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Old 29th September 2022, 10:49 AM   #161
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I have no evidence* of trans people being murdered simply on account of their being trans, other than the cases in Brazil where prostitutes have been murdered by angry clients who discovered that the "woman" they thought they were with was actually a man.
So, concurrently with admitting you have no evidence, you make exactly the same claim again.

Brilliant!

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Happy now? You're asking me to prove a negative, you realise?
No, I'm not happy, because you repeated the same idiotic claim, and the idea that I'm asking you to prove a negative is absurd. You're making a positive claim, and just made it again.

Here's your original claim:

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But one can definitely see the scenario. Punter goes with alluring prostitute, look at these long legs, these slim hips, what a stunner. Realises at some point this is a man. Punter is a homophobe who is outraged that he has been tricked into homosexual sex. Punter pulls a knife...

Could happen anywhere, but it seems to be Brazil it happens in.
You're pulling this stuff out of your nether regions, and it really pisses me off.

Posting false claims only arms the extreme element.
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Old 29th September 2022, 10:57 AM   #162
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You seem to believe that there are a significant number of murders of trans people where the motive is animosity towards the victim on account of them being trans. In that case it should be easy to find reports of quite a few, no? Articles referencing specific cases and so on?

Your move.
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Old 29th September 2022, 02:15 PM   #163
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Interesting story today.

Quote:
The Justice Department on Thursday accused an Army doctor and a Johns Hopkins anesthesiologist of conspiring to provide the Russian government with medical information about U.S. soldiers and their relatives.

The indictment names Jamie Lee Henry, an Army major at Fort Bragg who had a secret security clearance, and Henry’s spouse, Anna Gabrielian, a Russian-speaker who is affiliated with Johns Hopkins, according to a Hopkins webpage.
They are supportive of Russia's, um, special military operation so wanted to help them out by providing info that could be used for kompromat.

Nothing all that special about this news except for an unusual detail. Henry is trans and was the first trans active military officer to go public back in 2015.

At the time Henry was going through a divorce and under considerable stress so must have been a tough time. Unclear when Anna, her current spouse, came into the picture. Dinner parties must have been interesting.

indictment of the couple:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ia/ar-AA12p6dK

2015 buzzfeed piece on coming out trans:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...officer-my-sto
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Old 29th September 2022, 03:09 PM   #164
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I for one am totally okay with revoking trans accommodation for traitors. Unless some clearly demonstrated medical necessity requires otherwise.

ETA: From the Buzzfeed article:
Henry says her story — and the story of many other trans people currently serving — proves that being out and trans is compatible with military service. What’s more, Henry says that being trans has made her a better service member and better doctor.
Him linking his trans identity to his value as a soldier isn't really aging all that well, in my opinion.
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Old 29th September 2022, 04:53 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You seem to believe that there are a significant number of murders of trans people where the motive is animosity towards the victim on account of them being trans.
Nonsense.

I'm asking you to provide evidence for a claim you've made at least three times.

I note another attempt to deflect from yourself by suggesting I'm making a statement about murders, which I clearly am not.

I find it highly amusing to have posters in two consecutive subscribed threads playing identical tactics to avoid a simple admission they made something up.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Your move.
Nope. I'm not playing your strawman, I'm waiting for you to admit you posted something that can't be supported by evidence because you thought it would back your position, when in the real world, it's doing the exact opposite.
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:09 PM   #166
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Quote:
...the very few cases where someone has actually been murdered because they are trans are nearly all transwomen who were murdered by an enraged sexual partner who was outraged at having been tricked into what he saw as homosexual sex. Mostly in Brazil and involving transwomen working as prostitutes, but it could happen anywhere.

This was what I posted that you disagreed with. I said that there were a few trans people who had been murdered because they were trans, in one particular situation, but that apart from that situation practically nobody has been murdered simply because they were trans, that is with the motive of transphobia.

If you disagree, I presume you know about a lot of murders of trans people (in other circumstances) where the motive was determined to be or can reasonably be assumed to be transphobia.

I don't know where I'm supposed to find proof that murders haven't happened.
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:42 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This was what I posted that you disagreed with. I said that there were a few trans people who had been murdered because they were trans, in one particular situation, but that apart from that situation practically nobody has been murdered simply because they were trans, that is with the motive of transphobia.
Still failing.

