[Merged] Alec Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun - Page 3

JayUtah · 22nd October 2021, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

//Again pending details, early reporting of a fluid story, right retained to adjust opinion later, all that dutifully acknowledged//

You're an actor. If the gun safety guy says the gun is safe... you kind of have to go on his word, if that was the scenario.

You must go on the armorer's word, and follow his instructions carefully. You don't fiddle with the prop. You don't "check" it. The actor's job is to do exactly what the combat director, armorer, and other safety-oriented people tell you to do, and not second-guess them. It's their responsibility to hand you a prop they know is safe if operated correctly, and it's your responsibility to operate it the way they tell you.

crescent · 22nd October 2021, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I am a bit lost on how two people could have been so grievously wounded. The reporting implies it was a single shot.

Perhaps a barrel obstruction of some sort caused a catastrophic failure? Maybe the pistol caused something close by to burst and send fragments flying?

Two people injured so badly makes me think that something sent fragments of material flying.

Gun gets dropped (maybe even intentionally as part of the scene). A bit of dirt and a pebble or two get into the barrel without anyone noticing. Out brave character picks up the gun and fires, aiming at or near the camera.

I could see that being the sort of mistake an armorer with less experience in movie making could do. Might be a great armorer on the range, but dealing with the less controlled environment of a movie set could cause a situationally inexperienced person to miss a thing or two - even of they are overall very well experienced and skilled.

(ETA: Okay, that theory was disproved within one minute of posting it. It was a real bullet, not just debris in the barrel or injury from being too close to the gas discharge from a blank.)

Sherkeu · 22nd October 2021, 09:19 AM

Several news outlets are reporting this from showbiz411

Quote:

An eyewitness on set tells this column that the bullet went straight through the body of DP Halyna Hutchins and into the clavicle of the film’s director Joel Souza.

Very quickly the set was locked down. Ambulance and helicopters arrived. Hutchins and Souza were sent straight to the hospital. Hutchins died en route in a helicopter.

On the ground, Baldwin was in shock but composed. He kept asking why he was handed a “hot gun.” Our eyewitness said Baldwin kept saying “In all my years, I’ve never been handed a hot gun.”

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 09:22 AM

From Twitter, "Shannon Watts" (whatever it's worth):

Quote:

IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, says the prop gun fired on the set of “Rust” contained a live round, and that the prop master was non-union. Prop masters or licensed armorers are responsible for handling weapons on set, including loading blanks.

ETA:

https://www.indiewire.com/2021/10/al...mpression=true

Quote:

In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”

RecoveringYuppy · 22nd October 2021, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

The words "sorry I shot and killed her" are conspicuously absent

Is that a joke or do you seriously think that would be appropriate? Those words aren't even remotely appropriate IMO.

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd October 2021, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

From Twitter, "Shannon Watts" (whatever it's worth):

ETA:

https://www.indiewire.com/2021/10/al...mpression=true

Big if true

JayUtah · 22nd October 2021, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

It's a western show, and my best guess is he was doing literally what the shot in that show was calling for and what he was being directed to do. How many movies, shows, etc. have a gun pointed at the camera?

Oh, sure. The "looking up/down the gun barrel" framing is part of the vocabulary, and one of the things you can do in film that you can't do in live theater. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a dramatic shot just like you suggest.

Quote:

The line, "You never point a gun at something you don't want to kill" isn't always the way the real world works.

But it is, in the sense that inadvertent shootings happen enough that the rule should stand. Want to have an up-the-barrel shot? Use a non-functional firearm. Want to have the gun fire? Add it in post. Absolutely need to have real smoke? Triple-check for blanks, put a Perspex barrier in front of the camera, have the actor aim just off-axis, remove all unnecessary people, and film from a distance with a long lens. If you insist on having an operating firearm on the set and you insist on firing it at a manned camera, you are engaging in behavior that the rule was meant to cover. In my experience that's deliberately reckless.

Quote:

No one wanted this to happen, ******* NO ONE wanted this to happen.

