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Tags anti-Islam incidents , benjamin netanyahu , Ilhan Omar , Rashida Tlaib , US-Israel relations

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Old 16th August 2019, 09:30 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Israel is a convenient tool for anti-semites. "I don't hate the Jews, I hate the Israelis. I don't say 'death to the Jews," I say 'death to Israel.' Actually I don't say 'death to Israel', I say "there must be a right of return.'"
How do you distinguish anti-Semitism from legitimate criticism of Israel?
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:37 AM   #82
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Israel is unique in that it's a country specifically created for a group of people, so I can't imagine the "Hey separating the group of people and country is going to be a little harder in this particular scenario" is blowing anyone's mind.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Israel is unique in that it's a country specifically created for a group of people, so I can't imagine the "Hey separating the group of people and country is going to be a little harder in this particular scenario" is blowing anyone's mind.
It's not hard, because Israel is supposedly a Democracy and that means that there are several ideological groups within the country. There's also a large diaspora of Jews outside of Israel. They are not all the same. They don't think the same and they don't act the same. Believing differently is deeply anti-Semitic.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:54 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Israel is unique in that it's a country specifically created for a group of people, so I can't imagine the "Hey separating the group of people and country is going to be a little harder in this particular scenario" is blowing anyone's mind.
Sounds pretty easy to me.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:04 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
You don’t understand why calling a person “a pure-bred Jew” strikes some as odd?
How do you function outside of the deepest south?
Not to mention mongrels. Where there are pure breds there must also be mongrels, amiwite?
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:29 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Not to mention mongrels. Where there are pure breds there must also be mongrels, amiwite?
I think they prefer, "Mutt".
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:39 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How do you distinguish anti-Semitism from legitimate criticism of Israel?

In some circles, there's no difference. In order for Israel to survive, they have to be able to do anything they feel is necessary, including things that would result in international protests and sanctions if another country did them. Therefore, any criticism of something Israel does is an attack on their very existence.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:50 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Israel is a convenient tool for anti-semites. "I don't hate the Jews, I hate the Israelis. I don't say 'death to the Jews," I say 'death to Israel.' Actually I don't say 'death to Israel', I say "there must be a right of return.'"
You just added even more stuff that uke2se never said. Putting more stuffing in the strawman doesn't make it real.

Stop making stuff up and retract this nonsense.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:20 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How do you distinguish anti-Semitism from legitimate criticism of Israel?
Pretty simple. How much time do they spend criticizing states other than Israel? Are they organizing boycotts of countries with far worse human rights records? Or is it just Israel?
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:29 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but you can argue that advocating the Destruction of Isarael is de facto Anti Semitic.
Not thrilled ,for instance, with that map of the Mideast Tlaib supposedly has in her congressional office with the words "Israel" crossed out and replaced by "Palestine".
I googled this, since it's the first I've heard of it, and I found some links. Those I recognized, I don't trust (Breitbart and WND), and many I don't know but most of them appear to be biased (judging from the domain name).

So, is it true? Is there a reliable source for this?
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:32 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I didn't say "Israel" or "the Israelis" either. I said Bibi Netanyahu.

I'm not expecting an apology, because your kind never apologizes.
You're the one throwing slurs like fascist and fascist adjacent around. I know, I know, your kind never really means fascist, it's just a term for people you don't like. But it is a bit ironic that you are the one supporting a movement that would destroy Israel. Herr Hitler would approve.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:52 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but you can argue that advocating the Destruction of Isarael is de facto Anti Semitic.
Not thrilled ,for instance, with that map of the Mideast Tlaib supposedly has in her congressional office with the words "Israel" crossed out and replaced by "Palestine".
So what if she does have a note saying "Palestine" pointing to Israel? As a Palestinian-American she is certainly entitled to that view. That doesn't mean she wants Israel destroyed. After all, the place was called Palestine before it was renamed by the Jewish People's Council and Jewish Agency for Palestine without Palestinian input or approval. I don't think anyone here can claim the Palestinians did't get a raw deal. That's not antisemitic; it's just the facts.
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:02 PM   #93
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The real weakness being displayed is by Bibi who is proudly showing his eagerness to kiss Trump's butt and the terrible fear that Bibi has for two women who want to talk.
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Pretty simple. How much time do they spend criticizing states other than Israel? Are they organizing boycotts of countries with far worse human rights records? Or is it just Israel?
Agreed. These same anti-Semites/anti-Tangerines also spend a disproportionate amount of time criticizing one particular head of state. Is Trump seriously worse than Berdimuhamedow?
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:56 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Pretty simple. How much time do they spend criticizing states other than Israel? Are they organizing boycotts of countries with far worse human rights records? Or is it just Israel?
So, in your view, an organization has to worry about every single displaced groups of people, and criticize every single state that engages in the **** that Israel does before it gets to criticize Israel?

