IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd January 2023, 08:33 PM   #3601
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Dr. Donald Scott: Intergalactic Birkeland Currents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6VUy5Bt5Es

@ ~ 1:00;

Originally Posted by Scott
Birkeland currents don't only go between the Sun and the Earth, they go between the Sun and Saturn, and the Sun and Uranus, and Neptune......
.

Hannes Alfven:

Originally Posted by Alfven, 1939
The correlation of the magnetic storms and aurorae with the solar activity indicates that they are due to some agent emitted from the sun. As this agent causes magnetic and electric disturbances on the earth, it probably consists of charged particles. But, as Schuster has shown, the emission of a sufficient amount of particles, all having the same sign, is impossible because it would give rise to an enormous space charge. This difficulty is avoided if the emitted agent is assumed to consist of the equal amount of positive and negative particles.
Consequently the general nature of the current system during the main phase of a magnetic storm must be somewhat as follows. The stream approaching the earth contains positive and negative charge in equal amounts so that the electric current is zero.
Through the action of the magnetic field of the earth the paths of the positives and of the negatives become differentiated, but until the particles reach the forbidden region, the space charge is always zero because the positives and negatives neutralize each other.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin

Last edited by jonesdave116; 23rd January 2023 at 08:35 PM.
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2023, 08:36 PM   #3602
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Answered. Summarizing, we report important properties of CSs formed in the turbulent solar wind that are associated with electrons becoming the main current carriers.


Mainstream, you, have only recently “discovered” this.
Nope, currents in the solar wind have been known about for decades.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2023, 09:29 PM   #3603
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

Don Scott was right...outplayed by retired electrical engineer and neo-Velikovskian mythologist, ouch for the mainstream!

That is the execrable 'paper' where the clown tries to claim the Butterfly nebula (M2-9) is a z-pinch!

Here is a rough outline of what a z-pinch does;

>>>>>>>>>>>>*>>>>>>>>>>>

where > is the current and its direction of flow, and * is where it pinches.

And here is what we see from Doppler measurements of the M2-9 nebula;

<<<<<<<<<<<<*>>>>>>>>>>>

where < & > are the plasma and its direction of travel, and * is the central star.

M2-9: A PLANETARY NEBULA WITH AN ERUPTIVE NUCLEUS?
Balick, B. (1989!!!!)
https://adsabs.harvard.edu/pdf/1989AJ.....97..476B

See Fig. 2.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 12:38 AM   #3604
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Will you learn to read? The solar wind can contain currents. Got it? Is the solar wind as a whole a current, as claimed by the clown Scott? No, it isn't. As Alfven keeps telling you. Want me to quote him for the 20th time? Which part of this are you not understanding? What is the Debye length? What does it describe?
Do I need to draw a picture? Are Alfven's words too complicated for you?
You ok mate?

What the hell are you banging on about? Did you think one gianormous big power cable or something?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 01:09 AM   #3605
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Seems it’s pretty quite, magnetically, whilst whistling thru the centre of a force free electric current.
So again we get nothing, apart from your "current" claim.
Please show us in detail what you mean with this sentence.
There is no use discussing stuff if you cannot express yourself correctly.
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 01:11 AM   #3606
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
For prosperity...
If only you understood what was written.
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 01:23 AM   #3607
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

Quote:
Fig. 5: The pitch angle of the helical total magnetic field, B vector, that encircles a field-aligned current changes continuously with increasing radial distance from the central axis of the current.

There are no abrupt quantum jumps or breaks in this angle’s change or in the field’s magnitude. One cycle (0◦–360◦) of the pitch angle is shown. The cycle is sketched at eleven incrementally increasing sample values of radius.

The shaded arrows show the total magnetic field direction at each value of radius, r, and the white arrows show the field direction at an increment just below each of those values of radius
As observed in the switchbacks!
Then I am sure you can give clear examples of this "pitch angle rotation" at a switchback.

And why on Earth would one come up with "there are no abrupt quantum jumps". Who in his right mind would expect that there are "quantum jumps" in the magnetic field? Scott trying to make himself sound important.
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 01:42 AM   #3608
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Answered. Summarizing, we report important properties of CSs formed in the turbulent solar wind that are associated with electrons becoming the main current carriers.


Mainstream, you, have only recently “discovered” this.
Why would a current sheet be "quiet" as described by Dudok de Wit?
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 05:36 AM   #3609
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Why would a current sheet be "quiet" as described by Dudok de Wit?
Instead of force free you mean? Or?