I have made it extremely specific that I'm asking you to defend the idea that murders of of trans women have happened because they were prostituting themselves as female and got murdered by blokes upset at finding out they had a dick.

Here are your posts on the subject:

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
...the very few cases where someone has actually been murdered because they are trans are nearly all transwomen who were murdered by an enraged sexual partner who was outraged at having been tricked into what he saw as homosexual sex. Mostly in Brazil and involving transwomen working as prostitutes, but it could happen anywhere.
That's one.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But one can definitely see the scenario. Punter goes with alluring prostitute, look at these long legs, these slim hips, what a stunner. Realises at some point this is a man. Punter is a homophobe who is outraged that he has been tricked into homosexual sex. Punter pulls a knife...

Could happen anywhere, but it seems to be Brazil it happens in.
Two.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I have no evidence* of trans people being murdered simply on account of their being trans, other than the cases in Brazil where prostitutes have been murdered by angry clients who discovered that the "woman" they thought they were with was actually a man.
bolding mine

And three.

Please do keep defending your absurd, unsupported statements.
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Old 30th September 2022, 04:21 AM   #168
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I think these bolded statements are already amply evidenced.

I am struggling to understand what it is you don't believe.

Do you believe nobody is ever murdered simply because they are trans, by an assailant who hates or is disgusted by trans people? You might not be far out, but the evidence from South America suggests it happens sometimes.

Do you believe there are numerous such murders in the rest of the world? An epidemic, even? Do you have any evidence for this?
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Old 30th September 2022, 05:52 AM   #169
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I'd say the claim that "the very few cases where someone has actually been murdered because they are trans are nearly all transwomen who were murdered by an enraged sexual partner who was outraged at having been tricked into what he saw as homosexual sex" is not well evidenced, since we don't know the motivation behind most of these murders. Many times when we do know the motivation, it reads just like any other narrative of male violence against women.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:05 AM   #170
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That is a fair point. The motivation is probably anecdotal, although it's a point made fairly frequently.

I do not know what point The Atheist is trying to make. What we do know is
  1. Murders of trans people are rare, certainly overall no commoner pro rata than murders of non-trans people, and probably rarer
  2. Central and South America (mainly Brazil) is the location for a very high proportion of these murders, and the victims there are mainly involved in the sex trade, and once these are subtracted there are very few trans murders in the rest of the world
  3. The motives for the murders of trans people do not in general seem to involve transphobia.
Maybe The Atheist will explain what about this is making him so angry,
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:15 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
By this process, the number of people being murdered for being trans may be going up, even though it is still very low and even though trans people are still underrepresented as a population.
That's conceivable, but we still haven't established that the murder rate for being trans is going up.

I suspect that the murder rate for trans people is going to go down as the number of trans people goes up, but not because of any greater acceptance of trans people. I think the number of trans people murdered for being trans, rather than for other reasons, is vanishingly small and statistically irrelevant. It's also hard to establish with any confidence, because perpetrators have a motive to lie, and we don't always know in which direction. They might deny an anti-trans motive to avoid a hate crime judgment, but then, like Mathew Shephard's murderer claiming "gay panic" (it wasn't), they might lie that it was motivated by trans identity to cover up a different real motive. Motives are hard to measure accurately.

What I think is going to happen is that a lot of this increase in trans identity is artificial. It's people indoctrinated into that identity (rapid onset, etc). But that's not a universal phenomenon, that's a upper and upper middle class luxury. It's not poor girls in the ghetto who are confused about whether or not they're really girls, it's affluent kids with liberal parents in coastal suburbs. So I think we're going to get a shift in the socioeconomic class of trans people towards the higher end. And that's going to cause a drop in the crime victimization rate, because socioeconomic status is highly correlated with crime victimization.

That's my prediction, anyways.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:18 AM   #172
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Here are the statistics from a site which seems dedicated to talking up transphobia as a motivation for this "epidemic" of trans murders. I don't think the figures back up their assertions.

https://transrespect.org/en/tmm-update-tdor-2021/
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:28 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's conceivable, but we still haven't established that the murder rate for being trans is going up.

