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Tags assassinations , JFK assassination , John F. Kennedy , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 2nd April 2022, 09:36 PM   #321
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Trivia question who are the top 3 JFK conspiracy theorist these day - or are they all dead?
I can't tell you if they are deceased.. but I can tell you they are dead from the neck up!
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Old 2nd April 2022, 10:31 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Hank has been grumbling and meandering for two decades, which is nothing to say of the other lone nutters that have existed.
Nope. Hank, like me, was once a JFK CT nutjob. And one day he bothered look into the facts on both sides, and found the conspiracy crew to be lacking anything solid other than the dead bodies of JFK, Tippit, and Oswald. Then he read the entire Warren Commission report, and learned that almost every claim about the finding being wrong was a lie. And most of those who claimed conspiracy had anterior motives: money, notoriety, and a fierce anti-American background.

After all, some people couldn't live with the idea that a self-styled Marxist revolutionary had murdered JFK. As the 60s progressed, and the Vietnam War unfolded, and young Americans began smoking pot, public perceptions became easily warped. Actual conspiracies by Nixon only fueled the cottage industry of JFK-CTs into an industry. Each new CT built on the previous, while contradicting the claims in order to seat itself as the "true facts".

The realization Hank, and folks like me had once we realized we'd been taken by a bunch scam artists left us with three options: We could shut up and move on with life. We could bury our heads back between our legs until we found a newer, shinier JFK-CT to embrace. Or we could get even with liars and fools like you by calling your bluffs, and dragging your sad theories out into the light where they disintegrate like a rotten sponge.

Doesn't matter if you ever see the light. We don't care. All that matters is how easily your claims get destroyed each time you trot them out after yet another fringe reset.

These are the fact that you and all the others have failed to dispute in any way:

1 - Two of three shots fired from the 6th Floor of the TSBD struck the limo, killing JFK, and wounding Governor Connally.

2 - Those shots were fired by Lee Harvey Oswald, who owned the Italian-made Carcano, 6.5x.52mm. Those rounds were recovered from the car, JFK-s skull, and Connally's stretcher.

3 - Oswald was the only TSBD employee to leave the building after the shooting.

4. Oswald shot DPD officer JD Tippit , and attempted to shoot a second policeman with his .38. This is the same .38 revolver Oswald has in the backyard photo with him holding the Carcano he'd use to shoot the President.

Nobody has been able get around these facts since 1963. Every CT has tried so very hard to add a second gunman in Dealey Plaza, and all have failed. It's nothing more than a ghost and bigfoot story.
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Old 2nd April 2022, 10:35 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Trivia question who are the top 3 JFK conspiracy theorist these day - or are they all dead?
Josiah Thompson
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Old 3rd April 2022, 08:06 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You: Two decades of grumbling that went nowhere.

Me: 6 years of fact-checking and information-sorting.

Guess what? The JFK conspiracy crowd has the forensic evidence nailed down.
Stomping on the floor and saying I'm right! doesn't count for much. You have been handed your ass so much in this thread it's ridiculous.

If the JFK conspiracy crowd have nailed the forensic evidence, just why do they so often distort it? Like the "magic bullet" nonsense for example or their fantasy that the head moving back "proves" where the shot came from. (In 2013 Errol Morris made a short documentary about the implications of this "fact". One more reason to distrust Morris.)
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Old 3rd April 2022, 11:40 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I can't tell you if they are deceased.. but I can tell you they are dead from the neck up!
Hey, that was a gimme, dumb however is not quite death.
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Old 3rd April 2022, 11:44 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Josiah Thompson
Yes, that guy

https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/mov...to-jfk-in-1963
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Old 3rd April 2022, 06:02 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Stomping on the floor and saying I'm right! doesn't count for much. You have been handed your ass so much in this thread it's ridiculous.