Well, of course not. I've been present for near-fatal accidents at our theater. A guy got his head caught in moving stage parts and it nearly tore his face off. Blood everywhere. No one desires these things to happen. It's all about complacency and pressure to produce. You think that you can get away with being reckless "just this one time." The victim, a friend of mine, fully acknowledges that he thought he could get away with violating safety rules "just that one time."

Quote:

That a director and a DoP were standing behind a camera, directing the scene and the gun went off\was fired, injuring both, is not that far out of the realm of thought.

We don't know the details, but I agree it's not out of the realm of thought. But as the lawyers would want to say, this is strict liability, or rather, res ipse loquitur. If someone gets shot on a film set with a "prop" gun, that's all the proof you need that someone wasn't being appropriately careful.

Quote:

Chastise as you like, and I'm open to being wrong, but I'd be shocked if this is anyone's fault but the armorer\prop master.

It's the armorer's fault whether it's his fault or not. You get what I mean by that? He has one job and one job only: to make sure the weapons used in the production do not actually harm anyone, no matter who's actually handling them. The way I'm speculating the scenario unfolded in my mind is probably little different than what you're thinking of. We haven't seen any evidence that Baldwin did anything other than what he was directed to do. I'm hoping the investigation gets to the bottom of it and we get more accurate details soon.

Myriad · 22nd October 2021, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over

Or it could be premeditated MURDER!

You have to say that in a fake Belgian accent to be convincing.

"Or eet could be plee-med-ee-tay-tahd male-dale!"

Try it out loud, while holding a snifter of cognac with one hand and tapping your forehead with the other. See how much more authoritative it sounds that way?

Beerina · 22nd October 2021, 09:52 AM

Why do they even use guns with powerful blank charges anymore? Half the time they redo the sound track anyway. Just a little flash should be sufficient, then add in a booming bang at your heart's content.

Hercules Rockefeller · 22nd October 2021, 09:53 AM

Were there any butlers on the set?

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Why do they even use guns with powerful blank charges anymore? Half the time they redo the sound track anyway. Just a little flash should be sufficient, then add in a booming bang at your heart's content.

Honestly I never know what, from an onset filmmaking angle, a blank could do that a children's cap gun couldn't do.

Even in the old pre-CGI days all you needed was some kind of smoke and some kind of noise. If you don't like the onset noise it would be the easiest Foley job to put a stock gunshot sound effect over it.

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd October 2021, 09:58 AM

One thing about revolvers in movies is that you can see the bullets if you're looking from the front. If the goal is realistic firearms, that means having realistic looking revolver ammo (as opposed to just blanks that look strange).

Here's a pic of what I mean. You can see the heads of all but the bullet actually in the firing position from the front.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ha...-49713821.html

Using a revolver for a prop might mean using non-firing cartridges that appear to be live rounds in non-firing scenes. It must make it hard to ensure safety to have dummies that look like live rounds in the same set, though one could conceive of safety measures and and other modifications that would make loading real live ammo impossible.

How exactly a live round got on set is a good question, if indeed this is what happened. I can't think of any good reason live ammo should be anywhere on set.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

This is horrible. I mean, aside from the dead woman, I can't even imagine the emotional toll this will have on Baldwin. Forget about career implications.

The hate and clowning he is going to get over this will be legendary. Just the memes alone will be devastating.

Well, that didn't take long...

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...y-kill-someone

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 10:07 AM

Yeah because that's the same thing

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd October 2021, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Yeah because that's the same thing

you start to see why the crazies are starting to prefer Epoch Times or whatever over Fox News. This is pretty weak, I know they can do better if they try.

Tie the DP to the Clintons somehow, say it was a hit. Where's Q when you need him?

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Yeah because that's the same thing

I saw the articles and posts, and rolled my eyes. Alec, as has come out now, holds no responsibility for this incident. Although, look at the source. It's Fox News. They're still mad Alec made fun of Trump. Imagine being so heartless that you try to score a "gotcha" after an accident that killed a 42 year old woman? I'd be ashamed.

alfaniner · 22nd October 2021, 10:09 AM

I find it hard to believe that a live round would be anywhere near a movie set, especially with the principal actors on scene. I'm sure we'll find out soon what really happened.