Electrons carry the bulk of the current. All the little electrons all going the same direction bit like laminar flow.

Less noise that way, so they are “quite”. I’d hazard a guess and say they are hard to detect except to fly thru one.

Not some much “dark” but “quite”,

What were you thinking?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator

Last edited by Sol88; 24th January 2023 at 05:38 AM.
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 05:41 AM   #3610
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Lots of new papers to read. Cheers for the links.

Looking at reverse flux tubes in Saturn along with flux tubes in and out of the sun.

All electric fields and currents so far.

Oh, and the magnetic bit you look at.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 05:57 AM   #3611
W.D.Clinger
Illuminator
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,738
Quoting for posterity:
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
For prosperity...
Peach and bong strife.

Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
If only you understood what was written.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 07:14 AM   #3612
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Instead of force free you mean? Or?

Electrons carry the bulk of the current. All the little electrons all going the same direction bit like laminar flow.

Less noise that way, so they are “quite”. I’d hazard a guess and say they are hard to detect except to fly thru one.

Not some much “dark” but “quite”,

What were you thinking?
I am thinking that you actually mean "quite" instead of "quiet".
YOU bring up all kinds of stuff, and then ask an explanation from me????
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 07:40 AM   #3613
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 12,033
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
I am thinking that you actually mean "quite" instead of "quiet".
YOU bring up all kinds of stuff, and then ask an explanation from me????
Well Sol88 obviously needs someone to try to explain it. The understanding of the topic Sol88 has displayed in these threads is rather lacking. And Sol88's other self-researched sources certainly explain nothing.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 08:07 AM   #3614
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
You ok mate?

What the hell are you banging on about? Did you think one gianormous big power cable or something?
What are you banging on about? Other than a subject in which you are clearly clueless? The solar wind is not a current. Scott claims it is. That is impossible, as Alfven explained. Ergo, Scott is wrong, and your electric sun woo is impossible. However, we already knew that. That is why it does not exist in the peer-reviewed literature, and is only believed by the hard of thinking. It is flat earth level idiocy.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 08:18 AM   #3615
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

Did you think one gianormous big power cable or something?
That is what Scott claims. Do I need to explain your own woo to you? Again? He wants Birkeland currents coming from the Sun to power the aurorae. That is idiocy squared. As Alfven explained.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 12:15 PM   #3616
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
That is what Scott claims. Do I need to explain your own woo to you? Again? He wants Birkeland currents coming from the Sun to power the aurorae. That is idiocy squared. As Alfven explained.
I think Sol88 is lost, somehow.
He drops stuff in this thread, and then wants it explained.
And he makes EU claims, and then attacks them as if we made those claims (like the ginormous power cable or whatever).
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 01:39 PM   #3617
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
The particles reach the forbidden region??

What forbidden region?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 01:47 PM   #3618
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 12,033
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
The particles reach the forbidden region??

What forbidden region?
Well that sure came out of left field! You ok?
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 03:11 PM   #3619
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
The particles reach the forbidden region??

What forbidden region?
ScreenHunter_46 Jan. 24 22.07.jpg
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 03:34 PM   #3620
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Do you think Alvfen may like access to update his initial thoughts?


He’s still on the money considering...
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 03:40 PM   #3621
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
I think Sol88 is lost, somehow.
He drops stuff in this thread, and then wants it explained.
And he makes EU claims, and then attacks them as if we made those claims (like the ginormous power cable or whatever).
I’m assuming you’ve read some of the papers you’ve linked to?

Those outgoing positive flux tubes seem to have nested negative flux tubes in side. The centre of which is force free electron current.

Like Don Scott has mentioned and did some maths on too. I believe some people had a problem with alpha and no boundary or some such. Well...

Seems there are “lots” of them. Nested bundles of flux tubes.

When these things reconnect....
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 03:42 PM   #3622
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Seems like the solar wind is only quasi neutral if you go to the scales oh MHD, otherwise structure all the way down....

Electric fields, including double layers, funnily enough.

__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 03:45 PM   #3623
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Do you think Alvfen may like access to update his initial thoughts?


He’s still on the money considering...
He got some of the detail wrong on the interaction, but it was basically sound. And it does not require the solar wind to be a current! As he said, that is impossible. And he certainly never changed his mind on that.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 03:47 PM   #3624
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Seems like the solar wind is only quasi neutral if you go to the scales oh MHD, otherwise structure all the way down....

