Continuation JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII

[kookbreaker]

I read somewhere that Nixon, by rights, should have been the biggest asassination target given that he at one point authorized a top-to-bottom audit of the CIA when they missed several important political events. He griped that they had tens of thousands of people just sitting around reading foreign newspapers. Not sure about the reality of this since I couldn’t find anything about it.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

I read somewhere that Nixon, by rights, should have been the biggest asassination target given that he at one point authorized a top-to-bottom audit of the CIA when they missed several important political events. He griped that they had tens of thousands of people just sitting around reading foreign newspapers. Not sure about the reality of this since I couldn’t find anything about it.

The CIA was a mess under Nixon. They had zero ethics. Pinochet's was a Nixon/CIA brainchild that nobody outside of the NSC thought was a good idea.

Plus, a good number of the JFK CTs were generated under Nixon by CIA agents repeating old gossip from 1964.

[Hans]

If it wouldn't be too much of a divergence, I had a question or thought!

If someone would try to assassinate a US President today and lets just imagine that JFK had not died and a modern president was going to a meeting in Dallas and would go by the Book depository in a motorcade how would an attempt by a lone gun man turn out today?

Obviously his 6.5 rifle isn't going to suffice, so what is a long gunman to do?

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Hans

If it wouldn't be too much of a divergence, I had a question or thought!

If someone would try to assassinate a US President today and lets just imagine that JFK had not died and a modern president was going to a meeting in Dallas and would go by the Book depository in a motorcade how would an attempt by a lone gun man turn out today?

Obviously his 6.5 rifle isn't going to suffice, so what is a long gunman to do?

Hard to say. Most of the Secret Service protocols used today come from the JFK Assassination combined with modern counter-terrorist technologies. The current Presidential limo is a glorified tank, and the Secret Service has a hardcore advance team that would have made sure all of the windows in the TSBD were closed, and all the rooftops would have counter-sniper teams on the lookout.

Pretending that an unarmored limo with no bubble-top were to roll through Dealey Plaza today a guy with an AR-15 with a red-dot scope could kill everyone in the limo, reload, and kill more people until SWAT stormed the building. Or if the shooter was fancy he'd use a 6.5 Creedmore-chambered Ruger with a 10-round magazine for that explosive headshot.

[Pacal]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Today is the anniversary of the coup and assassination of Diem in Vietnam. It's important because it drove the US involvement deeper into Vietnam's civil war, and it is relevant to the JFK assassination CT's because they are ALL founded upon the myth that JFK hated the CIA, and wanted to smash it into little pieces.

The truth is that JFK expanded the CIA's reach beyond its charter.

The National Security Archives just released a report along with the original, newly declassified documents from the JFK NSC which show that JFK was directly involved in the decision to launch and back a coup than previously stated.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...8-6e40ae0d7697




The report details RFK's opposition to the coup.

The other reason I'm posting this is that THIS WHAT A REAL ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY LOOKS LIKE. The Diem assassination has been fully and accurately revealed since the late 1960s in the press with witnesses and agents speaking on the record about what happened long before the first documents were declassified.

Unlike the JFK assassination CTs, the story never changed, the facts never changed, and with each new declassified document the story only became more solid.

I don't find anything in this new. It has been known for quite sometime that JFK was involved in the Diem coup, although certain details were lacking. This recent revelation does do damage to two pillars of both the St. John of Kennedy mythos and the conspiracy crap.

First the fantasy story that JFK would have withdrawn from Vietnam if he had not been assassinated. Well if JFK was involved in Diem's removal, and thus indirectly in his assassination, I doubt JFK was thinking about leaving Vietnam anytime soon.

Secondly it further supports the notion that JFK was well integrated into the CIA view of the World and with covert extension of American power and thus absolutely no threat to the "Military Industrial complex", but a devote servant of it. (I am also amused by JFK groupies ignoring Operation Mongoose.) So why kill him?

JFK was no threat to the "Powers that be". So no reason to to off him by them.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Pacal

I don't find anything in this new. It has been known for quite sometime that JFK was involved in the Diem coup, although certain details were lacking. This recent revelation does do damage to two pillars of both the St. John of Kennedy mythos and the conspiracy crap.