I suspect that the murder rate for trans people is going to go down as the number of trans people goes up, but not because of any greater acceptance of trans people. I think the number of trans people murdered for being trans, rather than for other reasons, is vanishingly small and statistically irrelevant. It's also hard to establish with any confidence, because perpetrators have a motive to lie, and we don't always know in which direction. They might deny an anti-trans motive to avoid a hate crime judgment, but then, like Mathew Shephard's murderer claiming "gay panic" (it wasn't), they might lie that it was motivated by trans identity to cover up a different real motive. Motives are hard to measure accurately.

What I think is going to happen is that a lot of this increase in trans identity is artificial. It's people indoctrinated into that identity (rapid onset, etc). But that's not a universal phenomenon, that's a upper and upper middle class luxury. It's not poor girls in the ghetto who are confused about whether or not they're really girls, it's affluent kids with liberal parents in coastal suburbs. So I think we're going to get a shift in the socioeconomic class of trans people towards the higher end. And that's going to cause a drop in the crime victimization rate, because socioeconomic status is highly correlated with crime victimization.

That's my prediction, anyways.
When you put it that way... I figure we're only two to three years away, at most, from a mainstream media opinion piece with a headline to the effect of "the gentrification of trans-identity".
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:31 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you put it that way... I figure we're only two to three years away, at most, from a mainstream media opinion piece with a headline to the effect of "the gentrification of trans-identity".
Titania McGrath had a whole thread on all her predictions that came true, this would probably fit right in.
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Old 30th September 2022, 08:27 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd say the claim that "the very few cases where someone has actually been murdered because they are trans are nearly all transwomen who were murdered by an enraged sexual partner who was outraged at having been tricked into what he saw as homosexual sex" is not well evidenced, since we don't know the motivation behind most of these murders. Many times when we do know the motivation, it reads just like any other narrative of male violence against women.
I tried to google for any examples of this, and while I did find at least one example of a trans woman being murdered "for being trans" and no other apparent reason (a very horrific one, committed by teenagers), I didn't see any that fit that scenario precisely. I.e., "murdered by an enraged sexual partner who was outraged at having been tricked into what he saw as homosexual sex". I'm guessing that one comes more from Hollywood than real life. Sounds very plausible, but hard to find any actual documented examples.
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Old 30th September 2022, 09:03 AM   #176
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I will withdraw that scenario, because I think you're right, it's speculation based on the fact that so many of the (admittedly tiny number of) trans people who are murdered are transwomen in the sex trade.

I also know about one very horrific murder that seems to have been motivated by transphobia. I've been unable to find any more. There is no evidence of the epidemic of transphobic murders we're regularly being asked to be sad about.

I found this article that does a deeper dive into the statistics.

The truth about trans murders

It highlights the small overall numbers, the predominance of black transwomen engaged in the sex trade among the victims, and the difficulty of ascribing any of the deaths to transphobia.

Quote:
Three of the nine victims were murdered by a violent punter while working as prostitutes; another was killed by their husband, who lived on her earnings from prostitution. Another of the victims died at the hands of someone who was also trans-identifying. Another was a gay man who cross-dressed occasionally, and the motive for the murder has been ascribed to both transphobia and homophobia. Two of the murders were linked to drug use.

In other words, despite the way their deaths are often framed in the media and by activists, the large majority of these trans victims were not killed simply for being trans. Almost half appear to involve prostitution — a fact that has been quietly brushed under the carpet.

These nine victims were all the trans homicide victims in the UK since 2008. (Two more originally included in the list were in fact not homicides.) This compares to 12 homicides committed by trans-identifying people in the same period.

I did read another article that had better statistics some little time ago, but I can't remember where it was published.
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Old 30th September 2022, 09:05 AM   #177
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I don't know if it's significant, but the only cases that came up at all were of transwomen victims. The trans perpetrators of homicides were all also transwomen. Transmen didn't seem either to kill or be killed.
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Old 30th September 2022, 09:37 AM   #178
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My provisional hypothesis whenever teenagers do something horrific that also happens to violate some recently-emphasized taboo, it's because they're trying to do the most transgressive thing they can think of, not because they actually harbor any particular hate towards the thing itself.

