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Old 23rd January 2023, 03:41 AM   #2281
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God knows which option you will choose. And that's why He brings such options in front of you that the good or evil in you is revealed. In other words, He makes you face yourself.
You believe I can choose another option than the one God knows that I’ll choose?
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Old 23rd January 2023, 05:02 AM   #2282
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God creates person knowing prior to creation everything that person will do. Person has no option to do otherwise than what the infallible god knows it will.

God creates person "knowing" prior to creation everything that person will do. Person has actual free will and chooses to do other than what the god foresaw. Puny god.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 05:07 AM   #2283
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Or it is “free” will like the “free” elections in the old Soviet Union where you have only single choice to select between.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 05:15 AM   #2284
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Or it is “free” will like the “free” elections in the old Soviet Union where you have only single choice to select between.
An omnipotent and infallible god can define "free" however it wishes. It could even provide every individual with their own unique definition of the word.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 05:52 AM   #2285
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God knows which option you will choose.
Again, that means that god knows IN ADVANCE what choices EVERYONE will make, from now until forever. He knows which rocks are going to fall and where they will fall towards people. And he knows IN ADVANCE which way the people who are in the way will choose to jump. So he knows IN ADVANCE what all those choices will be.

Is that your theory correct so far?
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Old 23rd January 2023, 11:03 AM   #2286
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“Free” as in “free fall”.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 01:30 PM   #2287
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
God knows which option you will choose.
No, it's not just foreknowledge. In Islam, القضاء والقدر means God has commanded the outcome. It's predestination.

Quote:
And that's why He brings such options in front of you that the good or evil in you is revealed.
God has already decreed outcome, so it's not really an experiment. Revealing it to the individual Muslim is pointless, because there was never anything he could have done to avoid it.

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In other words, He makes you face yourself. And that's why you understand why you are going to paradise. or why you are going to hell.
It's a great religion whose God brings people into existence just to send them to an unavoidable hell.

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Read my article.
Your article is naive and childish. It merely regurgitates without sophistication the same old dilemma that all religions face when they try to reconcile an all-powerful and all-knowing deity with the notion of the free will that justifies punishment. Aristotle didn't even believe in free will, but he did a much better job of covering the subject than you do.

Give it up. You're not the brilliant thinker you fancy yourself to be.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 01:55 PM   #2288
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The Qur'an is the only book that analyses fate and free will:

https://www.answering-christianity.c...kVIw5FMblDqWA8

God knows what we are going to do even before He creates us. He knows how we will react to which option and accordingly writes our destiny.

Meanwhile, the Pew Research Centre says that by 2050 Islam will be the religion with the largest number of believers in the world. But I think this will happen in 2025 at the latest.

https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-conte...hange310px.png
Rubbish, but of course you know that.
It must be terrible to have to do all this screaming of nonsense to try and quiet that voice in your head that tells you the truth.
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Old 24th January 2023, 12:28 AM   #2289
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
You believe I can choose another option than the one God knows that I’ll choose?
Of course, you can choose. But you won't. It's one thing to be able to do it, it's another to do it.
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Old 24th January 2023, 03:35 AM   #2290
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Again, that means that god knows IN ADVANCE what choices EVERYONE will make, from now until forever. He knows which rocks are going to fall and where they will fall towards people. And he knows IN ADVANCE which way the people who are in the way will choose to jump. So he knows IN ADVANCE what all those choices will be.

