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Tags assassinations , JFK assassination , John F. Kennedy , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 16th December 2021, 03:31 PM   #241
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Thanks for putting this up - will take time to read all that - I was always interested in what O was doing in Mexico and his interactions with the S and C embassies
The CIA really put in a solid effort. The new reports include interviews with a walk-in from Nicaragua, named Alvarado, who made incredible claims that Oswald had been paid by Cuba to assassinate JFK, and had traveled to Cuba. The CIA Mexico City Station went to great lengths to verify each of his claims, and quickly figured out Alvarado was lying.

Juxtapose that against how the 2002-CIA ran with the claims of a pair of Iraqi exiles about Saddam's WMD stockpile without ever bothering to verify in any way.

Had the Mexico City Station got that way with Alvarado's claims in 1964, there might not have been a 1965.

This collection of documents is remarkable as they fill in a lot of gaps. There are a lot of non-assassination memos included as well pertaining to MLK, and James Earl Ray, more on JMWAVE operations, and FBI counter-mafia operations in Canada, of all places.
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Old 5th January 2022, 12:21 PM   #242
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Just throwing this out there.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6wK...625c64626&nd=1
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Old 5th January 2022, 03:20 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
You can smell the chronic through your device speakers.
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Old 29th January 2022, 12:14 PM   #244
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Hey Question

I came across this on another forum

"Oswald had two torn in half one dollar bills in his wallet"

Instead of thrashing about on the internet I thought I'd just check with the experts here.

Is that true and what evil importance do the CTs give it?
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Old 29th January 2022, 12:53 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Hey Question

I came across this on another forum

"Oswald had two torn in half one dollar bills in his wallet"

Instead of thrashing about on the internet I thought I'd just check with the experts here.

Is that true and what evil importance do the CTs give it?
It is an old style ID verification method. Tear a dollar in half. You keep one half, I keep the other half. If I give my half to Joe Bloggs the super spy, then he can verify you are indeed you by checking if the two half bills match.

Basic spycraft.

Now, did LHO have two torn in half dollar bills in his wallet? Well that would be useless for the intended purpose, wouldn't it. He hardly wants to identify himself to himself twice, does he? And Joe Bloggs the super spy would hardly give LHO back his half since when he is replaced by Jane Doe, Jane will need Joe's half in order to verify LHO.

Maybe LHO prepared two in advance, one for the CIA and one for the KGB? No, that doesn't work either. "oops, sorry, wrong half dollar bill. Gimme a second" sort of gives the double agent away. And it is normal the the tearing in half is done in the presence of the initial contact so there can be no risk of shenanigans.

What you actually have here is somebody who has read too many lame spy novels.
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Old 29th January 2022, 02:31 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is an old style ID verification method. Tear a dollar in half. You keep one half, I keep the other half. If I give my half to Joe Bloggs the super spy, then he can verify you are indeed you by checking if the two half bills match.

Basic spycraft.

Now, did LHO have two torn in half dollar bills in his wallet? Well that would be useless for the intended purpose, wouldn't it. He hardly wants to identify himself to himself twice, does he? And Joe Bloggs the super spy would hardly give LHO back his half since when he is replaced by Jane Doe, Jane will need Joe's half in order to verify LHO.

Maybe LHO prepared two in advance, one for the CIA and one for the KGB? No, that doesn't work either. "oops, sorry, wrong half dollar bill. Gimme a second" sort of gives the double agent away. And it is normal the the tearing in half is done in the presence of the initial contact so there can be no risk of shenanigans.

What you actually have here is somebody who has read too many lame spy novels.

Wot abaddon said.

Having one intact dollar bill in his wallet would be more suspicious than having two already torn dollar bills.
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Old 29th January 2022, 02:34 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is an old style ID verification method. Tear a dollar in half. You keep one half, I keep the other half. If I give my half to Joe Bloggs the super spy, then he can verify you are indeed you by checking if the two half bills match.

Basic spycraft.

Now, did LHO have two torn in half dollar bills in his wallet? Well that would be useless for the intended purpose, wouldn't it. He hardly wants to identify himself to himself twice, does he? And Joe Bloggs the super spy would hardly give LHO back his half since when he is replaced by Jane Doe, Jane will need Joe's half in order to verify LHO.

Maybe LHO prepared two in advance, one for the CIA and one for the KGB? No, that doesn't work either. "oops, sorry, wrong half dollar bill. Gimme a second" sort of gives the double agent away. And it is normal the the tearing in half is done in the presence of the initial contact so there can be no risk of shenanigans.