Electric fields, including double layers, funnily enough.

Nope, it is quasi-neutral by definition, as it has to be. The definition, that is, of those with a clue. Unlike clueless EEs.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 03:48 PM   #3625
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
I’m assuming you’ve read some of the papers you’ve linked to?

Those outgoing positive flux tubes seem to have nested negative flux tubes in side. The centre of which is force free electron current.
Where the hell did anyone say that? You don't understand what you are reading. Why would you? Just accept that and move on.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 05:38 PM   #3626
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Where the hell did anyone say that? You don't understand what you are reading. Why would you? Just accept that and move on.
Got a new term for you Evershed flows and counter Evershed flows

Just brushing up now as they seem to have relevance for
Switchbacks in the Near-Sun Magnetic Field: Long Memory and Impact on the Turbulence Cascade


Quote:
These properties, and in particular the long memory of the rate of occurrence of switchbacks, are compatible with a physical picture in which these structures are the signature of kinked magnetic flux tubes that are moving past the spacecraft. The combined long memory and high anisotropy of these events offer favorable conditions for anomalous particle transport.

Electron-to-ion Bulk Speed Ratio as a Parameter Reflecting the Occurrence of Strong Electron-dominated Current Sheets in the Solar Wind

Quote:
Abstract

Current sheets (CSs) are preferred sites of magnetic reconnection and energy dissipation in astrophysical plasmas. Electric currents in them may be carried by both electrons and ions.

In our prior theoretical studies of the CS formation in turbulent plasmas, we utilized fully kinetic and hybrid code simulations with ions considered as particles and electrons—as a massless fluid.

We found that electron-dominated CSs in which electrons become the main carriers of the electric current and contributors to energy dissipation may form inside or nearby ion-dominated CSs.
Quote:
Contrary to the magnetosphere, there have not been investigations of properties of CSs determined by the electron currents in the heliosphere so far.

Studies of CSs in the solar wind are focused on ion CSs only.
Quote:
Theoretical studies predict that ion- and electron-dominated CSs may be observed by a spacecraft in different ways.

First, a thin electron-dominated CS can be embedded in the wider ion-dominated CS (Malova et al. 2017).

Second, spatially separated electric currents in which electrons and ions are main carriers may form at reconnecting CSs, due to the effect of partial separation of charges (Zharkova & Khabarova 2012, 2015; Khabarova et al. 2020).
Quote:
Numerical studies of the CS formation in turbulent plasmas by fully kinetic and by hybrid code simulations (in which ions are considered as particles and electrons as a fluid) found that thin electron-scale CSs can be formed inside ion scale thicker CSs (e.g., Malova et al. 2017; Azizabadi et al.2021).

Simulations done for the magnetospheric conditions suggest that electron-dominated CSs can also exist independently of ion CSs (see, e.g., Zelenyi et al. 2020 and references therein)


What say ye, jd116? Don Scott correct?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 05:40 PM   #3627
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Is the solar wind considered a turbulent plasma/s, jd116?

Or a big power cable with a gazzillion gamma rays frying Earth or whatever it is you bang on about when it gets a bit hot under your feet.

Are you capable?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 05:49 PM   #3628
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post


What say ye, jd116? Don Scott correct?
Not. Even. Close. Birkeland currents do not leave the Sun. The solar wind is quasi-neutral. Zero net current. As it must be. As Alfven told us. He was right, the clown Scott is wrong. Unsurprisingly.

Do you agree with Alfven, or the engineer? Is the sum of the charge of the total number of positive charges leaving the Sun, the same as the sum of the negative charges leaving the Sun?

Alfven, or Scott? Make your mind up. That will tell us a whole lot about your understanding, or lack thereof, of the subject.

We detect ~ equal numbers of ions and electrons in the ecliptic. Which direction are they heading in? Are they both going the same way? As they must, given that the magnetic field is heading outwards. Or are the ions heading out, and the electrons heading in (impossibly)?

Basic plasma physics, or Scott?
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 05:57 PM   #3629
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Is the solar wind considered a turbulent plasma/s, jd116?

Or a big power cable with a gazzillion gamma rays frying Earth or whatever it is you bang on about when it gets a bit hot under your feet.

Are you capable?
What the hell are you prattling on about now? Of course it can be turbulent. Ever heard of CMEs? Waves? CIRs?