Otherwise it's anti-Semitic?

Yeah... that's about the stupidest thing I've ever read here.
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:19 PM   #96
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Brainster, I'm going to make you the most generous offer I can possibly muster.

Let's imagine someone named Jim. Jim sincerely believes that Netanyahu's policies are unfair to Palestinians. I'm not going to debate whether or not Jim is right. I just want you to explain to me how Jim could voice his concern in a way that you don't refer to as anti-semitic. For example, if Jim were to say the following...

Originally Posted by Jim
I think Netanyahu's policies are unfair to Palestinians
Would that cross a line? If it does, then give me an example of how Jim could speak his mind without going too far. And if you don't think such a thing is possible, then that will explain quite a lot about how you perceive the problem.
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:30 PM   #97
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Guess who was sponsoring Ilhan and Rashida? A bunch of anti-semites:

Quote:
First, the group actually published blood libel, posting an article that accused “the Jews [of using] the blood of Christians in the Jewish Passover.” When pro-Israel bloggers condemned the article, Miftah first claimed that the attacks against the piece were part of a “smear campaign” and minimized the reference to blood libel as merely “briefly addressed.”
And:

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The organization later issued a more complete apology, but we’ve barely gotten started with this vile group. It’s also published an American neo-Nazi treatise called “Who Rules America: The Alien Grip on Our News and Entertainment Media Must Be Broken” (archived here).

As Vox’s Jane Coaston explained, “the original source was National Vanguard, a neo-Nazi group founded in 2005 in Charlottesville by members of the National Alliance.” The National Alliance “was for a time the best financed and best organized white nationalist group in America.”
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:31 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Pretty simple. How much time do they spend criticizing states other than Israel? Are they organizing boycotts of countries with far worse human rights records? Or is it just Israel?
So?

Would exerting more effort and time criticising, say, North Korea yield a more measureable outcome than doing so about Israel?

Sometimes we put more effort into calling out that which has more meaning, or which is more consequential, or which we love more. Just because a worse actor is comparatively ignored does not necessarily mean it is reviled less.

Railing away at a worse nation might be no more efficacious than trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Whereas directing one's ire at a more civilized miscreant could engender positive results

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Old 16th August 2019, 05:47 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Brainster, I'm going to make you the most generous offer I can possibly muster.

Let's imagine someone named Jim. Jim sincerely believes that Netanyahu's policies are unfair to Palestinians. I'm not going to debate whether or not Jim is right. I just want you to explain to me how Jim could voice his concern in a way that you don't refer to as anti-semitic. For example, if Jim were to say the following...



Would that cross a line? If it does, then give me an example of how Jim could speak his mind without going too far. And if you don't think such a thing is possible, then that will explain quite a lot about how you perceive the problem.
No, of course that does not cross a line. But how much time does Jim spend talking about the awful things Hamas has done?. If not, then I am curious about the attention paid to what is a tiny country (8 million population) of relatively minor significance.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:06 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No, of course that does not cross a line. But how much time does Jim spend talking about the awful things Hamas has done?. If not, then I am curious about the attention paid to what is a tiny country (8 million population) of relatively minor significance.
If Israel is of so little significance, how is it that it is treated as such an important player by so many people, including this and pretty much all previous US Presidents going back to it's founding?

Is it possible that you are trying to pull a fast one? You wouldn't lie, would you?
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:08 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
So?

Would exerting more effort and time criticising, say, North Korea yield a more measureable outcome than doing so about Israel?

Sometimes we put more effort into calling out that which has more meaning, or which is more consequential, or which we love more. Just because a worse actor is comparatively ignored does not necessarily mean it is reviled less.