What you actually have here is somebody who has read too many lame spy novels.
But, did he actually have two torn-in-half bill halves in his wallet? I can't think of a logical reason for that, outside of something unusual.

I'm just asking if this is a rumor, or verified fact.
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Old 29th January 2022, 02:59 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
But, did he actually have two torn-in-half bill halves in his wallet? I can't think of a logical reason for that, outside of something unusual.

I'm just asking if this is a rumor, or verified fact.
It's just more JFK CT nonsense. I have a torn in half 5 euro note in my wallet. For years. I could bring it to a bank and get it swapped out for a crispy new one. But I don't because travel and parking and queuing up in the bank would mean I make a loss on the deal. I always say "Next time I am in the bank I will sort it" and I always forget.

So no, there would be nothing remarkable about it even if were vaguely true. It doesn't matter. It doesn't even mean anything. It simply cannot function as a spy trick.

If true, it simply indicates that LHO was careless with currency. Some people are. I have seen it IRL.

It is more rare these days, but I got some mileage so I recall the days when I carried cash. Those days are long gone. Had LHO lived in the modern era, he would have been nailed in seconds. So I operate cashless. Does that mean I can be tracked? Yes. Does that bother me? No. Because unlike LHO, I am not doing anything illegal.
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Old 29th January 2022, 04:55 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
But, did he actually have two torn-in-half bill halves in his wallet? I can't think of a logical reason for that, outside of something unusual.

I'm just asking if this is a rumor, or verified fact.
Yeah, that is what I was interested in. Is there a report on what O had on him when he was arrested and that fact was noted then.

..or did a CTer make it up decades later.
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Old 29th January 2022, 05:59 PM   #250
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Oh boy, Oswald's wallet...

Seems he had two. One was left with Tippit after he shot him, and the second was pulled out of his pants in the back seat of the patrol car after his arrest at the Texas Theater.

I can't find an inventory of the items, not sure if they were written down.

Even better, JFK-CTist claim there were four in total, with one supposedly found at the Paine residence, and the one in the National Archives alleged to be an FBI plant.

I've heard the dollar-bill fragment story, and we've discussed it here a few times. Hank would be the best source on this subject. Far as I know this was never confirmed as DPD never inventoried the contents, nor did the FBI. If it's listed in the WC it's in an unsearchable section.

The main point is that CTists want it both ways, they claim the torn note is proof of spy-craft, but at the same time they claim the wallet(s) were planted by them.
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Old 29th January 2022, 10:26 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Oh boy, Oswald's wallet...

Seems he had two. One was left with Tippit after he shot him, and the second was pulled out of his pants in the back seat of the patrol car after his arrest at the Texas Theater.

I can't find an inventory of the items, not sure if they were written down.

Even better, JFK-CTist claim there were four in total, with one supposedly found at the Paine residence, and the one in the National Archives alleged to be an FBI plant.

I've heard the dollar-bill fragment story, and we've discussed it here a few times. Hank would be the best source on this subject. Far as I know this was never confirmed as DPD never inventoried the contents, nor did the FBI. If it's listed in the WC it's in an unsearchable section.

The main point is that CTists want it both ways, they claim the torn note is proof of spy-craft, but at the same time they claim the wallet(s) were planted by them.
.....a CT beauty then - whatever was there is up for CT imagination free of restraints fall thinking then.

I say there was a Soviet 130mm artillery shell in his wallet = prove me wrong! lol
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Old 30th January 2022, 03:45 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yeah, that is what I was interested in. Is there a report on what O had on him when he was arrested and that fact was noted then.

..or did a CTer make it up decades later.

I think the part that interests me, though, is that there is a certain tendency to dismiss such things as unimportant. To say, "even if it X were true, it means nothing". When any reasonable person might say, "that is a rather odd occurrence".

It's a sort of confirmation bias, much like a CT might have. In this case, it sounds like it is nothing of concern, unverified. But, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss things. For example, this statement:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Having one intact dollar bill in his wallet would be more suspicious than having two already torn dollar bills.

I don’t understand where that thought comes from. If a person has a whole, intact, one dollar bill in their wallet that would raise little interest. But to have two unique halves…that seems a lot more odd. Especially when you look at the overall context.

Last edited by Warp12; 30th January 2022 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:05 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I think the part that interests me, though, is that there is a certain tendency to dismiss such things as unimportant. To say, "even if it X were true, it means nothing". When any reasonable person might say, "that is a rather odd occurrence".
Gosh, you must lead a very dull life. Unexpected things happen to me every day and I relish it.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It's a sort of confirmation bias, much like a CT might have.
You mean like you?