And what the hell have gamma rays got to do with anything? That is what would have prevented our evolution if, as the dozy clown Scott claims, the fusion which produces the detected neutrinos was occurring on the surface/ in the atmosphere of the Sun. Fusion = gamma rays. Gamma rays = death. You need to put the fusion somewhere where the mean free path of those gamma photons is tiny, so they lose a whole lot of energy on the way out of the Sun. That would be the core. Putting it on the surface/ in the atmosphere, would have rendered this planet uninhabitable long since.

So, let's add nuclear physics to plasma physics as subjects in which Scott is demonstrably clueless. However, we already knew that.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 07:25 PM   #3630
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Not. Even. Close. Birkeland currents do not leave the Sun. The solar wind is quasi-neutral. Zero net current. As it must be. As Alfven told us. He was right, the clown Scott is wrong. Unsurprisingly.

Do you agree with Alfven, or the engineer? Is the sum of the charge of the total number of positive charges leaving the Sun, the same as the sum of the negative charges leaving the Sun?

Alfven, or Scott? Make your mind up. That will tell us a whole lot about your understanding, or lack thereof, of the subject.

We detect ~ equal numbers of ions and electrons in the ecliptic. Which direction are they heading in? Are they both going the same way? As they must, given that the magnetic field is heading outwards. Or are the ions heading out, and the electrons heading in (impossibly)?

Basic plasma physics, or Scott?
First, a thin electron-dominated CS can be embedded in the wider ion-dominated CS (Malova et al. 2017).



Your maths was wrong!




Id be embarrassed too, whilst doubling down on incorrect dogma!
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 07:51 PM   #3631
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
First, a thin electron-dominated CS can be embedded in the wider ion-dominated CS (Malova et al. 2017).



Your maths was wrong!




Id be embarrassed too, whilst doubling down on incorrect dogma!
Which has precisely nothing to do with the idiotic claim that the solar wind is a current. Alfven told you why that is impossible. You are reading things that you don't understand. As usual.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 07:59 PM   #3632
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
First, a thin electron-dominated CS can be embedded in the wider ion-dominated CS (Malova et al. 2017).



Your maths was wrong!




Id be embarrassed too, whilst doubling down on incorrect dogma!
Is that this paper?;

EVIDENCE FOR QUASI-ADIABATIC MOTION OF CHARGED PARTICLES IN STRONG CURRENT SHEETS IN THE SOLAR WIND
Malova, H. V. et al (2017)
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...7/834/1/34/pdf

The one in which they say;

Originally Posted by Malova, et al
As for magnetized electrons, because of their small gyroradii, their motion can be described in the drift approximation (Zelenyi et al. 2004). The electrons are assumed to be fast enough to support a quasi equilibrium Boltzmann distribution, and the condition of quasi-neutrality ni ≈ ne is also assumed.
My bolding.

That the one? What about it?
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2023, 11:36 PM   #3633
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Second, spatially separated electric currents in which electrons and ions are main carriers may form at reconnecting CSs, due to the effect of partial separation of charges (Zharkova & Khabarova 2012, 2015; Khabarova et al. 2020).
My bolding.

PARTICLE DYNAMICS IN THE RECONNECTING HELIOSPHERIC CURRENT SHEET: SOLAR WIND DATA VERSUS THREE-DIMENSIONAL PARTICLE-IN-CELL SIMULATIONS
Zharkova, V. V. & Khabarova, O. V. (2012)
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...X/752/1/35/pdf

Originally Posted by Zharkova & Khabarova, 2012
The distribution of a charge density ρ(x), which generates the polarization field E˜x(x), is shown in Figure 14 for different profiles of this electric field Zharkova & Agapitov (2009). This charge density distribution is likely to reflect the distributions of transit and bounced protons inside the current sheet described in Section 3.2.1 (see Figure 11) where the larger central peak measured in the plot (Figure 14) is formed by the bounced protons while the two smaller peaks at about ±1 × rpz are formed by the transit protons. Note that the average charge density over the simulation region is close to zero, which mean that the current sheet as a whole remains electrically neutral.
My bolding.

Now, what could they possibly mean by that? I think they mean what you have been told all along, and don't seem to be able to grasp. Then again, who can blame you, when the high priests you follow, who sell you this nonsense, can't understand it themselves?

That is why engineers should stick to engineering. Scott's nonsense reminds one of the Salem Hypothesis.