If the JFK conspiracy crowd have nailed the forensic evidence, just why do they so often distort it? Like the "magic bullet" nonsense for example or their fantasy that the head moving back "proves" where the shot came from. (In 2013 Errol Morris made a short documentary about the implications of this "fact". One more reason to distrust Morris.)
I'll say this again...

I am open to the idea that Oswald might be linked to Cubans, pro or anti-Castro (makes no difference). There are a few gaps in his time-line which raise questions. BUT, as of now, there is NO EVIDENCE to link him to anyone, and the known evidence proves Oswald was the lone shooter of JFK.

The problem with the CTists from Day One has been the emphasis on speculation over evidence. Worse, each theory begins with JFK was murdered by: *evil doer/political entity/cabal/Jews/big corporation* in order to facilitate: *Vietnam, make LBJ President, prevent the destruction of the CIA, or whatever *. From this position the CT is shaped by cherry-picking actual evidence, and fabricating the rest. These people all NEED JFK's murder to be part of a larger plot to justify they world view.

Nothing wrong with questioning the Warren Commission, and the HSCA findings; people should always be a little skeptical about these things. But it is important to base questions on facts.

Here's a great website which underscores this point:

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/ex...ges/about.aspx

Here you find hundreds of criminal cases overturned, and the accused exonerated with new evidence. People, honest people, have tried to do this with Oswald over the years, and have failed. But by reading through the serious cases on this website it is clear that one had new physical evidence, usually DNA, and in cases of police/prosecutorial misconduct, there is certified documentation of these acts.

Not one case has been overturned by speculation and or wild claims.

Another example: The USS Ward

On December 7, 1941, the USS Ward reported that it had fire on, and sunk a mini-sub off the coast of Oahu, Hawaii. The report, and the incident was officially disputed by the US Navy as a misidentification, and that no mini-sub had been sunk. Not until 2002, when researchers located the wreck - WITH THE IMPACT FROM THE SHELL FIRED BY THE WARD IN THE EXACT LOCATION REPORTED.

Again, a case resolved with physical evidence. While it adds to the story of Pearl Harbor, and underlines the US Navy's lax attitude toward base security, it doesn't change the big picture. It just changes the body count by two.

Over the years some new evidence will pop up from the JFK Assassination, but it never changes anything. My favorite on is when the HSCA fingerprint expert actually found MORE of Oswald's prints on the Carcano that the FBI had missed. Oops.

And finally, with most of the classified documents released from the National Archives it is clear that there was a full-court press to link Oswald to a conspiracy from the night of 11/22/1963. All one has to do is compare the documents with those concerning known CIA/Government conspiracies and cover-ups to see how the FBI and CIA behaved in a way that is consistent with being caught off guard, and then working within a framework forced upon them by RFK to keep Mongoose, and JMWAVE secret. But the FBI never stopped investigating the assassination.
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Old 5th April 2022, 04:35 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
May as well casually mention that we may or may not be on the cusp of having physical proof of a conspiracy. From over a year ago now, here is the Youtube video of the updated version of Angelos Leiloglou's 3d model of Dealey Plaza - just watch 90 seconds in to 16:03: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niyDUSF02Zc&t=963s

Of course, it will take further verification that this is the one and only true interpretation of the photographic/geometrical evidence in Dealey Plaza. And even if the Single Bullet Theory were proven false, we may even see years of copium for the possibility of the official story being true without the single bullet theory being true.
Actually this pretty much confirms the plausibility that a single bullet hit Kennedy and the Governor.

Unless they are claiming to have better than a two inch margin of error then this is close enough that, should Kennedy have been just a little further leaning into that corner and the Governor just a little leaned the other way and a little more leaned back then it lines up perfectly. Is a couple of inches here and there really going to be detectable on the grain size of 8 mm film?
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Old 5th April 2022, 11:55 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Actually this pretty much confirms the plausibility that a single bullet hit Kennedy and the Governor.