First the fantasy story that JFK would have withdrawn from Vietnam if he had not been assassinated. Well if JFK was involved in Diem's removal, and thus indirectly in his assassination, I doubt JFK was thinking about leaving Vietnam anytime soon.

Secondly it further supports the notion that JFK was well integrated into the CIA view of the World and with covert extension of American power and thus absolutely no threat to the "Military Industrial complex", but a devote servant of it. (I am also amused by JFK groupies ignoring Operation Mongoose.) So why kill him?

JFK was no threat to the "Powers that be". So no reason to to off him by them.

That's the thing about real history and real "conspiracies" - they are discovered fairly early on, AND THE BASIC FACTS DON'T CHANGE OVER TIME.

There are two other threads here about Diem and RFK and JFK, and in each the CTist portray JFK as not realizing Diem would end up dead. What is "new" with these documents is that RFK was not onboard with the coup, which was hinted at but never confirmed, and that JFK definitely knew how things would end. Real history fleshes out the story with new details and insights over time.

Every year the JFK Assassination CT has a new villain, new shooting position, new characters tenuously linked to the plot. My favorite addition has been rifles with silencers. Meanwhile history hasn't changed. Oswald remains the lone gunman who was unconnected to a larger conspiracy. The declassified records from the National Archives reveal an investigation where a conspiracy was searched for by Dallas PD, FBI, and the CIA in desperate hopes of pinning the assassination on their designated bogeymen.

[Allen773]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Today is the anniversary of the coup and assassination of Diem in Vietnam. It's important because it drove the US involvement deeper into Vietnam's civil war, and it is relevant to the JFK assassination CT's because they are ALL founded upon the myth that JFK hated the CIA, and wanted to smash it into little pieces.

....

The report details RFK's opposition to the coup..

You know who else was opposed to the coup?

Lyndon Johnson.

Quote:

Johnson took a “very dim view” of the coup, recalls Samuel Gammon, a mid-level State Department staffer at the time. “He said, ‘This is cops and robbers stuff.’ He felt the fact that we knew about it [meant] we obviously could have discouraged it and we should have discouraged it. Diem may have been a son-of-a-bitch, but he was our son-of-a-bitch.”

“One of the greatest mistakes that this country ever made was when we encouraged the South Vietnamese to assassinate this president,” Johnson said in a private recording made when he was long out of office.

Johnson's distress over the murder of Diem was personal as well as political. The two men had met in May of 1961 when Kennedy sent Johnson to Asia.

“Right from the outset, Diem and Johnson took a liking to each other,” Miller says. “Johnson, especially in public, was not just complimentary but effusive about Ngo Dinh Diem.”

In his private recording, Johnson notes that he told Diem he needed “to rise to the occasion and provide the same quality of leadership that Churchill [had]. … It makes no difference whether it’s a fascist aggressor or a communist aggressor, you people have got to stand up here and show some steel [and] not be the Chamberlains of your time. Be the Churchills of your time.”

After Diem’s execution and JFK’s assassination, Johnson appears to have internalized the message he had communicated in his pep talk to Diem. As Churchill had stood up to aggression in Western Europe, it now fell to him, he seemed to believe, to do the same in Asia.

Ultimately, this deep, almost visceral, need to “show some steel,” to be Churchill the warrior rather than Chamberlain the appeaser, would paint the president into a terrible corner — knowing the war was a disaster in the making, but unable or unwilling to walk away.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-09-...ldnt-walk-away

With Diem and JFK dead within three weeks of each other, LBJ was left to pick up the pieces of an escalating civil war in Vietnam that was also a Cold War proxy conflict (even if the extent of that element was exaggerated, LBJ certainly believed it to be the case and that's what matters here). We all know how that turned out.

Because JFK didn't get to witness the full ramifications of Diem's assassination, and because of the massive public relations effort on his behalf by both the conspiracy theory community and his own family, along with many other people, some more well-meaning than others, the romance of JFK/"Camelot" has persisted to a great deal. Historical counterfactuals can often be pointless exercises, but you have to wonder how JFK's reputation would have help up had he lived, and as events in Vietnam continued to spiral out of control...