Ranb · 22nd October 2021, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

The words "sorry I shot and killed her" are conspicuously absent

Because confessing to a (possible) crime is never a good thing to do until you get legal advice.

Ranb

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 10:11 AM

It might not have been "round" in the traditional sense. There were no full, complete, live bullets involved in the incident that killed Brandon Lee for instance but essentially part of one blank bullet was left over in the barrel and the next blank bullet fired basically shot it out turning two blanks into one defacto bullet.

So this incident MIGHT have not involved what we think of as a full, complete, live bullet at all.

Bob001 · 22nd October 2021, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

The relevant unions are on strike right now, so there's a good chance it was a non-union armorer.
....

The unions voted to strike, but reached an agreement before they actually walked out.

Quote:

(CNN) A threatened strike on major TV and film production was averted Saturday night, just hours before a midnight deadline.

The association representing producers made a tentative deal with the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employee (IATSE), a union representing roughly 60,000 film and television workers, including technicians and craftspeople, IATSE announced Saturday.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/16/enter...tse/index.html

Bob001 · 22nd October 2021, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

It might not have been "round" in the traditional sense. There were no full, complete, live bullets involved in the incident that killed Brandon Lee for instance but essentially part of one blank bullet was left over in the barrel and the next blank bullet fired basically shot it out turning two blanks into one defacto bullet.

So this incident MIGHT have not involved what we think of as a full, complete, live bullet at all.

"Round" just means cartridge. It could be applied to a blank cartridge. I don't think the use of the word "round" means much.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 10:21 AM

The International Cinematographer's Guild (of which Hutchins was a member) is asking for a full investigation, which to be fair certainly is/was going to happen anyway.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The International Cinematographer's Guild (of which Hutchins was a member) is asking for a full investigation, which to fair certainly is/was going to happen anyway.

I would be shocked if anyone wanted anything different. The only exception is probably the individual in charge of making sure this doesn't happen...

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

"Round" just mean cartridge. It could be applied to a blank cartridge. I don't think the use of the word "round" means much.

I hate gun terminology. I just mean that a live, meant for firing complete bullet being introduced to the scene is not necessary for the incident to have occurred.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I hate gun terminology. I just mean that a live, meant for firing complete bullet being introduced to the scene is not necessary for the incident to have occurred.

Ackchyually...

In all seriousness though, me too. I'm not familiar with guns or anything, so learning the terminology would be useless for me. I get corrected all the time.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 10:28 AM

Oh know it, I just hate it. 20 years military and a gun owner. But everything is "champagne not sparkling wine except on Tuesdays when the moon is full then it's technically an arachnid" when you're talking guns.

All I'm saying is just because there was no shooty-shooty on top of the bang-bangy in the boom-boomy that doesn't mean can't still hurt or kill someone.

shemp · 22nd October 2021, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over

I'm now thinking this is a rare case of assisted suicide by the conspiratorial actions of a Director of Photography and an Assistant Props Manager.

That's enough out of you, go crawl back in your hole!

Bob001 · 22nd October 2021, 10:35 AM

Baldwin tweets:

Quote:

“Rust” star and producer Alec Baldwin, who discharged the prop gun that killed the film’s director of photography and injured its director, says he’s “fully cooperating with the police investigation” into the incident.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...dwin-statement

No new details about what happened.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

I saw the articles and posts, and rolled my eyes. Alec, as has come out now, holds no responsibility for this incident. Although, look at the source. It's Fox News. They're still mad Alec made fun of Trump. Imagine being so heartless that you try to score a "gotcha" after an accident that killed a 42 year old woman? I'd be ashamed.

I don't expect a lot of people to give Baldwin a pass in this case (the officer he was referring to was later exonerated). So, people are just going to say it's fair play to judge him just as quickly. Just like he apparently judged Cheney for his hunting accident.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. In the age of Twitter, anyway.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't expect a lot of people to give Baldwin a pass in this case (the officer he was referring to was later exonerated). So, people are just going to say it's fair play to judge him just as quickly. Just like he apparently judged Cheney for his hunting accident.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. In the age of Twitter, anyway.

