Continuation Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

As long as you have such a backwards SYSTEM in your House of Government, that allows the MINORITY to dictate to the MAJORITY what legislation can be passed, NO presdient can ever be held to blame for not getting things done.

As long as you have such a backwards judicial system that gives wholly unqualified people lifetime appointments to your highest court, a system that allows one party to have dominance and influence over laws YEARS after those who appointed them have gone from office, you will continue to suffer things like having religious and political dogma take away your human rights and ability to change laws that YOUR PEOPLE want changed!!!!


You need to do away with the filibuster, permanently and for everything. No other civilized country in the world has a system where the majority needs the consent of the minority to pass laws and legislation.

You need to do away with Presidential nominations and political appointments of Judges, and instead, have experience and qualifications as the basis for the various levels of federal benches.

You need to do away with lifetime appointments to the benches of the Circuit Courts and SCOTUS. Six years maximum term followed by three years standdown before possible reappointment with a maximum to two terms, and forced retirement at 65.

The system in America is broken, badly. Nothing in America is going to change until the system changes.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I think the primary focus being on "assault weapons" is a mistake. I think more widespread restrictions on age of purchase, training and licensing requirements, checks/waiting periods, etc. are of more value.

Well, if those other things are of more value, then the "assault weapon" restrictions must be of some value. Therefore, all of the above seem like good ideas to me.

I know that the "assault weapons" issue is problematic because of definitions, but it's not so hard that a bunch of legislators with paid staffs couldn't make it work pretty well. Sure, as soon as you pass the law, the lawyers will be poring over it to find loopholes, but that's to be expected. That isn't a reason to avoid passing the law.

Quote:

The ideas of banning guns in general are just pie-in-the-sky stuff. Screeching about that is a waste of time, and counter productive.

I agree. Has anyone done that here? I haven't noticed it. I just skimmed some of the posts, though. Maybe someone said it.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by stanfr

Those photos apparently have been confirmed. The latest social media rumor is that he was transgender, with photos of him cross-dressing circulating online. Those seem highly suspect.

There are also rumors that he is an "illegal immigrant", but those aren't true either.

ETA: The transgender photo claims are definitively untrue. They are taken from unrelated posts made by an innocent person on Reddit. The same person has posted that they're aware of the rumors using their photos but they're obviously not the shooter, who is dead.

[Skeptic Ginger]

So now it's 19 kids not 18? I hope this news report is wrong.

Gunman kills 19 children, 2 teachers at Texas elementary

Quote:

The carnage began with the 18-year-old suspect, identified as Salvador Ramos, shooting his own grandmother, who survived, authorities said.

This part I hope is true.

[Lurch]

Anyone who is implacably opposed to sensible gun reform should be made to visit a massacre by gunfire immediately after the smoke clears. To hear the moans of the maimed, and the agonal breathing of the soon-to-die. To see the blood and brain matter. To smell the blood and piss and ****.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by stanfr

Those photos apparently have been confirmed. The latest social media rumor is that he was transgender, with photos of him cross-dressing circulating online. Those seem highly suspect.

I can't find the link now, but I gather that some of the "chans" (4 chan and the like) are circulating photos of a transgender person who has the same name as the shooter. It's not the shooter, just a person who unfortunately shares the same name.

But fits an agenda to claim that the shooter is trans, so haters are going to run with that. When it gets proven to not be the same person, they'll just explain it away with stupid hateful conspiracy theories if they ever even notice that their dumb trans theory has been debunked. Because people suck and that's the modern way of things.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Between Roe V Wade and the Republican legislators refusing common sense gun control measures I hope the voters defeat all these GOP bastards in Nov.

Yes, that is pie in the sky but as has been said today, enough is enough.

And a border patrol agent who didn't wait for back-up and is said to have taken out the shooter, that man is a hero!

Some of the kids at the school have parents in the border patrol.

[erlando]

Now now. We have to remember that even though this doesn't happen anywhere else in the civilized world the USA is special and cannot be compared to anywhere else. These 19 school kids between 9 and 11 years old and their teachers are a necessary and acceptable sacrifice to uphold the sacred rights of a free people.

Thoughts and prayers, and then we move on like nothing happened.

See you back here next time where we'll go through the same ritual again.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by erlando

Now now. We have to remember that even though this doesn't happen anywhere else in the civilized world the USA is special and cannot be compared to anywhere else. These 19 school kids between 9 and 11 years old and their teachers are a necessary and acceptable sacrifice to uphold the sacred rights of a free people.