Is that your theory correct so far?
Answer my question, please, Emre. Don't ignore this.
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Old 24th January 2023, 06:11 AM   #2291
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Of course, you can choose. But you won't. It's one thing to be able to do it, it's another to do it.
You won't because you can't. Choosing to other than what the god knows in advance that you will do will make the god fallible. And no religion can survive with a fallible god, thus the pretense.
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Old 24th January 2023, 06:33 AM   #2292
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
You won't because you can't.
No, you can, but you won't. Because you chose this option of your own free will. Allah knows the choice you will choose.
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Old 24th January 2023, 07:33 AM   #2293
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, you can, but you won't. Because you chose this option of your own free will. Allah knows the choice you will choose.
Logical contradictions are the only way to make your (actually non-existent) god appear infallible. Pathetic argument.
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Old 24th January 2023, 08:28 AM   #2294
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, you can, but you won't. Because you chose this option of your own free will. Allah knows the choice you will choose.
Again you're confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Islam teaches the latter, although Sunnīs and Shīʿas differ in their presentation of it. If you don't know the difference between foreknowledge and predestination, then you're a rookie in this debate. But I do find it hilarious that you don't want to discuss the actual doctrines. You seem no more interested than in peddling your web site and smugly claiming to be superior to Christians and Jews—a claim few here care about.
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Old 24th January 2023, 01:33 PM   #2295
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Of course, you can choose. But you won't. It's one thing to be able to do it, it's another to do it.
So why won’t I do anything else than what your God has decided? It sounds pretty deterministic to me: no choice of mine is involved.
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Old 24th January 2023, 02:21 PM   #2296
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So, still no evidence that god is real then? Or that the Quran is anything more than poorly written fanfiction?
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Old 24th January 2023, 03:15 PM   #2297
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Seems that Emre_1974tr has no interest in evidence. It interferes with, and contradicts, proselytizing.
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Old 24th January 2023, 03:43 PM   #2298
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Seems that Emre_1974tr has no interest in evidence. It interferes with, and contradicts, proselytizing.
He can't even get the other Muslims at the site where he posts his articles to engage with him.
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Old 24th January 2023, 04:17 PM   #2299
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Again, that means that god knows IN ADVANCE what choices EVERYONE will make, from now until forever. He knows which rocks are going to fall and where they will fall towards people. And he knows IN ADVANCE which way the people who are in the way will choose to jump. So he knows IN ADVANCE what all those choices will be.

Is that your theory correct so far?
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Answer my question, please, Emre. Don't ignore this.
Hurry up, please, Emre. You have not answered my question in two days, even though you have been here. One would start to think you don't have the courage of your convictions, nor does your god measure up very well.
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Old 24th January 2023, 05:04 PM   #2300
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
So why won’t I do anything else than what your God has decided? It sounds pretty deterministic to me: no choice of mine is involved.
Because you made your choice. You'll make the choice you made with your free will. Let's say you have choice A or B. You choose option A. You could have chosen option B, but you didn't.
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Old 24th January 2023, 05:05 PM   #2301
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Because you made your choice. You'll make the choice you made with your free will. Let's say you have choice A or B. You choose option A. You could have chosen option B, but you didn't.
What am I, stale manoush? Answer, please.
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Old 24th January 2023, 05:22 PM   #2302
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Because you made your choice. You'll make the choice you made with your free will. Let's say you have choice A or B. You choose option A. You could have chosen option B, but you didn't.

The "choice" in your argument was predetermined by a god that knew what "choice" its creation would make before said creation. The act of creation removed the possibility of any actual choice. IOW no choice at all.
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Old 24th January 2023, 09:06 PM   #2303
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The "choice" in your argument was predetermined by a god that knew what "choice" its creation would make before said creation. The act of creation removed the possibility of any actual choice. IOW no choice at all.

I love the part where someone claims they’re the only one who has “analyzed” a problem, but they’re still not aware of what the problem actually is.
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Old 25th January 2023, 02:22 AM   #2304
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Because you made your choice. You'll make the choice you made with your free will. Let's say you have choice A or B. You choose option A. You could have chosen option B, but you didn't.
How exactly could I have chosen something else than what your deterministic God has already decided?
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Old 25th January 2023, 11:32 AM   #2305
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
How exactly could I have chosen something else than what your deterministic God has already decided?
No, he doesn't decide what you choose. You decide and He knows your decision.

He knows what you're going to do, not because you're a robot. God is timeless and spaceless. He does not travel in time and space.