Railing away at a worse nation might be no more efficacious than trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Whereas directing one's ire at a more civilized miscreant could engender positive results
No, but you see, as Brainster said, we can't ever criticize something if we don't also criticize everything else that's - to his standards - equally bad or worse. Because if we do, we are being hypocritical and anti-Semitic.

It's a wonderful system that means we never get to criticize anything that Brainster doesn't want us to criticize.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:20 PM   #102
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Ah yes the "Your criticism are not valid because you didn't also criticize X to some arbitrary amount of my own choosing" argument.

Listen, all cards on the table, I think damn near everyone involved in this whole kerfuffle is several Golden Retrievers short of a dog walking business and it is one of those fights that has gone on for so long it's essentially self feeding, there is no possible solution.

The Middle East area of modern Israel is one of the oldest continuously inhabited places in the world. There were probably people living in what is now Israel before they were technically modern humans. The gist of this is the very idea that any ethic/religious/cultural/which way you part your hair demographic has any sort of ancient "claim" to the area is laughable. The list of civilizations and cultures that have established, risen and fallen, and passed through the area is volumes in its length.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:23 PM   #103
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Tlaib and Omar were going to be let in, but only if they signed an agreement that they wouldn't say anything Israel didn't like them saying (my paraphrase). They rejected the offer. Tlaib was due to visit her grandmother, but felt her principles mattered more. Her grandmother is apparently quite disappointed not to see her, but proud of her decision.

I have to say, turning down an offer from a "democratic and free" society to be allowed in only if you muzzle yourself is a rather clever PR win.

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Old 16th August 2019, 06:36 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No, of course that does not cross a line. But how much time does Jim spend talking about the awful things Hamas has done?. If not, then I am curious about the attention paid to what is a tiny country (8 million population) of relatively minor significance.
To turn it around, you've criticized the things that Hamas has done. How much time have you spent criticizing the things that Israel has done?

I've refrained from commenting on this thread largely because I'm not as well-versed on this topic as I probably ought to be. However, objectively, this particular line of argument is an ad hominem. Either the criticism is valid or it isn't, regardless of what other criticisms the critic has or has not made.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:24 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Guess who was sponsoring Ilhan and Rashida? A bunch of anti-semites:



And:



It's troubling when a despicable group supports a political figure, isn't it? Especially so when the figure says things that can be interpreted as accepting the bigotry of the group. [1]

But the real issue here isn't whether Israel has the right to deny entry or even whether they might have good reasons to do so. The real issue is that they did so because the President of the United States wanted them to. He wanted to score a petty attack on elected representatives and prevent them from performing their duty and he did so by cajoling an ally to refuse their entry.

I think Israel shouldn't have done this to representatives of an allied nation, but it doesn't bother me nearly so much as the fact that Trump bullied them into it. That is the despicable part.

[1] This isn't a rhetorical question, Brainster. I wonder if you really find it troubling when a political figure receives support from bigots.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:28 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No, of course that does not cross a line. But how much time does Jim spend talking about the awful things Hamas has done?. If not, then I am curious about the attention paid to what is a tiny country (8 million population) of relatively minor significance.
Relatively minor significance?

In any case, it should be obvious why Muslims are concerned about Israeli treatment of Palestinians. People care about other members of their various subcultures, including members of their religion. If a Muslim has an objectively settled view that Israelis treat Palestinians badly, they are likely to be more passionate about this view than the average person.

They should also speak out against Hamas (don't know whether either of these two have), but there's a big difference. The US is supporting Israel with tax dollars.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:45 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Tlaib and Omar were going to be let in, but only if they signed an agreement that they wouldn't say anything Israel didn't like them saying (my paraphrase). They rejected the offer. Tlaib was due to visit her grandmother, but felt her principles mattered more. Her grandmother is apparently quite disappointed not to see her, but proud of her decision.