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
In this case, it sounds like it is nothing of concern, unverified. But, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss things. For example, this statement:

I don’t understand where that thought comes from. If a person has a whole, intact, one dollar bill in their wallet that would raise little interest. But to have two unique halves…that seems a lot more odd. Especially when you look at the overall context.
That has been explained to you in detail. That you refuse to read or understand is your problem not anyone else's. I cannot help you with that.
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Old 30th January 2022, 12:14 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I think the part that interests me, though, is that there is a certain tendency to dismiss such things as unimportant. To say, "even if it X were true, it means nothing". When any reasonable person might say, "that is a rather odd occurrence".
Why?

A reasonable person would read up on Oswald and learn that while he was a complex individual, he was wannabe. Everything about Oswald was odd from day one. He was the product of a crazy mother.


Quote:
I don’t understand where that thought comes from. If a person has a whole, intact, one dollar bill in their wallet that would raise little interest. But to have two unique halves…that seems a lot more odd. Especially when you look at the overall context.
Cool, let's look at the "context".

1. We can't confirm these dollar halves were even in his wallet.
2. In this case the CTists have a point, due to DPD's handling of BOTH wallets they could be ruled inadmissible in a court of law. If I was his lawyer I'd push that angle.
3. In 1963, $1 was serious cash, and a torn bill can be taken to any bank to be replaced with a whole bill. In 1963, banks closed at 5PM, and were not open on weekends, thus who knows how long those bill-halves had been in his wallet while he waited for an opportunity to exchange them? In the context of 1963, combined with Oswald's finances, this is the more likely scenario.
4. Speculation is not proof.

Doesn't matter what was in his wallet. All that matters is his rifle, with his prints, was found on the 6th floor - his work station - of the Texas School Book Depository, and the bullets recovered from the limo, and JFK's head, match the rifle. The gun used to kill Officer JD Tippit was the same gun taken FROM OSWALD'S HAND by another DPD officer whom he was attempting to shoot during apprehension.

In 59 years nobody has been able to link Oswald, the lone shooter, to any larger group of actors on any level. Maybe someday someone will do this, and it will have nothing to do with the alleged dollar fragments.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:03 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Doesn't matter what was in his wallet. All that matters is his rifle, with his prints, was found on the 6th floor - his work station - of the Texas School Book Depository, and the bullets recovered from the limo, and JFK's head, match the rifle. The gun used to kill Officer JD Tippit was the same gun taken FROM OSWALD'S HAND by another DPD officer whom he was attempting to shoot during apprehension.

In 59 years nobody has been able to link Oswald, the lone shooter, to any larger group of actors on any level. Maybe someday someone will do this, and it will have nothing to do with the alleged dollar fragments.
Again, why are people here so quick to create a CT narrative around any innocuous statement? I didn't say the contents of his wallet, whatever they might be, would change the fact that he was the lone shooter.

However, if we are really seeking the truth (as opposed to trying to discredit statements we don't agree with), we might not dismiss extra data points.
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Old 31st January 2022, 07:40 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don’t understand where that thought comes from. If a person has a whole, intact, one dollar bill in their wallet that would raise little interest. But to have two unique halves…that seems a lot more odd. Especially when you look at the overall context.
Fine. In what overall context would the presence- if true- of a torn dollar bill in Oswald's wallet be noteworthy?
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Old 31st January 2022, 11:03 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post

1. We can't confirm these dollar halves were even in his wallet.
Yep and we can speculate with reason and experience that a CT author made it up.
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Old 31st January 2022, 01:03 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Again, why are people here so quick to create a CT narrative around any innocuous statement? I didn't say the contents of his wallet, whatever they might be, would change the fact that he was the lone shooter.

However, if we are really seeking the truth (as opposed to trying to discredit statements we don't agree with), we might not dismiss extra data points.
But you aren't looking for the truth. You're looking for a reason to doubt the truth so an alternate point of view can be forced into the narrative.

I told you the facts, why waste time fact-checking a ghost story?
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Old 31st January 2022, 04:50 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Again, why are people here so quick to create a CT narrative around any innocuous statement? I didn't say the contents of his wallet, whatever they might be, would change the fact that he was the lone shooter.

However, if we are really seeking the truth (as opposed to trying to discredit statements we don't agree with), we might not dismiss extra data points.
Just how do two torn half of one dollar bills in Oswald's wallet mean anything? This is assuming that is true to begin with.