Thoughts and prayers, and then we move on like nothing happened.

See you back here next time where we'll go through the same ritual again.

The thread will be up and running, waiting for the next one.

And we probably won't have to wait all that long.

[The Great Zaganza]

A company or parent should take these shootings into account before deciding to move to Texas for tax reasons.

[Blue Mountain]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

At least 21 dead including 18 children, according to this tweet from a journalist.

https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/s...44198175657986

This is horrendous. It's worse than Dunblane.

ETA: The BBC is still on 14 children and a teacher, but I think they're just behind the curve.

To be utterly crass for a moment, the USA has 45 million kids under the age of 12. 21 of them no longer here doesn't make that much of a difference.

That many kids will die in automobile accidents over the next 5 days.

This is terrible! Just what the hell is it with US culture that even suggests killing a bunch of kids and a teacher or two is in any way an answer to any personal problems the gunman may have had?

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Cain

We need to invest in the safety of our children by hardening our schools. Security guards named Kevin. Ballistic blankets. Armed faculty. Don't teach children CRT; teach them MMA.

Yeah, but check out his Call of Duty stats.

[Meadmaker]

Here's a bit of interesting news:

"As he tried to enter the school, he was engaged by school district police officers, but was still able to enter the building and go into multiple classrooms, DPS Sgt. Erick Estrada said. Authorities say he was armed with a rifle and carrying a backpack."

So, the school apparently had police (plural) on premises. Armed? I would think so.

And yet, this dude killed 21 anyway.

Good guys with guns didn't prevent the murders. Well, one other good guy with a gun did stop the killing, so that's good. Hwoever, the point is that even if you have armed guards, the killer is acting with the element of surprise. The good guys couldn't stop him in time.

I suppose we'll learn a bit more soon about exactly what the school cops did, and why they weren't able to prevent the mass murder.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Why is it that an uncooperative Democratic Congress can't seem to stop a willful Republican President.

False equivalence. Biden cannot issue XO's regarding gun control measures. Those have to be passed by Congress.

Quote:

Which I do once every few months when he does jack **** about serious problems.

Thanks for proving my point.

Quote:

But go on, sling handfuls of **** all you like.

If you don't like it, stop providing it in the first place.

[Delphic Oracle]

Re: comparison stats of causes of death.

Most comparisons will make no mention of those deaths occurring despite numerous systems and processes in place to minimize the occurrences. More could be done, naturally, but whether a result of diminishing returns or just no further practical means available, more effort won't change it much.

That's far and away different than something we've done essentially nothing to stop.

[erlando]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Is America the only place that calls Elementary Schools 'targets'?

Yes. It speaks volumes.

[Skeptic Ginger]

No Lie Brian Tyler Cohen

Quote:

NEW: Furious NBA coach Steve Kerr just gave a MUST-SEE response to the Texas shooting, STORMED OFF.

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I AGREE

Quote:

Democrat Chris Murphy just gave the speech of the year amid the latest tragedy in Texas.

"What are we doing?"

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I AGREE

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by erlando

Now now. We have to remember that even though this doesn't happen anywhere else in the civilized world the USA is special and cannot be compared to anywhere else. These 19 school kids between 9 and 11 years old and their teachers are a necessary and acceptable sacrifice to uphold the sacred rights of a free people.

Thoughts and prayers, and then we move on like nothing happened.

See you back here next time where we'll go through the same ritual again.

Isn't that the truth!

[Skeptic Ginger]

James Corden's Message After the Texas School Shooting:

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I AGREE

He has young kids of his own and a perspective as a person from the UK.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No Lie Brian Tyler Cohen

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I AGREE

"What are we doing?"

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I AGREE

I had to wait for a basketball coach to provide a bit of catharsis in this troubled time.

Which, even with the slight lift, is really depressing.

ETA: Kerr's father was shot dead while serving as President of the American University of Beirut. I would say he has some moral authority on the subject of gun violence.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No Lie Brian Tyler Cohen

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I AGREE

"What are we doing?"

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I AGREE

Good for Steve Kerr and well said. His point about the 50 Senators is spot on. The majority of GOP senators refuse to support a bill expanding background checks. Delphic Oracle blamed Biden:

Quote:

Telling us "we" have to do something? WE ELECTED YOU TO LEAD MOTHER ******!