I have to say, turning down an offer from a "democratic and free" society to be allowed in only if you muzzle yourself is a rather clever PR win.
It smacks of a bad TV melodrama like The Good Fight. Bibi trying to use grandma as a pawn to get Tlaib to visit and make nice-nice.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:01 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It's troubling when a despicable group supports a political figure, isn't it? Especially so when the figure says things that can be interpreted as accepting the bigotry of the group. [1]

But the real issue here isn't whether Israel has the right to deny entry or even whether they might have good reasons to do so. The real issue is that they did so because the President of the United States wanted them to. He wanted to score a petty attack on elected representatives and prevent them from performing their duty and he did so by cajoling an ally to refuse their entry.

I think Israel shouldn't have done this to representatives of an allied nation, but it doesn't bother me nearly so much as the fact that Trump bullied them into it. That is the despicable part.
Trump bullied Netanyahu into keeping them out? Is that what you really believe? I don't mind admitting that I think it was a bit of political theatre for the benefit of the US audience, but I doubt that Netanyahu required a lot of prodding; Israel has already banned members numerous groups for supporting BDS.

Quote:
[1] This isn't a rhetorical question, Brainster. I wonder if you really find it troubling when a political figure receives support from bigots.
Not as much as when the support goes the other way, obviously, but yes, I will say that it very much troubles me to be on the same side at times as people I disagree with about such fundamental things. Did you ever notice the same thing about people whose politics you supposedly share?
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:51 AM   #109
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And now the nature of the group sponsoring the two US Congresswomen is starting to move mainstream.

Quote:
Miftah, a not-for-profit run by longtime Palestinian peace negotiator Hanan Ashrawi, was forced to apologize in 2013 after publishing an article on its website criticizing then-President Barack Obama for hosting a Passover Seder at the White House, JTA reported at the time.

“Does Obama in fact know the relationship, for example, between ‘Passover’ and ‘Christian blood’..?! Or ‘Passover’ and ‘Jewish blood rituals?!’” read the post. “Much of the chatter and gossip about historical Jewish blood rituals in Europe are real and not fake as they claim; the Jews used the blood of Christians in the Jewish Passover.”
They're not all anti-semites. Some, I am sure, are very nice people.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:06 AM   #110
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Trump bullied Netanyahu into keeping them out? Is that what you really believe? I don't mind admitting that I think it was a bit of political theatre for the benefit of the US audience, but I doubt that Netanyahu required a lot of prodding; Israel has already banned members numerous groups for supporting BDS.
It didn't happen before the tweet, but let's not quibble over whether Netenyahu was bullied into it. That term was perhaps unwisely chosen.

My issue is not with whether he bullied or merely persuaded Bibi to deny entry. It is that he said they should do so. Even if Israel had not reacted to the tweet, it is a despicable act for a president to use entry into another country as a cudgel to punish his elected political opponents. I can't recall any president ever before asking another nation to exact punishment on a political opponent -- let's add "elected" opponent just to avoid including rebels or terrorists we may have requested to be arrested.


Quote:
Not as much as when the support goes the other way, obviously, but yes, I will say that it very much troubles me to be on the same side at times as people I disagree with about such fundamental things. Did you ever notice the same thing about people whose politics you supposedly share?
I can't think of any politician I have supported who also had the support of a group I despise, but I'm sure that some have. Whether it bothers me or not depends on the details of that support.

If the support came from a bigoted group precisely because they believe that the pol shares their bigotry (say, the KKK support of Donald Trump[1]), I'd be appalled. Even then, it could be that the bigots are wildly misinterpreting the values of the pol, but the pol had damned well better say so explicitly if I am to interpret this in a neutral light. I'd be asking what has he said that leads the group to this belief? Could he really share their values? If so, can I support him?

We may, of course, apply this to the two reps under question. I don't have a firm opinion, because I don't know much about the anti-Semetic support and won't bother to dig into it because (1) they're not my reps and (2) I don't have a very positive opinion of them to begin with. I tend to think that they've done nothing dripping with bigotry so much as express concerns grossly inartfully, just another exhibit of the political immaturity of the Squad, but I could be wrong and they could be terrible anti-Semites. If so, that's a terrible fact, but it's not something I need to form an informed opinion on, since I ain't got a dog in this fight.

The best thing I can say about Tlaib and Omar is that it's refreshing in this time to see Muslim women in congress.