Yeah as long as you everything is a sword to you, that makes sense.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

All I'm saying is just because there was no shooty-shooty on top of the bang-bangy in the boom-boomy you can still hurt or kill someone.

Originally Posted by Rallo Tubbs

Bang-Bang, Boom-Boom, that thing's fully operational!

Good to know that even people with experience with guns don't all speak the same language at times.

I can't imagine having to get on the set again after something like this happens. I wonder what they'll do.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't expect a lot of people to give Baldwin a pass in this case (the officer he was referring to was later exonerated). So, people are just going to say it's fair play to judge him just as quickly. Just like he apparently judged Cheney for his hunting accident.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. In the age of Twitter, anyway.

Cheney knew he was walking around with a loaded gun, that's a bit different don't you think?

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Cheney knew he was walking around with a loaded gun, that's a bit different don't you think?

Yes but there's dishonest comparisons to made... oh wait I'm sorry "that people are saying *wink wink*"

lobosrul5 · 22nd October 2021, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Good to know that even people with experience with guns don't all speak the same language at times.

I can't imagine having to get on the set again after something like this happens. I wonder what they'll do.

My dad and I used to refer to shotgun shells as bullets at sporting clays matches. It was just an inside joke, and to see how many anally retentive shooters were present. The answer was many.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Cheney knew he was walking around with a loaded gun, that's a bit different don't you think?

You have to admit that the tweets are pretty ironic when looking at the current situation. People are just as justified as he was in rushing to condemnation, imo.

We need to see a full investigation to know what really happened. Right now a whole lot is just speculation.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

You have to admit that the tweets are pretty ironic when looking at the current situation. People are just as justified as he was in rushing to condemnation, imo.

We need to see a full investigation to know what really happened. Right now a whole lot is just speculation.

If you view the tragic death of this woman due to incompetence on a movie scene as a situation you're happy to exploit for little more than political purposes, then keep going.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

If you view the tragic death of this woman due to incompetence on a movie scene as a situation you're happy to exploit for little more than political purposes, then keep going.

I didn't write the article, bro. Complain to FOX.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I didn't write the article, bro. Complain to FOX.

You found it, posted it, linked to it, and have supported it in multiple posts.

I'm also not complaining. I'm mocking the thought process that concluded now is a good time to make false comparisons in a vain attempt at a "gotcha!"

None of us can imagine what this feels like and what he's going through. Republicans, Fox, and the entirety of the GOP tell us after every mother ******* mass shooting that "now isn't the time to talk about it. It's time for healing", but they're the first ones to **** on someone who is going through what is arguably the hardest thing anyone would have to deal with for no better reason than political differences.

It's distasteful, it's hypocritical, and it's pathetic, what Fox is doing. Why you would support that is beyond me.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

You found it, posted it, linked to it, and have supported it in multiple posts.

I'm also not complaining. I'm mocking the thought process that concluded now is a good time to make false comparisons in a vain attempt at a "gotcha!"

None of us can imagine what this feels like and what he's going through. Republicans, Fox, and the entirety of the GOP tell us after every mother ******* mass shooting that "now isn't the time to talk about it. It's time for healing", but they're the first ones to **** on someone who is going through what is arguably the hardest thing anyone would have to deal with for no better reason than political differences.

It's distasteful, it's hypocritical, and it's pathetic, what Fox is doing. Why you would support that is beyond me.

You must have missed my first post in the thread, from page 1:

Originally Posted by Warp12

This is horrible. I mean, aside from the dead woman, I can't even imagine the emotional toll this will have on Baldwin. Forget about career implications.

The hate and clowning he is going to get over this will be legendary. Just the memes alone will be devastating.

So, you can clearly see where my reference to the FOX article makes sense.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

You must have missed my first post in the thread, from page 1:

So, you can clearly see where my reference to the FOX article makes sense.

It would have made sense if you referenced that post when sharing the article, but whatever.