Kids say "******" in FPS lobbies not because they're racist, but because they know it offends.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:43 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I will withdraw that scenario, because I think you're right, it's speculation based on the fact that so many of the (admittedly tiny number of) trans people who are murdered are transwomen in the sex trade.
One of the examples in d4m10n's link fit that scenario (search for Santa Rosa if you want to find it). But yeah, hard to really identify a trend from that.
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Old 1st October 2022, 06:19 AM   #180
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Getting back closer to the original subject of the thread, this Tiktok video has been shared on Twitter. Warning, loud intrusive music. Oh yes, and sensitive content, although a lot of naughty bits have been pixillated out.

https://twitter.com/ImjustGennyXX/st...75380882169856

It goes past pretty quick. It has to, there are so many examples. It's worth pausing the video and reading the text though.

Are these men women? As one of them says in the video, "Well I'm not a male... So you're not letting males into your spaces when you let trans people in, you're letting women in." That's the law (in some places, in other places it's what the trans activists are campaigning for).

As another says, "Literally 100% of trans people could be convicted rapists and it still doesn't justify excluding us from the proper restroom."

Yes, not all transwomen and all that. We know. But a hell of a lot of them. Who actually matters here? Does it justify subjecting women to that lot in order to pander to the feelings of men who wish they were women?

I'll turn round the quote at the beginning.

Men who ID as women: I don't feel comfortable sharing changing rooms with random men.

Legislators: We respect and value you, please have the women's changing rooms.

Women: I don't feel comfortable sharing changing rooms with random men.

Legislators: YOU'RE A BIGOT AND A RACIST.
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Old 1st October 2022, 06:45 AM   #181
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And right on cue, here is Bristol City Council, currently consulting on opening all its sex-segregated spaces to anyone who feels like using them.

https://twitter.com/N_LouiseS/status/1575893111644880896

Quote:
In developing our current policy approach we also considered an option of not recommending free selection of facilities (because of early engagement feedback which expressed concerns about women and girls potentially feeling less safe). We have discounted this option on the basis that although some people may feel less comfortable because they don’t accept transgender identity or think that trans people pose an increased safeguarding risk to others, this is not itself a legitimate or proportionate reason to exclude trans and gender-diverse people from using preferred facilities.

They are essentially saying, don't bother telling us that women will feel (and be) less safe, and their modesty and comfort will be compromised, we already decided to dismiss that argument. So basically women's fears and discomfort count for zero and the desires of men for everything.

Note the "because they don't accept transgender identity or think that transgender people pose an increased safeguarding risk to others" justification. They've got the "you bigoted transphobe" retaliation in first. Women pointing out that experience elsewhere demonstrates that women will be less safe, and that a huge part of their concern is that perverts, paedophiles, voyeurs, exhibitionists and rapists will simply self-ID as trans to gain unfettered access to women's spaces, will be dismissed on the same grounds.
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Old 1st October 2022, 07:24 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And right on cue, here is Bristol City Council, currently consulting on opening all its sex-segregated spaces to anyone who feels like using them.

https://twitter.com/N_LouiseS/status/1575893111644880896




They are essentially saying, don't bother telling us that women will feel (and be) less safe, and their modesty and comfort will be compromised, we already decided to dismiss that argument. So basically women's fears and discomfort count for zero and the desires of men for everything.

Note the "because they don't accept transgender identity or think that transgender people pose an increased safeguarding risk to others" justification. They've got the "you bigoted transphobe" retaliation in first. Women pointing out that experience elsewhere demonstrates that women will be less safe, and that a huge part of their concern is that perverts, paedophiles, voyeurs, exhibitionists and rapists will simply self-ID as trans to gain unfettered access to women's spaces, will be dismissed on the same grounds.
I think they are rather confused about the equality act and are trying to make a legal case "this is not itself a legitimate or proportionate reason" as those are the terms used in judgments about the equality act. Legally separate changing rooms - even "none nude" ones are allowed under the "legitimate and proportionate" provisos of the equality act. They are on a hiding to nothing if they go with some form of "self identified" gender claim for which changing rooms someone is allowed to use and it is legally challenged. One would hope they get good legal advice and avoid that.