[Axxman300]

Game over. JFK CTists have lost Big Laminated Glass:

https://www.usglassmag.com/2020/10/g...assassination/

Quote:

In response to speculation that a small round bullet hole found on the front of the windshield means that a shot or shots were fired at President Kennedy from the front of the car, the Warren Report states, “The windshield was not penetrated by any bullet. A small residue of lead was found on the inside surface of the windshield; on the outside of the windshield was a very small pattern of cracks immediately in front of the lead residue on the inside. The bullet from which this lead residue came was probably one of those that struck the President and therefore came from overhead and to the rear. Experts established that the abrasion in the windshield came from impact on the inside of the glass.”

Barry decided to conduct simulations to determine if this finding was correct since laminated glass in particular was not discussed in the report. He got some old laminated windshields and set them up in his basement. All tests were conducted facing the inside lite of glass.

At first, he fired a low mass lead fragment at low velocity. The result was no fracture to either of the lites. During the second test he shot a high mass lead fragment at high velocity. Both lites of glass were fractured. In the third test, Barry shot a medium mass lead fragment at medium velocity. Only the outer lite was fractured.

Barry determined that there was no front-surface impact and that the Warren Commission findings are correct despite neglecting to give a detailed description of laminated glass breakage.

Dang experts ruin everything

[Axxman300]

This week on your Streaming Service:

The Truth is the Only Client:

https://www.truthistheonlyclient.com/

Description here:


https://www.berkeleyside.com/2020/11...he-only-client

Quote:

Fair warning, though: the film (an apparent labor of love for Cleveland judge Brendan Sheehan, who was just re-elected for another term last week) is an attempt to exonerate the Warren Commission, and it does a damn good job of it. Featuring interviews with surviving staff — including Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, who worked for the Commission as a fact-checker! — the film effectively debunks many of the conspiracy theories that have arisen over the past half century.

[Hans]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

I read somewhere that Nixon, by rights, should have been the biggest asassination target given that he at one point authorized a top-to-bottom audit of the CIA when they missed several important political events. He griped that they had tens of thousands of people just sitting around reading foreign newspapers. Not sure about the reality of this since I couldn’t find anything about it.

I cannot speak to the CIA doing so but my brother was the DIA ‘desk officer’ for Pakistan and he spent time reading their newspapers to have a feel of what was going on in the country and to note how the military was viewed. He also traveled there as a tourist on several occasions to have a better understanding of the place. He learned Urdu & Punjabi too.

[Halcyon Dayz]

Reportedly the bulk of the information the CIA collects is from public sources.

The thriller Three Days of the Condor (US/1975) starring Robert Redford is about such a CIA analist.

[Spektator]

Analyst, I think.

[Dave Rogers]

But an incredibly thorough one, clearly.

Dave

[Halcyon Dayz]

Originally Posted by Spektator

Analyst, I think.

Yeah.
My spell checker is set to bilingual mode so it didn't catch that.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Halcyon Dayz

Yeah.
My spell checker is set to bilingual bisexual mode so it didn't catch that.

FTFY

[MicahJava]

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

Wouldn't the autopsy have mentioned that?

You've been quoting the autopsy for years about the small wound on the back of the President's head, assuring us the autopsists got that placement correct. Now you're apparently going to switch gears and tell us the autopsists didn't mention "this small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head" because they are either corrupt or incompetent.

Right?

Do you realize how funny you are?

You're going to miss the boat there as well. There was a well-known exit wound where the bullet (or one fragment thereof) apparently did exit. But it was along the margin of the large exit wound on the right-top of the President's head.

https://www.archives.gov/files/resea...ppendix-09.pdf

See the paragraph on page four near the bottom of that page beginning "Received as separate specimens from Dallas...". That paragraph points out where on a separate fragment of skull bone the small exit wound was seen.

There's no mystery here. Welcome to reality.

Hank

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

Let me guess, it got mixed up with Rudy Giuliani's hundreds of election fraud affadavits but as soon as he's produced them in court you'll be able to find it?

Dave

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

What, you dug him up and shot him? Isn't there a law against that?

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Hans

I cannot speak to the CIA doing so but my brother was the DIA ‘desk officer’ for Pakistan and he spent time reading their newspapers to have a feel of what was going on in the country and to note how the military was viewed. He also traveled there as a tourist on several occasions to have a better understanding of the place. He learned Urdu & Punjabi too.