Unless they are claiming to have better than a two inch margin of error then this is close enough that, should Kennedy have been just a little further leaning into that corner and the Governor just a little leaned the other way and a little more leaned back then it lines up perfectly. Is a couple of inches here and there really going to be detectable on the grain size of 8 mm film?
His computer model is wrong. He has the governor sitting too far to the right of where the film shows him sitting AND where the jump seat is actually located.

The trajectory from the 6th floor through JFK, and into Connally is accurate, and has been recreated with real bullets. Attempts to recreate a shot from the Grassy Knoll consistently result in the complete destruction of head, not to mention killing Jackie.

Wishful thinking falls way short of the ballistic science.
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Old 5th April 2022, 12:49 PM   #330
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It strikes me how much both Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK assassination itself, function as Rorschach tests.

Innocent patsy? CIA agent provocateur? Soviet or Cuban agent? Mafia hitman? Choose your own adventure. There’s enough strangeness and weird borderline behavior about Oswald and his background that you can spin pretty much any conspiracy theory about the assassination.

Ruby killing Oswald before he went to trial certainly didn’t help matters, nor did the tumult and scandals later in the 60s and 70s that undermined Americans’ trust in government, or the other assassinations like those of MLK and JFK’s own brother. And then there was the Camelot propaganda fed to the media and public by Jackie and the extended Kennedy family and network, alongside the scores of assassination conspiracy theory books, Oliver Stone’s film, etc.

In light of all this, people understandably started to believe that perhaps JFK was indeed the victim of a conspiracy, and that people in the CIA/FBI/military were involved. And down the rabbit hole they went. Very unfortunate, and we’re all living with the absolutely corrosive consequences almost six decades on from November 22, 1963.

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Old 5th April 2022, 03:37 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
His computer model is wrong. He has the governor sitting too far to the right of where the film shows him sitting AND where the jump seat is actually located.

The trajectory from the 6th floor through JFK, and into Connally is accurate, and has been recreated with real bullets. Attempts to recreate a shot from the Grassy Knoll consistently result in the complete destruction of head, not to mention killing Jackie.

Wishful thinking falls way short of the ballistic science.
That is more or less what I am.sayo.g too. Their animation is presumably a best effort to disprove that a single bullet caused all the initial injuries but it actually supports it because it comes within a couple of inches of the actual injuries to Conally which are just a matter of him being a couple of inches further right than he was.
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Old 5th April 2022, 04:51 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That is more or less what I am.sayo.g too. Their animation is presumably a best effort to disprove that a single bullet caused all the initial injuries but it actually supports it because it comes within a couple of inches of the actual injuries to Conally which are just a matter of him being a couple of inches further right than he was.
I love that they line up the shot, and go to all of that work hoping nobody notices they make the same mistake Mark Lane did in 1964, and Garrison did in the early 70s by putting Connally too far to the right, even though it is clear in all of the still pictures from the parade route.

The other hilarious point is MJ has bought into the theory that JFK's throat wound came from the front, and yet his current go-to crap video evidence proves the shot came from behind.
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Old 5th April 2022, 06:24 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I love that they line up the shot, and go to all of that work hoping nobody notices they make the same mistake Mark Lane did in 1964, and Garrison did in the early 70s by putting Connally too far to the right, even though it is clear in all of the still pictures from the parade route.

The other hilarious point is MJ has bought into the theory that JFK's throat wound came from the front, and yet his current go-to crap video evidence proves the shot came from behind.
I must say that, at the very least from the 2021 video posted, the shoulders of Connally's jacket do look too fluffy around the soldiers.
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Old 5th April 2022, 07:25 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That is more or less what I am.sayo.g too. Their animation is presumably a best effort to disprove that a single bullet caused all the initial injuries but it actually supports it because it comes within a couple of inches of the actual injuries to Conally which are just a matter of him being a couple of inches further right than he was.
I shouldn't have to post this again... but I'm going to... its an excellent debunk of the magic bullet

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Old 5th April 2022, 09:37 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I shouldn't have to post this again... but I'm going to... its an excellent debunk of the magic bullet