(post 144)

He has tried to lead but you can't lead those who don't want to be led:

Quote:

Senate Republicans said on Thursday they will force a vote to try to nix President Biden’s “ghost guns” rule, pushing a fight over gun laws onto the chamber’s agenda.

Republican Sen. Ted Cruz (Texas) said that he will introduce a resolution along with Sens. James Lankford (Okla.), Mike Braun (Ind.) and Mike Lee (Utah) to block the Justice Department regulation.

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3267...ost-guns-rule/

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Here's a bit of interesting news:

"As he tried to enter the school, he was engaged by school district police officers, but was still able to enter the building and go into multiple classrooms, DPS Sgt. Erick Estrada said. Authorities say he was armed with a rifle and carrying a backpack."

So, the school apparently had police (plural) on premises. Armed? I would think so.

And yet, this dude killed 21 anyway.

Good guys with guns didn't prevent the murders. Well, one other good guy with a gun did stop the killing, so that's good. Hwoever, the point is that even if you have armed guards, the killer is acting with the element of surprise. The good guys couldn't stop him in time.

That's right. And it goes to show why Texas AG Paxton and others who insist that the answer is more armed guards, police, and/or arming teachers are simply mistaken. The killer in this case was already engaged by multiple armed responders and was still able to enter the classroom(s) (some law enforcement quotes suggest more than one, unclear) and shoot at least 30 victims when the children sent to the hospital wounded but alive are included along with the dead.

And this isn't exactly a revelation. Conservatives were quick to make fun of the 2015 Charlie Hebdo shooting, insisting that the result (12 dead, 11 injured in one office) could easily have been reduced or even prevented altogether if France had more permissive gun laws and even one of the victims in the office been carrying a firearm for protection. One gun rights group attempted to prove this by staging an elaborate simulation of the known conditions of the attack (room layout, number of people, ambush by two gunmen) and arming one of the "victims" and the "terrorists" with paintball guns. They had to run the scenario several times because the lone "good guy with a gun" kept failing to take down both gunmen; in fact, they ran the scenario a total of nine times, and they were never able to take down both; in a couple of runs the armed victim couldn't take out even one. And this was a solidly pro-gun group that was highly motivated to prove the folly of gun control AND had the advantage of actually anticipating the ambush and reacting much more quickly that someone genuinely taken by surprise would have been able.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

James Corden's Message After the Texas School Shooting:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

He has young kids of his own and a perspective as a person from the UK.

We're a world leader, all right...in the number of school shootings. The NRA, the Ted Cruzes, the Mitch McConnells, the MTGs, the Lauren Boeberts, the Mike Lees of this country must be so proud.

MTG: 'We don't need more gun control. We need to return to God.'

Jackson Lahmeyer (GA-R Senate candidate) " It's time to arm the teachers and bring back prayer in our public schools."

Ted Cruz: "We know from past experience that the most effective tool for keeping kids safe is armed law enforcement on the campus."
"Inevitably, when there's a murder of this kind, you see politicians try to politicize it. You see Democrats and a lot of folks in the media whose immediate solution is to try to restrict the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens.That doesn't work."

Just shut the hell up.

[erlando]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

MTG: 'We don't need more gun control. We need to return to God.'

Oh **** you, you feckless ****.

[Lothian]

This is the price you pay for liberal gun laws. Stop pretending it is shocking or unusual. 27 school shoot ups so far this year. There will be more.

Given your reluctance to give up guns, the question is not how to stop.attacks, you won't. At best you will just move them.

The question is do you bother compensating parents for sacrificing their child as the consequence of allowing people to freely collect guns, light up a range or go shooting in the hills? A "dead child" levy on gun ownership or purchase may help gun owners understand what their 'rights' enable, but I doubt it.

[The Great Zaganza]

The true reason why Republicans will always oppose any gun laws is not the NRA (which is bankrupt in more than one way), or that they don't see the reason for it.
It's that they know exactly what would happen if they tried to become more sensible in terms to regulating access to guns: their supporters would shoot them.
Republicans fear the MAGA and Gun nutters, for good reason, and know that they and their family would not be save if they did anything that looks like gun regulation.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by shemp

Stop posting their ******* names and faces! They should undergo Damnatio memoriae.