The funny thing is this whole week the CIA's social media has been hyping careers as a CIA librarian.

When my family member went to the dark-side he'd suggest books to read that would bring me up to speed on the situation in his AO.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

Oh man, can't hardly wait...

[bknight]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

I'm guessing here but is this more autopsy nonsense observations?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by bknight

I'm guessing here but is this more autopsy nonsense observations?

I thought that maybe someone with an electric drill had broken into the morgue (or whatever its is) where JFK's remains are stored. Silly me.

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

I thought that maybe someone with an electric drill had broken into the morgue (or whatever its is) where JFK's remains are stored. Silly me.

It's called Arlington Cemetary. Eternal Flame and all that...

https://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/Ex...nedy-Gravesite

Hank

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by HSienzant

It's called Arlington Cemetary. Eternal Flame and all that...

https://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/Ex...nedy-Gravesite

Hank

So they would have to dig his remains up in public first. That does not seem likely possible. So forget I said anything.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

57 years later and the best you can manage is a promise of something "new" coming about a "small wound somewhere"? Really?

Well currently I have two small headwounds, one of which bled profusely, sufficient to matt my hair. So what? Headwounds tend to bleed a lot. Was I therefore assassinated?

You are making absurd claims.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by abaddon

You are making absurd claims.

You're being overly generous, MJ isn't even making claims.

Dave

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

So they would have to dig his remains up in public first. That does not seem likely possible. So forget I said anything.

I'd like to forget MicahJava said anything about it.

Actually, they dug him up in public in 1967, per the link. Some speculate that's when JFK's brain was buried with him during his reinternment. It's been missing since then, and the last person known to have possession was Robert Kennedy's secretary, Angie Novello. It's a short leap of faith to RFK making arrangements to get the brain into the coffin sometime thereafter.

Hank

[Axxman300]

RFK definitely put the brain in the coffin in 1967. My guess is that Jackie begged him to do it, and nobody said no to Jackie. And I'm sure nobody at the National Archives was going to tell RFK anything.

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

RFK definitely put the brain in the coffin in 1967. My guess is that Jackie begged him to do it, and nobody said no to Jackie. And I'm sure nobody at the National Archives was going to tell RFK anything.

That's the reasonable surmise, and the most likely conclusion according to the HSCA in 1978, but of course because there's no documentary evidence trail on that, conspiracy theorists like to raise the issue of "Why is the brain missing?" and "What would the missing brain reveal about the conspiracy?" every so often. I'm sure it's been raised here more than once by more than one CT, including, I would wager, our current resident CT.

Hank

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by HSienzant

That's the reasonable surmise, and the most likely conclusion according to the HSCA in 1978, but of course because there's no documentary evidence trail on that, conspiracy theorists like to raise the issue of "Why is the brain missing?" and "What would the missing brain reveal about the conspiracy?" every so often. I'm sure it's been raised here more than once by more than one CT, including, I would wager, our current resident CT.

Hank

My guess is that RFK figured they already had photographed the brain and the rest of the body anyway, so why keep it in a jar? Plus, they were Catholic as hell so...

And as far as the comedy relief goes, we're going to sit through another hypothesis based on 5 or 6 low quality autopsy photos and copies of copies of x-rays along with second-hand non-medical opinion, and cherry-picked testimony that's almost always out of context.

[Allen773]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

The funny thing is this whole week the CIA's social media has been hyping careers as a CIA librarian.

When my family member went to the dark-side he'd suggest books to read that would bring me up to speed on the situation in his AO.

The CIA is often scooped by journalists. They're not all-powerful and yes, most of their info is open-source. A lot of it also comes from America's allies just giving the Agency stuff, and obviously, other parts of the intelligence community (NSA especially for SIGNINT). There's also the CIA's Domestic Contact Service, where Americans who travel abroad can potentially be a source of useful info.

Granted, the CIA has long cultivated relationships in the media (Allen Dulles, for example, was notorious for using CBS to puff up the image of the Agency) and partnered with the State Department, USAID, Voice of America, etc. Honestly, CIA is really a small - albeit important - part of US foreign policy.

And of course, at least historically, being a journalist and involved in intelligence aren't mutually exclusive, though the separation between these professions (among others) is far more institutionalized these days...