The grey area in Britain is how to deal with those that have got a GRC and therefore legally have changed their gender, there doesn't seem to have been relevant precedent setting cases yet to make a call on that. The equality act certainly does allow for "segregation" on sex grounds even for those that have gone through the process to gain a GRC.

(Segregation in quotation marks as I'm using it to mean more than just physical separation - to include the likes of provision of services and so on.)
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Old 1st October 2022, 07:30 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And right on cue, here is Bristol City Council, currently consulting on opening all its sex-segregated spaces to anyone who feels like using them.

https://twitter.com/N_LouiseS/status/1575893111644880896




They are essentially saying, don't bother telling us that women will feel (and be) less safe, and their modesty and comfort will be compromised, we already decided to dismiss that argument. So basically women's fears and discomfort count for zero and the desires of men for everything.

Note the "because they don't accept transgender identity or think that transgender people pose an increased safeguarding risk to others" justification. They've got the "you bigoted transphobe" retaliation in first. Women pointing out that experience elsewhere demonstrates that women will be less safe, and that a huge part of their concern is that perverts, paedophiles, voyeurs, exhibitionists and rapists will simply self-ID as trans to gain unfettered access to women's spaces, will be dismissed on the same grounds.
Whatever you do, don’t give up on this. If there were a thousand or a hundred thousand Rolfes and Emily’s Cats, authorities may stop caving in to TRAs. Even those in “enlightened, progressive jurisdictions”.
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Old 1st October 2022, 07:43 AM   #184
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There are a lot of women here who are far more vocal than I am about it. I'm going to a protest at Holyrood on Thursday, but the women who organise this, who speak at the meetings, who whip the rest of us up to show up and who run the fact-gathering organisations and publish their findings (everything from Murray Blackburn Mackenzie to the Scottish Witches, taking in For Women Scotland and Women and Girls Scotland to name but a few) are the ones who deserve the praise.

Bristol are certainly in breach of the EA if they go ahead with this, but they have undoubtedly been paying Stonewall (handsomely) to advise them and think this is the way to proceed.

Requiring a GRC has the obvious problem of, at what point do we ask the guy with the beard and the bad wig and the miniskirt who is feeling up his crotch in the Ladies' room if he has one, and will he produce it please? Indeed, the proposed Scottish legislation, while paving the way for anyone to get a GRC by filling in a simple form, also intends to prohibit anyone from asking if someone has a GRC or asking to see it.

And of course if a GRC were to be required, but these are available by simply filling in a form, then we're back to square one because everyone who wants to go into the Ladies will simply get one.

Nevertheless, as you say, it is legal under the EA to exclude all biological males if this is a legitimate and proportionate act, whether or not they have a GRC, and intimate spaces are certainly viewed as legitimate and proportionate in the Act.

Bristol have simply been captured by the Stonewall operation. It's not that hard to influence a city council. Most of them are not that bright.
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:00 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think they are rather confused about the equality act and are trying to make a legal case "this is not itself a legitimate or proportionate reason" as those are the terms used in judgments about the equality act. Legally separate changing rooms - even "none nude" ones are allowed under the "legitimate and proportionate" provisos of the equality act. They are on a hiding to nothing if they go with some form of "self identified" gender claim for which changing rooms someone is allowed to use and it is legally challenged. One would hope they get good legal advice and avoid that.

The grey area in Britain is how to deal with those that have got a GRC and therefore legally have changed their gender, there doesn't seem to have been relevant precedent setting cases yet to make a call on that. The equality act certainly does allow for "segregation" on sex grounds even for those that have gone through the process to gain a GRC.