You choose freely as a truly free willed being and God knows what you will choose.

For Allah there is no distinction between present, past or future time.
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Old 25th January 2023, 11:44 AM   #2306
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, he doesn't decide what you choose. You decide and He knows your decision.

He knows what you're going to do, not because you're a robot. God is timeless and spaceless. He does not travel in time and space.

You choose freely as a truly free willed being and God knows what you will choose.

For Allah there is no distinction between present, past or future time.

That's more restrictive than being a robot. Robots can at least move. If we're just figures in a time crystal we actually don't move or do anything at all. Like the text in a novel or the images on the frames of a movie film. From a timeless spaceless viewpoint, God can only perceive a static object with no motion or change. Motion, change, thoughts, and actions can only exist within time.
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Old 25th January 2023, 12:21 PM   #2307
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Emre, do you have any evidence that god is real?
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Old 25th January 2023, 01:37 PM   #2308
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, he doesn't decide what you choose. You decide and He knows your decision.
But that's not the doctrine of Islam. Islam explicitly teaches predestination. That means God has decided what the outcome will be before creating you. Just because you don't know that he has done this, and because you don't know the predetermined outcome, doesn't give you free will sufficient to be held accountable for your actions after you are created.

Quote:
You choose freely as a truly free willed being and God knows what you will choose.
No. Because God has omnipotently predetermined the outcome, it is impossible for you to act any other way. Just because you're not aware of this process doesn't suddenly give you a meaningful choice.

You really haven't thought much about this at all.
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Old 25th January 2023, 02:45 PM   #2309
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, he doesn't decide what you choose. You decide and He knows your decision.

He knows what you're going to do, not because you're a robot. God is timeless and spaceless. He does not travel in time and space.

You choose freely as a truly free willed being and God knows what you will choose.

For Allah there is no distinction between present, past or future time.
I still don’t see how I can choose something that your God has not predetermined. You think it is free will if I don’t know that it is predetermined?
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Old 25th January 2023, 03:00 PM   #2310
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post

You really haven't thought much about this at all.
Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I still don’t see how I can choose something that your God has not predetermined. You think it is free will if I don’t know that it is predetermined?

The way the religious mind works (or refuses to work) will always be a mystery to the atheist.

Logical argument contesting nonsensical beliefs, are just brushed aside because the faithful just knows he is right.

I admire the persistence of those here that try however.
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Old 25th January 2023, 03:31 PM   #2311
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The way the religious mind works (or refuses to work) will always be a mystery to the atheist.

Logical argument contesting nonsensical beliefs, are just brushed aside because the faithful just knows he is right.

I admire the persistence of those here that try however.
Agreed.

Essentially (there are several variations on this sentence): "You cannot reason people out of something they were not reasoned into".

Most religious persons will believe in and fight for what they perceive to be a major tenet of their religion regardless of how absurd that belief may actually be.
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Old 25th January 2023, 11:16 PM   #2312
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I still don’t see how I can choose something that your God has not predetermined. You think it is free will if I don’t know that it is predetermined?
Well, in Emre_1974 Islam I suppose it is possible, which would make his version of god all knowing, but otherwise powerless.
Emre's Allah can only observe and punish afterward, but has no power to act within the world at all.

Sorta like Robert Jordan's Creator I guess.

An interesting fanfiction of Islam, but not actually the faith itself I guess.
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Old 26th January 2023, 01:13 AM   #2313
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It goes like this:

Mere human: Well, it's a choice of A or B. Using my free will, I choose A.

Allah: I knew that forever.

Mere human: Oh, OK, then I choose B.

Allah: I knew that forever too.

Mere human: OK, smarty-pants. I'm deciding to choose neither.

Allah: I knew that forever too.

Mere human: So is EVERYTHING I do is known by you since forever?

Allah: Of course! I am the all-knowing!

Mere human: Then that means you know everything that will happen so that I make these choices. Correct?

Allah: Of course! I am the all-knowing!