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

My guess is that RFK figured they already had photographed the brain and the rest of the body anyway, so why keep it in a jar? Plus, they were Catholic as hell so...

The trail goes cold with Angie Novello, so that was pretty much the HSCA conclusion as well.

Originally Posted by Axxman300

And as far as the comedy relief goes, we're going to sit through another hypothesis based on 5 or 6 low quality autopsy photos and copies of copies of x-rays along with second-hand non-medical opinion, and cherry-picked testimony that's almost always out of context.

Yep. More balogna, in other words. Sliced thick.

Hank

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Allen773

The CIA is often scooped by journalists. They're not all-powerful and yes, most of their info is open-source. A lot of it also comes from America's allies just giving the Agency stuff, and obviously, other parts of the intelligence community (NSA especially for SIGNINT). There's also the CIA's Domestic Contact Service, where Americans who travel abroad can potentially be a source of useful info.

Granted, the CIA has long cultivated relationships in the media (Allen Dulles, for example, was notorious for using CBS to puff up the image of the Agency) and partnered with the State Department, USAID, Voice of America, etc. Honestly, CIA is really a small - albeit important - part of US foreign policy.

And of course, at least historically, being a journalist and involved in intelligence aren't mutually exclusive, though the separation between these professions (among others) is far more institutionalized these days...

JFK actually expanded the CIA's outreach to key newspapers and news outlets.

The problem with the CIA is that its internal system for getting information to the right departments is slow. There are TV, radio, and print news operations in every country in the world. If you need to know what's going on in a certain country, or specific region within that country you simply subscribe to the closest newspaper.

My Twitter feed is populated by individual journalists from the BBC, Al Jazeera, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, FOX, Reuters, and others from Pakistan, Russia, and African countries. I get news about Afghan and Syrian car-bomb attacks hours before the major outlets report them.

[MicahJava]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

More coming soon on the possibility of a small wound somewhere in the front of Kennedy's head.

https://old.reddit.com/r/JFKeveryday...head_contents/

PDF version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7V...ew?usp=sharing

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by MicahJava

https://old.reddit.com/r/JFKeveryday...head_contents/

PDF version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7V...ew?usp=sharing

So the same old same-old.

Stuff like Dennis David coming forward years after the assassination and talking about seeing a non-existent autopsy film and other discredited and unproven nonsense. Upon reflection, I guess you didn't promise anything worthwhile or new in your blurb from a few days ago.

For example, Dennis David was covered back in the dark ages... January of 2013, to be precise, with Robert "Baloney" Prey. You're not bringing anything new to the table. For example, start here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...58#post8957358

This is why you've been admonished in the past to read the threads that preceded your arrival here. It's clear you still haven't done that. You treat the various subjects as if we're unfamiliar with them, and don't have sufficient information to make a judgment call against your arguments and your supposed 'facts'.

Hank

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by HSienzant

It's called Arlington Cemetary. Eternal Flame and all that...

https://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/Ex...nedy-Gravesite

Hank

That's what THEY want you to think!

[HSienzant]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

That's what THEY want you to think!

Touché, Trebuchet.

Hank

[BStrong]

Who put one small hole in the front of JFK's head?

600 Italian marksman.

[MicahJava]

Originally Posted by HSienzant

So the same old same-old.

Stuff like Dennis David coming forward years after the assassination and talking about seeing a non-existent autopsy film and other discredited and unproven nonsense. Upon reflection, I guess you didn't promise anything worthwhile or new in your blurb from a few days ago.

For example, Dennis David was covered back in the dark ages... January of 2013, to be precise, with Robert "Baloney" Prey. You're not bringing anything new to the table. For example, start here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...58#post8957358

This is why you've been admonished in the past to read the threads that preceded your arrival here. It's clear you still haven't done that. You treat the various subjects as if we're unfamiliar with them, and don't have sufficient information to make a judgment call against your arguments and your supposed 'facts'.

Hank

This new post also offers rebuttals.


BTW you should know that Bruce Pitzer's former wife Joyce also said that he was vaguely aware of a "something" her husband had concerning the assassination.

Dennis David said he didn't come forward earlier because of his career and his (perhaps untrue) suspicion that Bruce Pitzer was murdered.