Assuming it is true what is more likely Oswald accidently tore in half two bills and was keeping them in his wallet to exchange for whole bills or simply forgot about it, after all wallets are often just stuffed with crap, or this was part of some conspiracy related stuff or the assassination somehow.

Frankly I doubt it is true and if it is so what? Without a context it is just a trivial data point that makes no real sense because we lack the data for it to make real sense. Like many unexplained things we lack the data and we have no data that shows it is of any importance whatsoever.
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Old 1st February 2022, 02:29 AM   #260
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I think also that expecting someone like Oswald, who was clearly deranged, to be in all other respects completely rational is a mistake.
If an odd person does odd things, I do not see that as shocking.
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Old 1st February 2022, 02:35 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I think also that expecting someone like Oswald, who was clearly deranged, to be in all other respects completely rational is a mistake.
If an odd person does odd things, I do not see that as shocking.
So, are you saying that two torn bill halves in the wallet would suggest irrational behavior? An unusual occurrence? Please, elaborate.
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Old 1st February 2022, 02:51 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, are you saying that two torn bill halves in the wallet would suggest irrational behavior? An unusual occurrence? Please, elaborate.
Nope. The claim itself is irrational. Do you need an example of an irrational claim?
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Old 1st February 2022, 02:52 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope. The claim itself is irrational. Do you need an example of an irrational claim?
Your response does not address the statement of Cosmic Yak, which is focused upon the actions of Oswald.
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Old 1st February 2022, 03:10 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Your response does not address the statement of Cosmic Yak, which is focused upon the actions of Oswald.
There were no two torn dollar bills in anyone's wallet. That would be pointless. This has been explained to you.
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Old 1st February 2022, 03:13 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
There were no two torn dollar bills in anyone's wallet. That would be pointless. This has been explained to you.
I didn't claim there were. The whole debate is based on a proposed scenario, and what the implications might be.
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Old 1st February 2022, 03:21 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I think also that expecting someone like Oswald, who was clearly deranged, to be in all other respects completely rational is a mistake.
If an odd person does odd things, I do not see that as shocking.
Are we having a discussion? Not as far as I know. But warp thinks we are. On planet sausage maybe.

No offense, I would happily discuss any topic with you at drop of hat and it would likely be most entertaining.

But I resent the accusation in this thread that somehow you and I are colluding in some way. Warp posts utter nonsense. That's the end of it.
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Old 1st February 2022, 03:25 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The whole debate is based on a proposed scenario, and what the implications might be.
Nope.
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Old 1st February 2022, 03:26 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I didn't claim there were. The whole debate is based on a proposed scenario, and what the implications might be.
No idea what "debate" you a waffling about. There is no debate. LHO put two bullets in JFK. JFK died.

What is there to debate?
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Old 1st February 2022, 03:41 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But I resent the accusation in this thread that somehow you and I are colluding in some way. Warp posts utter nonsense. That's the end of it.
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Old 1st February 2022, 12:30 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I think also that expecting someone like Oswald, who was clearly deranged, to be in all other respects completely rational is a mistake.
If an odd person does odd things, I do not see that as shocking.
He wasn't deranged, and that's the problem.

He was a smart guy who had a big ego, but refused to back up his intellect with a college education, and instead lived a life centered around rash, and impulsive behavior (joining the US Marines, defecting to the Soviet Union, trying to immigrate to Cuba, and killing JFK). He wanted notoriety, and in death he achieved that.
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Old 1st February 2022, 12:36 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, are you saying that two torn bill halves in the wallet would suggest irrational behavior? An unusual occurrence? Please, elaborate.
Why would it be unusual?

I only clean out my wallet maybe once every few years, mostly when I buy a new one. I find slips of paper containing names and phone numbers of people I forgot, and at one point I had four VIP cards for strip clubs that had gone out of business in the 90s.

The difference is I can verify these were in my wallet. Nobody can verify the dollar-bill halves in Oswald's wallet, nor in which of the two wallets they were allegedly found inside.
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Old 1st February 2022, 12:43 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Why would it be unusual?

I only clean out my wallet maybe once every few years, mostly when I buy a new one. I find slips of paper containing names and phone numbers of people I forgot, and at one point I had four VIP cards for strip clubs that had gone out of business in the 90s.

The difference is I can verify these were in my wallet. Nobody can verify the dollar-bill halves in Oswald's wallet, nor in which of the two wallets they were allegedly found inside.