[1] I read an article yesterday quoting a Grand Poobah of the KKK saying precisely that Trump shares their values. It may be a bit difficult to dig it up, but I can try to do so if required.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:17 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No, of course that does not cross a line.
Okay, then why does referring to Netanyahu as a fascist cross the line? Maybe it's a hyperbolic, misguided insult, but anti-semitic? You'll have to explain that one for me.

And keep in mind, this is a thread where you have misrepresented your opponent multiple times and insinuated that he is aligned with Hitler.
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:52 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Pretty simple. How much time do they spend criticizing states other than Israel? Are they organizing boycotts of countries with far worse human rights records? Or is it just Israel?
Thanks for this. I’ll find this standard very useful to use against you and other conservatives every time you criticize someone but fail to criticize Trump for doing the same thing and probably worse.

Because guess what? Whatever it is, Trump probably did it too.

Pending you providing a link to your criticism of Trump’s anti-Semitic behavior, we can safely conclude by virtue of the Brainster Standard that your criticisms in this thread are insincere and have a more sinister, ulterior motive.
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:11 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Guess who was sponsoring Ilhan and Rashida? A bunch of anti-semites:

Trump regularly receives support from anti-Semites and other bigots, and sometimes even retweets them.

Have you criticized him for that?

If not, based on the Brainster Standard, we can safely conclude that your criticism is insincere and has a more sinister, ulterior motive.
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:47 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Because guess what? Whatever it is, Trump probably did it too.
Well, that was predictable.

Somehow, that won't matter as much because of (R)easons.
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Old 17th August 2019, 11:55 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Okay, then why does referring to Netanyahu as a fascist cross the line? Maybe it's a hyperbolic, misguided insult, but anti-semitic? You'll have to explain that one for me.

And keep in mind, this is a thread where you have misrepresented your opponent multiple times and insinuated that he is aligned with Hitler.
Keep in mind, this is a thread where my opponent has stated that both fascists and fascist adjacent have posted. Whom do you think were the fascists who posted in the thread?

I get that he doesn't like being compared to fascists. Neither do I.
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:37 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Keep in mind, this is a thread where my opponent has stated that both fascists and fascist adjacent have posted. Whom do you think were the fascists who posted in the thread?

I get that he doesn't like being compared to fascists. Neither do I.
The Scum's question wasn't about suggesting that members of this board are fascist adjacent. His question was whether calling Bibi a fascist is evidence of anti-Semitism.

Now, maybe you're saying that it isn't, that you overreacted because you were offended by other comments. If so, say it explicitly please. Because, at present, it sure seems like you're just changing the topic.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:59 PM   #117
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Is it ant-Semitic to assume that we ought to hold Israel to a higher standard than North Korea, for no other reason that Israel gets scads and scads of American money and military equipment, while NK gets none?

I mean, that's one very solid reason for the average American to hold Israel to a standard that we hold no other nation to. No other nation gets even half as much American money as Israel.

It's not a double standard - We want accountability for the outlay of funds.
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:22 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Is it ant-Semitic to assume that we ought to hold Israel to a higher standard than North Korea, for no other reason that Israel gets scads and scads of American money and military equipment, while NK gets none?



I mean, that's one very solid reason for the average American to hold Israel to a standard that we hold no other nation to. No other nation gets even half as much American money as Israel.



It's not a double standard - We want accountability for the outlay of funds.
But isn't it just easier to assume anyone with any criticism about anything is doing it for petulant, emotional reasons with partisan intent?
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:39 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The Scum's question wasn't about suggesting that members of this board are fascist adjacent. His question was whether calling Bibi a fascist is evidence of anti-Semitism.

Now, maybe you're saying that it isn't, that you overreacted because you were offended by other comments. If so, say it explicitly please. Because, at present, it sure seems like you're just changing the topic.
It wasn't IATS. Here's the post in question:

Quote:
There's fascists and fascist adjacent posting in this thread. Bibi Netanyahu is a fascist because of his fascist policies.
Leave Netanyahu out of it. Who are the fascists and fascists adjacent posting in the thread? As I said earlier, I get it, he doesn't really mean it, it's just a lazy way of saying "I disagree with you but cannot marshal any good evidence and arguments, so instead I'll call you a fascist and win the argument that way."
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Old 17th August 2019, 10:51 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
uke2se has not said a word about "the Jews." You should apologize.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Prepare for the double down.
Safely predicted.
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