I don't think there's an appropriate time to clown in this situation. No one died in Cheney's scenario, and I'm not familiar with the other incident that you posted Alec's tweet about. I'm more than happy to discuss how something like this happened, or what they'll do after, but taking a **** on Alec right now just to score some political points is tasteless. Sharing it is also tasteless, but that's just if you ask me.

22nd October 2021, 09:18 AM	#82
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,286	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I am a bit lost on how two people could have been so grievously wounded. The reporting implies it was a single shot. Perhaps a barrel obstruction of some sort caused a catastrophic failure? Maybe the pistol caused something close by to burst and send fragments flying? Two people injured so badly makes me think that something sent fragments of material flying. Gun gets dropped (maybe even intentionally as part of the scene). A bit of dirt and a pebble or two get into the barrel without anyone noticing. Out brave character picks up the gun and fires, aiming at or near the camera. I could see that being the sort of mistake an armorer with less experience in movie making could do. Might be a great armorer on the range, but dealing with the less controlled environment of a movie set could cause a situationally inexperienced person to miss a thing or two - even of they are overall very well experienced and skilled. (ETA: Okay, that theory was disproved within one minute of posting it. It was a real bullet, not just debris in the barrel or injury from being too close to the gas discharge from a blank.)
	Last edited by crescent; 22nd October 2021 at 09:23 AM.

22nd October 2021, 09:22 AM	#84
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	From Twitter, "Shannon Watts" (whatever it's worth): Quote: IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, says the prop gun fired on the set of “Rust” contained a live round, and that the prop master was non-union. Prop masters or licensed armorers are responsible for handling weapons on set, including loading blanks. ETA: https://www.indiewire.com/2021/10/al...mpression=true Quote: In the email that IATSE Local 44 sent to its membership, Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc described the event as an “an accidental weapons discharge” in which “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza … Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
	Last edited by Warp12; 22nd October 2021 at 09:25 AM.

22nd October 2021, 09:37 AM	#88
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 19,783	Originally Posted by Dumb All Over Or it could be premeditated MURDER! You have to say that in a fake Belgian accent to be convincing. "Or eet could be plee-med-ee-tay-tahd male-dale!" Try it out loud, while holding a snifter of cognac with one hand and tapping your forehead with the other. See how much more authoritative it sounds that way?
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

22nd October 2021, 09:52 AM	#89
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 31,790	Why do they even use guns with powerful blank charges anymore? Half the time they redo the sound track anyway. Just a little flash should be sufficient, then add in a booming bang at your heart's content.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

22nd October 2021, 09:53 AM	#90
Hercules Rockefeller Woof! Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 3,973	Were there any butlers on the set?
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

22nd October 2021, 09:11 AM	#81
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,247	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue //Again pending details, early reporting of a fluid story, right retained to adjust opinion later, all that dutifully acknowledged// You're an actor. If the gun safety guy says the gun is safe... you kind of have to go on his word, if that was the scenario. You must go on the armorer's word, and follow his instructions carefully. You don't fiddle with the prop. You don't "check" it. The actor's job is to do exactly what the combat director, armorer, and other safety-oriented people tell you to do, and not second-guess them. It's their responsibility to hand you a prop they know is safe if operated correctly, and it's your responsibility to operate it the way they tell you.

22nd October 2021, 09:19 AM	#83
Sherkeu Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Disneyland Posts: 2,754	Several news outlets are reporting this from showbiz411 Quote: An eyewitness on set tells this column that the bullet went straight through the body of DP Halyna Hutchins and into the clavicle of the film’s director Joel Souza. Very quickly the set was locked down. Ambulance and helicopters arrived. Hutchins and Souza were sent straight to the hospital. Hutchins died en route in a helicopter. On the ground, Baldwin was in shock but composed. He kept asking why he was handed a “hot gun.” Our eyewitness said Baldwin kept saying “In all my years, I’ve never been handed a hot gun.”

22nd October 2021, 09:25 AM	#85
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14,185	Originally Posted by Thermal The words "sorry I shot and killed her" are conspicuously absent Is that a joke or do you seriously think that would be appropriate? Those words aren't even remotely appropriate IMO.