Originally Posted by Rational Wiki
The Salem Hypothesis is the observation of an apparent correlation between the engineering trade and creationist beliefs (possibly due to crank magnetism, this can also include climate-change denial and other crackpot beliefs).
My bolding.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin

Last edited by jonesdave116; 24th January 2023 at 11:38 PM.
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 12:40 AM   #3634
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Quote:
No electron-dominated CSs have been observed in the solar wind before because it was supposed that they should have an electron-scale width unresolvable by spacecraft.

This study shows the first example of a CS with the current driven by electrons as observed by the MMS mission in the solar wind, outside the magnetosphere and the foreshock area.
Tusenfem should be a full bottle on this example.

Nested draped magnetic fields...mmmmmm?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 12:52 AM   #3635
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Do you think Alvfen may like access to update his initial thoughts?


He’s still on the money considering...
Somehow I doubt he will be able to do that ...
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 01:00 AM   #3636
tusenfem
Illuminator
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,172
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
So just to make the discussion even muddier, you come up with something you found on the web, which deals with flows on the surface of the Sun, either away from a penumbra or in fewer cases towards the penumbra.

We will ignore this, thank you very much.
__________________
Scientific progress goes *BOINK* -- Calvin & Hobbes
twitter: @tusenfem -- Super Duper Space Plasma Physicist
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 01:01 AM   #3637
The Man
Unbanned zombie poster
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 16,900
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
My bolding.

PARTICLE DYNAMICS IN THE RECONNECTING HELIOSPHERIC CURRENT SHEET: SOLAR WIND DATA VERSUS THREE-DIMENSIONAL PARTICLE-IN-CELL SIMULATIONS
Zharkova, V. V. & Khabarova, O. V. (2012)
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...X/752/1/35/pdf



My bolding.

Now, what could they possibly mean by that? I think they mean what you have been told all along, and don't seem to be able to grasp. Then again, who can blame you, when the high priests you follow, who sell you this nonsense, can't understand it themselves?

That is why engineers should stick to engineering. Scott's nonsense reminds one of the Salem Hypothesis.



My bolding.
Oh no, jonesdave116 there could be electrons going the other way that are hidden inside the Ions going out!!! (apparent assertion 1)

Oops, but them electrons go out as well.

Wait, it could be an AC powered electric sun instead of DC. Charges just oscillate back and forth (apparent assertion 2, a couple of posts back)!!!

While this is far better and solves the problem of charging the sun. First it wasn't directly stated and I only inferred it from what was posted. Second it still doesn't match observational evidence as them nasty old ions would have to oscillate back and forth as well.

Still, the direct assertion of "Electrons carry the bulk of the current" is the most ridiculous (which was the reason for the inference of apparent assertion 2) and again shows a fixation on wires. Where positive ions are bound in a crystallin structure and electrons are modeled as an oscillating gas that "carry the bulk of the current". Don't work in plasma, where both are in a gaseous state. Yes, plasma is a gaseous state of matter (hot and cold). The very thing extoled, plasma, precludes such singular charged particle carriers of power (energy over time). In AC , basically RMS transferrer of power, as in a household AC circuit. Which of course still requires a loop to the energy source. Never identified and falls to the same problem stated, of electrons entering the heliopause which would now be both ions and electrons going back and forth through it.

Oh, but they just duck under for a moment or two. Inside the ions or wherever hasn't been directly measured yet. Heck, no wonder they went into the EU. They don't appear to be good Electricians let alone Electrical Engineers. Gots to make money somehow.
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ

Last edited by The Man; 25th January 2023 at 01:12 AM. Reason: typos
The Man is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 01:22 AM   #3638
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
So just to make the discussion even muddier, you come up with something you found on the web, which deals with flows on the surface of the Sun, either away from a penumbra or in fewer cases towards the penumbra.

We will ignore this, thank you very much.
and on Saturn

Magnetic field characters of returning flux tubes in Saturn's magnetosphere

The return current!
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 01:24 AM   #3639
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
yup tuck and roll..

Quote:
We found that electron-dominated CSs in which electrons become the main carriers of the electric current and contributors to energy dissipation may form inside or nearby ion-dominated CSs.
Like Scott said...
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2023, 01:27 AM   #3640
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
So just to make the discussion even muddier, you come up with something you found on the web, which deals with flows on the surface of the Sun, either away from a penumbra or in fewer cases towards the penumbra.

We will ignore this, thank you very much.
Thought so...

Not just found on the surface of the sun are they now!

Seen your name pop up.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.