Mere human: Could you stop any of these things happening? Like killer plagues? Or make things happen? Like evil people not being born?

Allah: I must do them. Otherwise you would not make the choices I already know you will make.

Mere human: Then isn't that exactly the same as you NOT stopping bad things happening? Or NOT making good things happen? Just like as if you didn't exist?

Allah: ...JUST BELIEVE IN ME AND WORSHIP MINDLESSLY OR I WILL CUT YOUR HAND OFF!
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Old 26th January 2023, 01:17 AM   #2314
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If God already knows everything that's going to happen then surely that means God has no free will?
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Old 26th January 2023, 04:47 AM   #2315
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, He knows what we will do with our free will. You can do the opposite, but you won't.
If allah knows what we are voing to do ahead of time we do not have free will, because our course is set before we "decide" on it.
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Old 26th January 2023, 04:53 AM   #2316
steenkh
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
If God already knows everything that's going to happen then surely that means God has no free will?
You mean if God knows in advance what God will do? Yes, I think it can be argued that God has no free will.

In any case Emre’s God has the usual problem of the three omnis: all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good. Or perhaps Emre’s God is not benevolent? That could explain a lot.

Emre, is your God good? And if yes, is he always good?
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Old 26th January 2023, 05:34 AM   #2317
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
You mean if God knows in advance what God will do? Yes, I think it can be argued that God has no free will.

In any case Emre’s God has the usual problem of the three omnis: all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good. Or perhaps Emre’s God is not benevolent? That could explain a lot.

Emre, is your God good? And if yes, is he always good?
Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness.

There is no present, past or future time for Allah. He is outside of time. He is also outside of space. We are the ones travelling in time and space. God does not learn later, He knows from the beginning.

If God wants, He can throw the good people to hell instead of paradise. But He never does that. The fact that he knows what to do does not prevent his free will. In the same way, we know that God will create us again and send us to paradise or hell. The fact that we know what Allah will do in the future does not contradict His free will. We know the results of free choices.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 26th January 2023 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 26th January 2023, 05:42 AM   #2318
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness.

There is no present, past or future time for Allah. He is outside of time. He is also outside of space. We are the ones travelling in time and space. God does not learn later, He knows from the beginning.

If God wants, He can throw the good people to hell instead of paradise. But He never does that. The fact that he knows what to do does not prevent his free will. In the same way, we know that God will create us again and send us to paradise or hell. The fact that we know what Allah will do in the future does not contradict His free will. We know the results of free choices.
Your Allah sounds like a nasty god who likes to hurt people, while making that punishment sound like it is a good thing. Why should anyone worship a tyrant?

My free will says Allah is imaginary, he does not exist. So if Allah knew that then it is true. But if it is true then he doesn't exist. So how could he know that if he doesn't exist? Bit of a problem, Emre.
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 26th January 2023 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 26th January 2023, 05:59 AM   #2319
Gulliver Foyle
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, he doesn't decide what you choose. You decide and He knows your decision.

He knows what you're going to do, not because you're a robot. God is timeless and spaceless. He does not travel in time and space.

You choose freely as a truly free willed being and God knows what you will choose.

For Allah there is no distinction between present, past or future time.
But under your formualtion I have no choice because there is no indeterminacy ahead of time. Because allah knows the outcome ahead of time, I am not in a position to be able to choose, because my choice could render allah's knowledge to be wrong, rendering him imperfect and therefore not the god of the qu'ran.
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Old 26th January 2023, 06:04 AM   #2320
Gulliver Foyle
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Well, in Emre_1974 Islam I suppose it is possible, which would make his version of god all knowing, but otherwise powerless.
Emre's Allah can only observe and punish afterward, but has no power to act within the world at all.

Sorta like Robert Jordan's Creator I guess.

An interesting fanfiction of Islam, but not actually the faith itself I guess.
Perfect foreknowledge always leads to perfect powerlessness. Because if you know how everything is going to turn out, you have no choice in your actions. And to have power you must first of all be able to choose.
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