22nd October 2021, 09:26 AM	#86
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Warp12 From Twitter, "Shannon Watts" (whatever it's worth): ETA: https://www.indiewire.com/2021/10/al...mpression=true Big if true

22nd October 2021, 09:32 AM	#87
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,247	Originally Posted by plague311 It's a western show, and my best guess is he was doing literally what the shot in that show was calling for and what he was being directed to do. How many movies, shows, etc. have a gun pointed at the camera? Oh, sure. The "looking up/down the gun barrel" framing is part of the vocabulary, and one of the things you can do in film that you can't do in live theater. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a dramatic shot just like you suggest. Quote: The line, "You never point a gun at something you don't want to kill" isn't always the way the real world works. But it is, in the sense that inadvertent shootings happen enough that the rule should stand. Want to have an up-the-barrel shot? Use a non-functional firearm. Want to have the gun fire? Add it in post. Absolutely need to have real smoke? Triple-check for blanks, put a Perspex barrier in front of the camera, have the actor aim just off-axis, remove all unnecessary people, and film from a distance with a long lens. If you insist on having an operating firearm on the set and you insist on firing it at a manned camera, you are engaging in behavior that the rule was meant to cover. In my experience that's deliberately reckless. Quote: No one wanted this to happen, ******* NO ONE wanted this to happen. Well, of course not. I've been present for near-fatal accidents at our theater. A guy got his head caught in moving stage parts and it nearly tore his face off. Blood everywhere. No one desires these things to happen. It's all about complacency and pressure to produce. You think that you can get away with being reckless "just this one time." The victim, a friend of mine, fully acknowledges that he thought he could get away with violating safety rules "just that one time." Quote: That a director and a DoP were standing behind a camera, directing the scene and the gun went off\was fired, injuring both, is not that far out of the realm of thought. We don't know the details, but I agree it's not out of the realm of thought. But as the lawyers would want to say, this is strict liability, or rather, res ipse loquitur. If someone gets shot on a film set with a "prop" gun, that's all the proof you need that someone wasn't being appropriately careful. Quote: Chastise as you like, and I'm open to being wrong, but I'd be shocked if this is anyone's fault but the armorer\prop master. It's the armorer's fault whether it's his fault or not. You get what I mean by that? He has one job and one job only: to make sure the weapons used in the production do not actually harm anyone, no matter who's actually handling them. The way I'm speculating the scenario unfolded in my mind is probably little different than what you're thinking of. We haven't seen any evidence that Baldwin did anything other than what he was directed to do. I'm hoping the investigation gets to the bottom of it and we get more accurate details soon.

22nd October 2021, 09:56 AM	#91
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	Originally Posted by Beerina Why do they even use guns with powerful blank charges anymore? Half the time they redo the sound track anyway. Just a little flash should be sufficient, then add in a booming bang at your heart's content. Honestly I never know what, from an onset filmmaking angle, a blank could do that a children's cap gun couldn't do. Even in the old pre-CGI days all you needed was some kind of smoke and some kind of noise. If you don't like the onset noise it would be the easiest Foley job to put a stock gunshot sound effect over it.

22nd October 2021, 09:58 AM	#92
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	One thing about revolvers in movies is that you can see the bullets if you're looking from the front. If the goal is realistic firearms, that means having realistic looking revolver ammo (as opposed to just blanks that look strange). Here's a pic of what I mean. You can see the heads of all but the bullet actually in the firing position from the front. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ha...-49713821.html Using a revolver for a prop might mean using non-firing cartridges that appear to be live rounds in non-firing scenes. It must make it hard to ensure safety to have dummies that look like live rounds in the same set, though one could conceive of safety measures and and other modifications that would make loading real live ammo impossible. How exactly a live round got on set is a good question, if indeed this is what happened. I can't think of any good reason live ammo should be anywhere on set.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 22nd October 2021 at 09:59 AM.

22nd October 2021, 10:03 AM	#93
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by Warp12 This is horrible. I mean, aside from the dead woman, I can't even imagine the emotional toll this will have on Baldwin. Forget about career implications. The hate and clowning he is going to get over this will be legendary. Just the memes alone will be devastating. Well, that didn't take long... https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...y-kill-someone
	Last edited by Warp12; 22nd October 2021 at 11:03 AM.