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ad8w0ljg0ozb30w/SBT.gif?raw=1
You are a modern day JFK Sisyphus and you are cursed to keep repeating the same information on the assassination - forever.
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Old 5th April 2022, 09:57 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
You are a modern day JFK Sisyphus and you are cursed to keep repeating the same information on the assassination - forever.
Yep. Damned boulder just won't stay where its put!!!
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Old 6th April 2022, 05:53 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I must say that, at the very least from the 2021 video posted, the shoulders of Connally's jacket do look too fluffy around the soldiers.
From this remark it sounds as though you don't understand the significance of Conally's position with respect to the question of whether the wounds line up.
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Old 6th April 2022, 05:59 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I shouldn't have to post this again... but I'm going to... its an excellent debunk of the magic bullet

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ad8w0ljg0ozb30w/SBT.gif?raw=1
I come into the conversation late, until fairly recently I only really knew the terms "grassy knoll" and "book depository" and the Seinfeld parody of the Oliver Stone film.

It is a good illustration and, again, more or less what I said.

And, not that it makes any difference, I believe Conally was turning to the left.
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Old 8th April 2022, 06:51 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You: Two decades of grumbling that went nowhere.

Me: 6 years of fact-checking and information-sorting.

Guess what? The JFK conspiracy crowd has the forensic evidence nailed down.
You're funny. Welcome back for another go-round.

Explain how Oswald's rifle wound up at the Depository if Oswald didn't bring it in.

Explain how Oswald's rifle was used to kill Kennedy if Oswald didn't use it.

You have the forensic evidence nailed down?

Start there. Cite the evidence, not the hasty assumptions and the minority of witnesses that offer discrepancies not supported by the hard evidence.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 8th April 2022, 06:54 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
De Mohrenschidt's alleged physician, Dr. Charles Mendoza, is a very interesting obscure figure in the case. Died just a few years ago after practicing medicine for years in Texas. Who knows.
Who knows? That's the best you can do?

If you don't care to make a case beyond innuendo, we don't care to rebut it.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 8th April 2022, 06:55 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
hard evidence.

Now, now none of this logical, reasonable and fact based discussion. I want mad, mad speculation and damn the evidence!
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Old 8th April 2022, 07:23 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
May as well casually mention that we may or may not be on the cusp of having physical proof of a conspiracy. From over a year ago now, here is the Youtube video of the updated version of Angelos Leiloglou's 3d model of Dealey Plaza - just watch 90 seconds in to 16:03: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niyDUSF02Zc&t=963s

Of course, it will take further verification that this is the one and only true interpretation of the photographic/geometrical evidence in Dealey Plaza. And even if the Single Bullet Theory were proven false, we may even see years of copium for the possibility of the official story being true without the single bullet theory being true.
The single bullet theory is true. Only fragments of one bullet were found in the limo and only one nearly whole bullet was found in Parkland. Most witnesses heard only three shots, and only one shooter was seen that day by witnesses, in the Depository. And only one weapon and three shells were recovered.

Given that evidence, tell me how the single bullet theory could not be true without inventing additional shooters there is no evidence for.

And you apparently think a simulation showing a difference of about six inches is significant. Wow. Not impressive.

What is the margin of error in the recreation, per chance? Do you think it's zero percent? It's not. If Connally is turned to his right even slightly in the recreation, that brings the wound into alignment, won't it?

Moreover, that recreation is not persuasive.

Slow down that video to 25% and look at frames 17:10 - 17:11. Or frames 16:23 - 16:24.

He's cheating. The limo doesn't move significantly in those frames but the origin of the blue line (the position of the supposed shooter) continues to swing to the right as we view the motorcade from behind (it has the net effect of moving the shooter more toward the western end of the Depository).

That affects where the bullet hits Connally. Move the shooter back to the sniper's nest and the bullet entry on Connally's back pivots to the right as the shooter moves to the left.