I was asking Cosmic Yak, who referenced expectations of Oswald's behavior.

Quote:
I think also that expecting someone like Oswald, who was clearly deranged, to be in all other respects completely rational is a mistake.
If an odd person does odd things, I do not see that as shocking.
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Old 1st February 2022, 12:44 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I didn't claim there were. The whole debate is based on a proposed scenario, and what the implications might be.
You haven't specified a proposed scenario.

The dollar bill thing was addressed a few times in the older threads. There is nothing to it. And we explained that, so what scenario are you proposing? Without substance there are no implications.

A cover-up?

A cover-up of what? A conspiracy? The assassination files at the National Archives show that the CIA, FBI, and Dallas Police worked hard to link Oswald to a larger conspiracy, but failed. Why would they work so hard to establish a conspiracy and then cover it up? The FBI continued to investigate into the mid-1979s, how does that serve the purpose of a cover-up?
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Old 1st February 2022, 12:45 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I was asking Cosmic Yak, who referenced expectations of Oswald's behavior.
Cool, explain his behavior.
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Old 1st February 2022, 12:56 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You haven't specified a proposed scenario.

The dollar bill thing was addressed a few times in the older threads. There is nothing to it. And we explained that, so what scenario are you proposing? Without substance there are no implications.

A cover-up?

A cover-up of what? A conspiracy? The assassination files at the National Archives show that the CIA, FBI, and Dallas Police worked hard to link Oswald to a larger conspiracy, but failed. Why would they work so hard to establish a conspiracy and then cover it up? The FBI continued to investigate into the mid-1979s, how does that serve the purpose of a cover-up?
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Cool, explain his behavior.

Weird. My whole debate really comes back to this statement:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Having one intact dollar bill in his wallet would be more suspicious than having two already torn dollar bills.

This just seems an entirely nonsensical position. It is a tendency to handwave away data that doesn't fit a personal narrative.

Even looking at your above comments, you seem to be focusing on this idea of a conspiracy/cover-up. I haven't suggested anything of the sort.
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Old 1st February 2022, 01:12 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Why would it be unusual?

I only clean out my wallet maybe once every few years, mostly when I buy a new one. I find slips of paper containing names and phone numbers of people I forgot, and at one point I had four VIP cards for strip clubs that had gone out of business in the 90s.

The difference is I can verify these were in my wallet. Nobody can verify the dollar-bill halves in Oswald's wallet, nor in which of the two wallets they were allegedly found inside.
I do about the same thing last time I cleaned it out I found a sharply folded 500 Dirham bill crammed into one of the 'sleeves'. I had last been in the a decade ago. An emergency reserve I guess!
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Old 1st February 2022, 03:20 PM   #277
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I carried a partially torn Scots one-pound banknote in my wallet for twelve or more years after a brief trip to Edinburgh in 1999. It wasn't a souvenir, just leftover tip money. I never worked for the Scottish CID.
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Old 1st February 2022, 08:47 PM   #278
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Oh hell no you haven't

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
.... My whole debate really comes back to... this idea of a conspiracy/cover-up. I haven't suggested anything of the sort.
Look warp m' man. After all this time and all this blather, why should anyone, especially the likes of you, give a flying **** who shot JFK? I doubt you know much about the man, or the blank brevity of Camelot, or the times in which he and I lived, or the futility of assasinating a president. Don't you have better things to do with your brief existence than to wallow through this tiresome old conspiracy morass? Please tell me that you do, and that the 12 you append to your handle is not, really not, your mental age.
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Old 1st February 2022, 11:57 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I didn't claim there were. The whole debate is based on a proposed scenario, and what the implications might be.
When we go on hypotheticals, how about we consider a more serious one.

What if JFK was actually shot by a duck?

What would that imply? That's certainly worth some serious consideration. If ducks aren't harmless unintelligent birds but have capability to perform targeted assassinations. What if some other high-profile assassinations were done by ducks too? Martin Luther King? Trotsky? What are the ducks trying to do?

I'm not claiming that a duck shot JFK, but we really should consider why and how they did it if they actually did it. And how can we prevent them from taking over the world. Just hypothetically, that is.
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Old 2nd February 2022, 02:30 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, are you saying that two torn bill halves in the wallet would suggest irrational behavior? An unusual occurrence? Please, elaborate.
No, I'm not. What I'm suggesting is that ascribing rational reasons for an action to someone who was clearly not rational is a mistake, and also pointless.
In response to Axxman300's comment, I would argue that wanting to murder someone is, by definition, a sign of insanity.
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