Well said.

We know that sufficient numbers of spree killers want to "live in infamy"

[Lurch]

To those who might take offense over my missives and rants about American insanity leading to a hate-on... The numbing repetitiveness of vile events like this, the political and societal climate that fosters them, the squalid valuation of money and power over the lives of even children, and the obscene indifference in certain quarters sure does make it hard to like y'all as a group.

[Delphic Oracle]

On a theoretical Biden EO,

Congress, as currently assembled, likely couldn't block it. That leaves judicial review. Judicial review takes time. Presidents have ignored stays before this and will do so again. What's going to happen? Will Biden be arrested? We already know that doesn't happen.

ETA: I would bet my life that most of those in and around the apparatus of power would ultimately concede (though loudly) many issues we're currently paralyzed on to maintain the sacrosanctity of the Presidency. And it would be a brilliant stroke of using the corrupt, patronage seeking nature of the system against itself.

This precise issue is about guns and innocent children, yes. But it takes place in the context of a power struggle. When your opponent is operating along the doctrine of "we intend to accumulate power to ourselves and deny it to others" and are making great strides at repeatedly demonstrating that even with technical statutory authority, you are ineffective and weak, then it is time to stop "playing by the rules." The way to dissuade an opponent from engaging in a naked power struggle is to meet them on those terms. Make their attempts to do so have real consequences. Watching them accumulate it all while showing everyone which section and clause prevents us from action suits them just fine.

The "flipping the chess board over" analogy is a popular one. I no longer find it accurate. Our opponents are blatantly cheating and smirking across the board at us while we continue to play "correctly." It isn't at all unexpected that some significant portion of the patrons watching (who, for the sake of this analogy actually have many of their needs, if not their very lives riding on the outcome, the players not so much) might grow resentful at the player they are depending on as the game drags on and there we are, just losing the game. Repeatedly pointing out how unfair it is doesnt impress anyone with skin in the game. In that context, flipping the board over and punching the ass in the face is not the egregious act it might otherwise be.

Emergency powers are rather broad.

We've been under state of emergency with respect to Iran for my entire 43 years on this Earth.

We're under something like 30 states of emergency right this minute. Somehow, despite the numerous suspensions of various swathes of codes and statutes, the foundations of our institutions haven't sunk into the abyss.

I think there's a rather plain case for "compelling government interest" at this point. Certainly we could have a robust debate about "least restrictive means." Maybe we'll have to give some guns back.

What "honor" is there in upholding institutional virtues that allow this carnage? Why are we still staring at the board trying to figure out where to move our queen if they get to take her out with any piece they choose from any square they choose because they say so?

I bristle at the "omg the militant/fringe/radical left" stuff that floats around, of course. I'm plenty aware of the kookery, though, after a long exhaustive march through 19th century enlightenment and the formations of modern (small "r") republican nation-state politics. But I'm no more impressed either by comfortable liberal moderates more beholden to esoteric principles and "orderliness" than real, immediate suffering. And I say that as someone with a neurotic preference for routines and task-orientation, if not downright undiagnosed ASD.

This country has long been hewn towards human and civil rights taking a back seat to property and status. Guns are property. Property values and investments might take a dive if "unrest" occurs. It is absolutely true that many, far too many, of us will put children on the altar of stability and peace (or at least peaceful enclaves "where I can afford to live, but thats because I've earned it").

It's the same argument King made about those who would espouse support for civil rights, but then be so very "concerned" that it was all done "properly" and not cause disruptions or inconvenience to them.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The true reason why Republicans will always oppose any gun laws is not the NRA (which is bankrupt in more than one way), or that they don't see the reason for it.
It's that they know exactly what would happen if they tried to become more sensible in terms to regulating access to guns: their supporters would shoot them.
Republicans fear the MAGA and Gun nutters, for good reason, and know that they and their family would not be save if they did anything that looks like gun regulation.

From the viewpoint of the gun nutters, their elected reps enacting restrictions would be seen as the very tyranny the 2A was conceived of to stamp out. Quite the self reinforcing feedback loop. Gotta have more guns to make sure the gubmint can't take away our guns. Appeasing the nutters only results in becoming a hostage to their nuttery.

We have occurring here something like thermal runaway, whereby current and the resulting heat causes a decrease in resistance, leading to higher current and heat, further reduction of resistance, and so on until meltdown or a bang.