22nd October 2021, 10:07 AM	#94
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	Yeah because that's the same thing

22nd October 2021, 10:08 AM	#95
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Yeah because that's the same thing you start to see why the crazies are starting to prefer Epoch Times or whatever over Fox News. This is pretty weak, I know they can do better if they try. Tie the DP to the Clintons somehow, say it was a hit. Where's Q when you need him?
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 22nd October 2021 at 10:10 AM.

22nd October 2021, 10:09 AM	#96
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,707	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Yeah because that's the same thing I saw the articles and posts, and rolled my eyes. Alec, as has come out now, holds no responsibility for this incident. Although, look at the source. It's Fox News. They're still mad Alec made fun of Trump. Imagine being so heartless that you try to score a "gotcha" after an accident that killed a 42 year old woman? I'd be ashamed.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

22nd October 2021, 10:09 AM	#97
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 27,407	I find it hard to believe that a live round would be anywhere near a movie set, especially with the principal actors on scene. I'm sure we'll find out soon what really happened.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

22nd October 2021, 10:10 AM	#98
Ranb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 10,662	Originally Posted by Thermal The words "sorry I shot and killed her" are conspicuously absent Because confessing to a (possible) crime is never a good thing to do until you get legal advice. Ranb

22nd October 2021, 10:11 AM	#99
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	It might not have been "round" in the traditional sense. There were no full, complete, live bullets involved in the incident that killed Brandon Lee for instance but essentially part of one blank bullet was left over in the barrel and the next blank bullet fired basically shot it out turning two blanks into one defacto bullet. So this incident MIGHT have not involved what we think of as a full, complete, live bullet at all.
	Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd October 2021 at 10:15 AM.

22nd October 2021, 10:13 AM	#100
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,303	Originally Posted by JayUtah The relevant unions are on strike right now, so there's a good chance it was a non-union armorer. .... The unions voted to strike, but reached an agreement before they actually walked out. Quote: (CNN) A threatened strike on major TV and film production was averted Saturday night, just hours before a midnight deadline. The association representing producers made a tentative deal with the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employee (IATSE), a union representing roughly 60,000 film and television workers, including technicians and craftspeople, IATSE announced Saturday. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/16/enter...tse/index.html

22nd October 2021, 10:20 AM	#101
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,303	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue It might not have been "round" in the traditional sense. There were no full, complete, live bullets involved in the incident that killed Brandon Lee for instance but essentially part of one blank bullet was left over in the barrel and the next blank bullet fired basically shot it out turning two blanks into one defacto bullet. So this incident MIGHT have not involved what we think of as a full, complete, live bullet at all. "Round" just means cartridge. It could be applied to a blank cartridge. I don't think the use of the word "round" means much.
	Last edited by Bob001; 22nd October 2021 at 10:25 AM.

22nd October 2021, 10:21 AM	#102
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	The International Cinematographer's Guild (of which Hutchins was a member) is asking for a full investigation, which to be fair certainly is/was going to happen anyway.
	Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd October 2021 at 10:23 AM.

22nd October 2021, 10:22 AM	#103
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,707	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The International Cinematographer's Guild (of which Hutchins was a member) is asking for a full investigation, which to fair certainly is/was going to happen anyway. I would be shocked if anyone wanted anything different. The only exception is probably the individual in charge of making sure this doesn't happen...
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

22nd October 2021, 10:22 AM	#104
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	Originally Posted by Bob001 "Round" just mean cartridge. It could be applied to a blank cartridge. I don't think the use of the word "round" means much. I hate gun terminology. I just mean that a live, meant for firing complete bullet being introduced to the scene is not necessary for the incident to have occurred.