The adage I learned five decades ago (GIGO) is still true.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 8th April 2022, 07:39 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Hank has been grumbling and meandering for two decades, which is nothing to say of the other lone nutters that have existed.
Hilarious.

I've been posting the facts since about 1992, when a co-worker turned me onto Prodigy, and the ongoing discussion board there. I've "meandered" from board to board, but mostly because they keep closing on me. Prodigy's boards are gone. AOL's boards are gone. Amazon's are as well.

You haven't been paying attention, or you're knocking down a strawman. As I've said multiple times in the past*, I was a CT from the mid-1960s (after reading Weisberg, Lane, Meagher, and Thompson) through the early 1980s, when I sprung for the Warren Commission volumes of evidence and read them through twice. I spent $2500 on the set from the Presidents Box Bookshop, and when reading them I realized the extent of the quotes taken out of context and the focus on small discrepancies the critics were utilizing to build their case. For example, more than 90% of the witnesses said three shots, no more, no less. More witnesses said two shots than said four or more. But you won't learn about that from the critics, they focus on those few who recalled four or more, like Jean Hill and Sam Holland.

I resolved the issues to my own satisfaction by going back to the evidence, rather than trusting the conspiracy theorist authors to tell me the truth. I realized their goal wasn't to tell the truth or reveal a conspiracy, it was to make money by selling books that pushed a conspiracy.

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* Here are links to the most recent three (including some when you were active):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13099237

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post12306111

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12178017
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 8th April 2022, 07:46 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Nope. Hank, like me, was once a JFK CT nutjob. And one day he bothered look into the facts on both sides, and found the conspiracy crew to be lacking anything solid other than the dead bodies of JFK, Tippit, and Oswald. Then he read the entire Warren Commission report...
Not exactly. I had read that Final Report (800+ pages) side by side with conspiracy books pointing out the supposed Warren Commission lies plenty of times. I verified the Commission said the things the critics said were lies. But I never verified whether they were actually lies. I trusted the critics to tell me the truth. It was only when I sprung for the 26 volumes of Testimony and Evidence and read through all 26 volumes twice that I realized the conspiracy authors were lying to me.

But spot on with everything else you posted.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 8th April 2022, 07:51 AM   #345
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I must say that, at the very least from the 2021 video posted, the shoulders of Connally's jacket do look too fluffy around the soldiers.
I don't see any soldiers. Perhaps they are in Ukraine fighting the Russian invaders?
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 8th April 2022, 08:14 AM   #346
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
May as well casually mention that we may or may not be on the cusp of having physical proof of a conspiracy. From over a year ago now, here is the Youtube video of the updated version of Angelos Leiloglou's 3d model of Dealey Plaza - just watch 90 seconds in to 16:03: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niyDUSF02Zc&t=963s

Of course, it will take further verification that this is the one and only true interpretation of the photographic/geometrical evidence in Dealey Plaza. And even if the Single Bullet Theory were proven false, we may even see years of copium for the possibility of the official story being true without the single bullet theory being true.
After watching that, one of the videos YouTube suggested was this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDgG5MKndo

Just to let you know what YouTube thinks of that video you suggested.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 8th April 2022, 08:23 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Trivia question who are the top 3 JFK conspiracy theorist these day - or are they all dead?
The most active are DiEugenio, Fetzer, and Aguilar.

They aren't very selective however - all pretty much never met a conspiracy theory they didn't like.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 8th April 2022, 12:15 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
You have the forensic evidence nailed down?
Of course he doesn't have it "nailed down". He is just stamping his feet and saying he is right.

But to get to more serious matters. To me a key sign that someone is not serious about investigating the case is when they take seriously the crap about the head movement to the back either proving or providing significant evidence that the or a shot hit Kennedy in the front of the head. As soon as I read that I dismiss what the person says. Why? Well because it indicates the person takes movies and TV physics way to seriously and hasn't done real research.
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Old 8th April 2022, 12:48 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
The most active are DiEugenio, Fetzer, and Aguilar.