The approaching meltdown here is the increasing gun violence, after the infusion of more and more guns into society and the decreasing resistance relative to violence to do anything about it.

[catsmate]

Up here we sacrifice our children
To feed the worn-out dreams of yesterday

[The Don]

Sorry to report that the US is as powerless to do anything about the damage guns do as the UK is to tackle the damage alcohol does IMO.

In both cases the "problem" is deeply intertwined with culture and how each country looks at itself.

In both cases there are large, powerful, well funded industry lobby groups to oppose any measures to control the "problem"

In both cases "responsible" people are trotted out as the reason why a few irresponsible people shouldn't be allowed to ruin everyone else's fun

In both cases, due to inaction, thousands of people die and tens of thousands are injured unnecessarily

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

On a theoretical Biden EO,

Congress, as currently assembled, likely couldn't block it. That leaves judicial review. Judicial review takes time. Presidents have ignored stays before this and will do so again. What's going to happen? Will Biden be arrested? We already know that doesn't happen.

ETA: I would bet my life that most of those in and around the apparatus of power would ultimately concede (though loudly) many issues we're currently paralyzed on to maintain the sacrosanctity of the Presidency. And it would be a brilliant stroke of using the corrupt, patronage seeking nature of the system against itself.

This precise issue is about guns and innocent children, yes. But it takes place in the context of a power struggle. When your opponent is operating along the doctrine of "we intend to accumulate power to ourselves and deny it to others" and are making great strides at repeatedly demonstrating that even with technical statutory authority, you are ineffective and weak, then it is time to stop "playing by the rules." The way to dissuade an opponent from engaging in a naked power struggle is to meet them on those terms. Make their attempts to do so have real consequences. Watching them accumulate it all while showing everyone which section and clause prevents us from action suits them just fine.

The "flipping the chess board over" analogy is a popular one. I no longer find it accurate. Our opponents are blatantly cheating and smirking across the board at us while we continue to play "correctly." It isn't at all unexpected that some significant portion of the patrons watching (who, for the sake of this analogy actually have many of their needs, if not their very lives riding on the outcome, the players not so much) might grow resentful at the player they are depending on as the game drags on and there we are, just losing the game. Repeatedly pointing out how unfair it is doesnt impress anyone with skin in the game. In that context, flipping the board over and punching the ass in the face is not the egregious act it might otherwise be.

Emergency powers are rather broad.

We've been under state of emergency with respect to Iran for my entire 43 years on this Earth.

We're under something like 30 states of emergency right this minute. Somehow, despite the numerous suspensions of various swathes of codes and statutes, the foundations of our institutions haven't sunk into the abyss.

I think there's a rather plain case for "compelling government interest" at this point. Certainly we could have a robust debate about "least restrictive means." Maybe we'll have to give some guns back.

What "honor" is there in upholding institutional virtues that allow this carnage? Why are we still staring at the board trying to figure out where to move our queen if they get to take her out with any piece they choose from any square they choose because they say so?

I bristle at the "omg the militant/fringe/radical left" stuff that floats around, of course. I'm plenty aware of the kookery, though, after a long exhaustive march through 19th century enlightenment and the formations of modern (small "r") republican nation-state politics. But I'm no more impressed either by comfortable liberal moderates more beholden to esoteric principles and "orderliness" than real, immediate suffering. And I say that as someone with a neurotic preference for routines and task-orientation, if not downright undiagnosed ASD.

This country has long been hewn towards human and civil rights taking a back seat to property and status. Guns are property. Property values and investments might take a dive if "unrest" occurs. It is absolutely true that many, far too many, of us will put children on the altar of stability and peace (or at least peaceful enclaves "where I can afford to live, but thats because I've earned it").

It's the same argument King made about those who would espouse support for civil rights, but then be so very "concerned" that it was all done "properly" and not cause disruptions or inconvenience to them.

Near-immediate fail!

The gun lobby will immediately pull the stings of their puppets in the GOP who will apply for a stay of the EO to SCOTUS (any state Government can go direct to SCOTUS under the "Original jurisdiction" path) and SCOTUS (now a 6-3 right wing court) will stay the EO.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Lurch

To those who might take offense over my missives and rants about American insanity leading to a hate-on... The numbing repetitiveness of vile events like this, the political and societal climate that fosters them, the squalid valuation of money and power over the lives of even children, and the obscene indifference in certain quarters sure does make it hard to like y'all as a group.