22nd October 2021, 10:25 AM	#105
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,707	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I hate gun terminology. I just mean that a live, meant for firing complete bullet being introduced to the scene is not necessary for the incident to have occurred. Ackchyually... In all seriousness though, me too. I'm not familiar with guns or anything, so learning the terminology would be useless for me. I get corrected all the time.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

22nd October 2021, 10:28 AM	#106
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	Oh know it, I just hate it. 20 years military and a gun owner. But everything is "champagne not sparkling wine except on Tuesdays when the moon is full then it's technically an arachnid" when you're talking guns. All I'm saying is just because there was no shooty-shooty on top of the bang-bangy in the boom-boomy that doesn't mean can't still hurt or kill someone.
	Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd October 2021 at 10:44 AM.

22nd October 2021, 10:31 AM	#107
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War Posts: 52,732	Originally Posted by Dumb All Over I'm now thinking this is a rare case of assisted suicide by the conspiratorial actions of a Director of Photography and an Assistant Props Manager. That's enough out of you, go crawl back in your hole!
	__________________ "Yes, I'll be around for many more centuries. You, meanwhile, will have long ago been turned into value dog food, despite your express wishes to the contrary." -- JihadJane

22nd October 2021, 10:35 AM	#108
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,303	Baldwin tweets: Quote: “Rust” star and producer Alec Baldwin, who discharged the prop gun that killed the film’s director of photography and injured its director, says he’s “fully cooperating with the police investigation” into the incident. https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...dwin-statement No new details about what happened.

22nd October 2021, 10:36 AM	#109
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by plague311 I saw the articles and posts, and rolled my eyes. Alec, as has come out now, holds no responsibility for this incident. Although, look at the source. It's Fox News. They're still mad Alec made fun of Trump. Imagine being so heartless that you try to score a "gotcha" after an accident that killed a 42 year old woman? I'd be ashamed. I don't expect a lot of people to give Baldwin a pass in this case (the officer he was referring to was later exonerated). So, people are just going to say it's fair play to judge him just as quickly. Just like he apparently judged Cheney for his hunting accident. Live by the sword, die by the sword. In the age of Twitter, anyway.

22nd October 2021, 10:36 AM	#110
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	Originally Posted by Warp12 I don't expect a lot of people to give Baldwin a pass in this case (the officer he was referring to was later exonerated). So, people are just going to say it's fair play to judge him just as quickly. Just like he apparently judged Cheney for his hunting accident. Live by the sword, die by the sword. In the age of Twitter, anyway. Yeah as long as you everything is a sword to you, that makes sense.

22nd October 2021, 10:37 AM	#111
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,707	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue All I'm saying is just because there was no shooty-shooty on top of the bang-bangy in the boom-boomy you can still hurt or kill someone. Originally Posted by Rallo Tubbs Bang-Bang, Boom-Boom, that thing's fully operational! Good to know that even people with experience with guns don't all speak the same language at times. I can't imagine having to get on the set again after something like this happens. I wonder what they'll do.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

22nd October 2021, 10:39 AM	#112
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,707	Originally Posted by Warp12 I don't expect a lot of people to give Baldwin a pass in this case (the officer he was referring to was later exonerated). So, people are just going to say it's fair play to judge him just as quickly. Just like he apparently judged Cheney for his hunting accident. Live by the sword, die by the sword. In the age of Twitter, anyway. Cheney knew he was walking around with a loaded gun, that's a bit different don't you think?
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

22nd October 2021, 10:41 AM	#113
JoeMorgue Suspended Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 42,380	Originally Posted by plague311 Cheney knew he was walking around with a loaded gun, that's a bit different don't you think? Yes but there's dishonest comparisons to made... oh wait I'm sorry "that people are saying wink wink"

22nd October 2021, 10:43 AM	#114
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,126	Originally Posted by plague311 Good to know that even people with experience with guns don't all speak the same language at times. I can't imagine having to get on the set again after something like this happens. I wonder what they'll do. My dad and I used to refer to shotgun shells as bullets at sporting clays matches. It was just an inside joke, and to see how many anally retentive shooters were present. The answer was many.
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,126

22nd October 2021, 10:44 AM	#115
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by plague311 Cheney knew he was walking around with a loaded gun, that's a bit different don't you think? You have to admit that the tweets are pretty ironic when looking at the current situation. People are just as justified as he was in rushing to condemnation, imo. We need to see a full investigation to know what really happened. Right now a whole lot is just speculation.