They aren't very selective however - all pretty much never met a conspiracy theory they didn't like.
Thanks; familiar with Fetzer and Aguilar but don't remember DE.
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Old 9th April 2022, 02:06 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I come into the conversation late, until fairly recently I only really knew the terms "grassy knoll" and "book depository" and the Seinfeld parody of the Oliver Stone film.

It is a good illustration and, again, more or less what I said.

And, not that it makes any difference, I believe Conally was turning to the left.
Nope.

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Old 10th April 2022, 06:53 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You: Two decades of grumbling that went nowhere.

Me: 6 years of fact-checking and information-sorting.

Guess what? The JFK conspiracy crowd has the forensic evidence nailed down.
You may have spent 6 years fact checking, but you haven't any "facts" that are true. You keep coming back to the autopsy and have yet to produce one fact that demonstrates the autopsy was in error, just supposition on your and the other CTs around. Your comments have been destroyed, yet you seem incapable of admitting when you're wrong. 6 years of wasted effort is what I WOULD CLASSIFY YOUR WORK. (Caps intended)
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Old 14th April 2022, 08:38 AM   #352
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You: Two decades of grumbling that went nowhere.

Me: 6 years of fact-checking and information-sorting.

Guess what? The JFK conspiracy crowd has the forensic evidence nailed down.
Apparently Micah Java has turned into a drive-by poster at the present time. Nearly two weeks since he posted three times in roughly a 20-minute span. And of course, except for one minor attempt to defend his "two decade" remark, and one remark about Connally appearing to have puffy 'soldiers', he hasn't bothered to even try to engage with anybody here.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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Old 14th April 2022, 09:17 AM   #353
bknight
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Apparently Micah Java has turned into a drive-by poster at the present time. Nearly two weeks since he posted three times in roughly a 20-minute span. And of course, except for one minor attempt to defend his "two decade" remark, and one remark about Connally appearing to have puffy 'soldiers', he hasn't bothered to even try to engage with anybody here.
Seagull troll now, at best. I haven't hung around here for quit some time as I''ve spent almost 100% in the 9/11 threads. I just browsed when I was bored.
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Old 22nd April 2022, 12:30 PM   #354
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This is excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sh06VUiXaA

Ask a Mortician recounts the handling of JFK's body from Parkland all the way to the funeral. All of the important side-factors which drove the decisions made about the handling of the body, the autopsy, and funeral are covered perfectly.

A key name I'd never heard before plays a major factor in Jackie's choices:

Jessica Mitford, and her book: "The American Way of Death."

Sometimes it takes an expert to add needed context to an event.

Check it out, it's worth your time.
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Old 23rd April 2022, 07:20 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This is excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sh06VUiXaA

Ask a Mortician recounts the handling of JFK's body from Parkland all the way to the funeral. All of the important side-factors which drove the decisions made about the handling of the body, the autopsy, and funeral are covered perfectly.

A key name I'd never heard before plays a major factor in Jackie's choices:

Jessica Mitford, and her book: "The American Way of Death."

Sometimes it takes an expert to add needed context to an event.

Check it out, it's worth your time.
It was a good video and answered a few questions and reenforced the notions of control that the Kennedys had over the handling of JFK.
It won't satisfy some ignorant individuals concerns about the autopsy "failure, cover ups and conspiracy".
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Old 24th April 2022, 02:10 PM   #356
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You mean to tell me that the beloved Kennedys were/are themselves part of the Establishment/Powers That Be?

Say it ain’t so!
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Old 30th April 2022, 11:28 AM   #357
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Some meandering thoughts:

The US intelligence community, to the extent such a massive set of organizations can be generalized as partisan or ideological one way or another, is mostly moderately liberal to center-right. Above all, they desire access to the President, regardless of who that person is.