Hell, I don't even like us much.

[wobs]

Originally Posted by The Don

Sorry to report that the US is as powerless to do anything about the damage guns do as the UK is to tackle the damage alcohol does IMO.

In both cases the "problem" is deeply intertwined with culture and how each country looks at itself.

In both cases there are large, powerful, well funded industry lobby groups to oppose any measures to control the "problem"

In both cases "responsible" people are trotted out as the reason why a few irresponsible people shouldn't be allowed to ruin everyone else's fun

In both cases, due to inaction, thousands of people die and tens of thousands are injured unnecessarily

US and UK are pretty close on alcohol related deaths per head.
15.3 in US in 2018
11.9 in UK in 2018
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db383.htm
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...edkingdom/2018

Also, alcohol is not designed to kill, whereas an assault rifle is.

Anecdotally, there does seem to be less binge drinking than there used to be in the UK, as kids seem to spend more time online, and mor epubs move over to serving food. There does seem to be a gradual cultural change in the UK with alcohol.

Meanwhile, in a class in a Texas school, guns are still a problem.

[Stacyhs]

Anyone who thinks Biden hasn't tried gun related XOs doesn't know what he's talking about. What he's done through the last year and what the results have been is discussed in the following article:

Quote:

Biden’s executive actions tackle a small part of America’s enormous gun problem
Biden announced six executive actions meant to curb gun violence in America.

Quote:

Biden’s actions are significant but address only a very small part of America’s enormous gun problem. Instead, they represent an effort by the White House to use the limited tools the president has, given the difficulties in passing new gun legislation through Congress, to make some progress toward reform.

Quote:

There are currently bills that would close this loophole that have passed the House of Representatives and are waiting for a vote in the Senate. There seems little chance of them passing, given Democrats — who broadly support gun reform — don’t have the numbers necessary to do so.

Quote:

As the country, largely united in its support for gun legislation, waits for a stagnant Congress to pass meaningful reforms, Biden has now acted unilaterally — his reforms aren’t broad, but they are what is within his power to do.

Quote:

Here’s what Biden implemented Thursday (as of April 2021):

Stopping the sale of “ghost guns:”
New regulations on pistol-stabilizing braces
New regulations on pistol-stabilizing braces
Federal studies on gun trafficking: For the first time in 20 years, the ATF and the Justice Department will be charged with issuing annual reports on gun trafficking.
Investments in community violence intervention programs

Biden also announced the nomination of David Chipman to lead the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Chipman, a gun control advocate, was unanimously opposed by all GOP senators so Biden was forced to withdraw his nomination.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by wobs

Anecdotally, there does seem to be less binge drinking than there used to be in the UK, as kids seem to spend more time online, and mor epubs move over to serving food. There does seem to be a gradual cultural change in the UK with alcohol.

Yes, you're quite right, young people these days seem to drink a lot less than in my day.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No Lie Brian Tyler Cohen

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I AGREE

"What are we doing?"

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How will you persuade people with words when dead children don't make a difference?

I've said it before, in the USA, people are happy with the regular sacrifice of children to keep their guns

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

How will you persuade people with words when dead children don't make a difference?

I've said it before, in the USA, people are happy with the regular sacrifice of children to keep their guns

Remember, it's the 75% of the US population who support gun control who are the real villains and the real threat to public safety.

[Matthew Best]

"A parable:

A village has been built in the deepest gully of a floodplain.

At regular intervals, flash floods wipe away houses, killing all inside. Less dramatic—but more lethal—is the steady toll as individual villagers slip and drown in the marshes around them.

After especially deadly events, the villagers solemnly discuss what they might do to protect themselves. Perhaps they might raise their homes on stilts? But a powerful faction among the villagers is always at hand to explain why these ideas won’t work. “No law can keep our village safe! The answer is that our people must learn to be better swimmers - and oh by the way, you said ‘stilts’ when the proper term is ‘piles,’ so why should anybody listen to you?”

So the argument rages, without result, year after year, decade after decade, fatalities mounting all the while. Nearby villages, built in the hills, marvel that the gully-dwellers persist in their seemingly reckless way of life. But the gully-dwellers counter that they are following the wishes of their Founders, whose decisions two centuries ago must always be upheld by their descendants."

David Frum, 2017