FDR during WWII, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Ford, Reagan, both Bushes, Obama, and Biden granted them that. Johnson and especially Nixon, to some extent Carter, Clinton, and Trump, not so much. The President, the National Security Advisor and NSC staff, and, in the case of the second Bush administration, the Offices of the Vice President and Secretary of Defense tend to get away with ignoring or bullying the Deep State if they feel so inclined (Trump certainly did, for the most part). The preferences of policymakers almost always trump those of the spooks.

Though obviously, more often than not Presidents love how much power the spooks offer them both in terms of access to the most classified state secrets and of course, covert action. Kennedy did not just conform to that reality, he EMBODIED it. One could make a plausible case that the CIA and broader intelligence community never had a better friend in the White House than the 35th President.

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Old 30th April 2022, 05:39 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Some meandering thoughts:

The US intelligence community, to the extent such a massive set of organizations can be generalized as partisan or ideological one way or another, is mostly moderately liberal to center-right. Above all, they desire access to the President, regardless of who that person is.

FDR during WWII, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Ford, Reagan, both Bushes, Obama, and Biden granted them that. Johnson and especially Nixon, to some extent Carter, Clinton, and Trump, not so much. The President, the National Security Advisor and NSC staff, and, in the case of the second Bush administration, the Offices of the Vice President and Secretary of Defense tend to get away with ignoring or bullying the Deep State if they feel so inclined (Trump certainly did, for the most part). The preferences of policymakers almost always trump those of the spooks.

Though obviously, more often than not Presidents love how much power the spooks offer them both in terms of access to the most classified state secrets and of course, covert action. Kennedy did not just conform to that reality, he EMBODIED it. One could make a plausible case that the CIA and broader intelligence community never had a better friend in the White House than the 35th President.
Indeed.

The CIA/MIC assassinating him would be tantamount to them killing the goose that was laying their golden eggs for them. If there really was an upper echelon plot to assassinate him, they would have made absolutely certain to destroy any and all documents and information relating to Northwoods, Mongoose, Bingo and Dirty Trick.
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Old 30th April 2022, 06:02 PM   #359
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CIA always has access to the White House through the National Security Advisor, and Director of Central Intelligence. The issue has always been how well the NSC listens to CIA, and how good CIA's intel is on any given topic in the first place.

Much has changed since 1960-1963. JFK inherited a CIA that had an active covert-action arm thanks to Ike trying to fight the advance of Communism without starting WWIII. This led to eight years of increasingly risky operations, the last of which became the Bay of Pigs, which JFK let himself get stuck with. The Bay of Pigs is always cited by CTists as the crack between JFK and the CIA, and while he felt he'd been lied to by the CIA, the fallout was mostly administrative (guys who were going to retire anyway resigned, and so on).

JFK and RFK expanded the CIA well beyond what most at Langley felt was wise. His administration began the program of the CIA reaching out to "patriotic" journalists in key news publications to plant stories. JMWAVE became a colossus in the Gulf of Mexico. And he spun up US Army Special Forces, and the US Navy SEALs for a covert action arm under the control of the DoD.

The assassination CTs always needed the CIA to be involved, because they needed JFK's murder to be an inside job. When I say that they needed, I mean for all CTists there could be no other truth than a conspiracy with the CIA in the center. As the 60s rolled on into the 70s, and revelations about the CIA working with the Maffia via Mongoose, Hoover, and eventually Watergate would cement the JFK Assassination CT as an unverified fact. 99% of news stories about the anniversary of the assassination include some poll number stating that X-% of Americans believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, something that can be found in hack local news rages, all the way up to the NY Times.

This is irresponsible considering the bulk of the CIA's records from the 1950s and 1960s are declassified. Nothing in their history indicates they could have pulled it off. And certainly nothing in their entire history shows they could have kept it secret.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:11 AM   #360
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Given the evidence that has emerged over the last 10 years, I would say that the JFK assassination conspiracy theory is no longer a theory but a verified fact. I would say the say same thing about the RFK assassination. In the case of RFK's death, we have hard audio evidence that more bullets were fired in the pantry than Sirhan's gun could have fired.
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