(Segregation in quotation marks as I'm using it to mean more than just physical separation - to include the likes of provision of services and so on.)
But the reasons they give are nonsense. If 'they don't accept transgender identity or think that transgender people pose an increased safeguarding risk to others' were the actual reasons for objections, they would be correct: these would not be legitimate or proportionate reasons. The legitimate goal is to exclude males from female spaces, and the proportionate means (usually) is to have safeguarding by allowing objection to the presence of males in female spaces.
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:09 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
But the reasons they give are nonsense. If 'they don't accept transgender identity or think that transgender people pose an increased safeguarding risk to others' were the actual reasons for objections, they would be correct: these would not be legitimate or proportionate reasons. The legitimate goal is to exclude males from female spaces, and the proportionate means (usually) is to have safeguarding by allowing objection to the presence of males in female spaces.
You don't even need to go as far as "safeguarding" as a reason to exclude males from a female only space, if you can argue that it would discourage women from using a service the council provides that can be a legitimate reason to do so. So for example, a LA run swimming baths, a convincing argument that would carry legal weight would be that it would discourage some women from using such facilities if they had to share "open plan" changing areas with males.
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:22 AM   #187
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I watched an interesting video last night. It was part 2 of the Swedish "Trans Train" series, which I had not been able to find earlier with subtitles (it's from 2019, before these programmes had the effect they eventually had on the legislators). It was largely focussing on the false claims being relied on by the politicians bringing in new legislation to allow children to have genital surgery from the age of 15 without their parents' consent. One of the claims was that 40% of trans-identifying youth have attempted suicide while waiting for "gender affirming care". It became clear that trans activists had simply told the politicians this and been believed. There was no evidence at all for such a thing. Clinician after clinician expressed reservations and doubts about what was being done.

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I AGREE

There was a fair bit about regret in the programme, featuring a girl who had been so sure she wanted to become a man (she had a history of anorexia and self-harm, which should have been a huge red flag to anyone), but because of the delay in getting treatment at the Karolinska she went to see a normal psychiatrist, who showed her perspectives she hadn't considered before and got her thinking. Then she was finally given an appointment with the adult clinic, as she had reached 18. At the first consultation pretty much the first thing she was asked was, "when do you want to start testosterone?"

This shocked her, because she had been having some doubts and was relying on the gender specialists at the Karolinska to diagnose whether she really was trans or not. She ran. She's not out of the woods but she's in a much better place. If she'd been "treated" at the gender clinic as a minor she'd be a prime candidate for regret and detransition.

Constantly throughout the film the people who were making the authoritative statements about suicide risk and so on were shown backtracking as the journalists confronted them with the lack of evidence for their claims. One notable point was the Karolinska youth gender clinic stating that only 40% (I think it was) of the children referred to them were put through transition. "Look! We don't just rubber-stamp it! We're selective and professional!" Except when the journalist asked what happened to the other 60% it turned out they had all turned 18 and been referred on to the adult service. "Well, lots of people are referred to us at 17 so obviously when they turn 18 they go into the adult service." There was no evidence at all that any child was told, you're not a suitable candidate, you should not transition.

But the most striking thing was the story of a transwoman called Alexa. He is an HSTS transsexual who had felt uncomfortable as an effeminate gay boy all his life, discovered that transition was possible when he was 18, and went for it. This was all 20 years or more ago, and his story was included to contrast the amount of care and caution that was exercised before transitioning someone back then, to the rubber-stamp now. Alexa presents as a fairly convincing woman, as many HSTS transwomen do, and the heavy neck, the Adam's apple and the low voice don't detract from it too much. His face is boyish rather than mannish. Alexa is the sort of transwoman that very few women indeed would have a problem with in female-only spaces. If he didn't speak, most probably wouldn't notice. Alexa would seem to have it made.

The other shoe dropped after the show, and the journalists made an extra 15-minute programme on that alone. Taking part in the show had led Alexa to articulate what he'd been feeling for some time. That back in the 1990s he had put himself in the hands of the gender specialists, believing it was all very scientific and they knew what they were doing and if they agreed that he should transition then that was obviously the right thing to do. But it had gradually dawned on him that he was part of an experiment nobody knew the outcome of. He had been told that taking cross-sex hormones could shorten his life by a few years, but when he was shown the statistics on heart disease, cancer and stroke in males who had been on these hormones for ten years, he was shocked. (I wonder if they're telling the people they're transitioning now exactly what these risks are?)

Alexa, who had in effect been the poster child for Sweden's trans policies, came out (in a Facebook group or something) saying that he was having a lot of regret about what he'd lost. He'd changed his body and couldn't go back, and he'd lost the life he could have had, the life of an effeminate gay man, and significantly increased his risk of serious disease.

He was immediately thrown out of the group and shunned and bad-mouthed by the trans community he had previously been at the centre of. No sympathy, no understanding, no support, no love.

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While I was looking for that second link I also found this documentary from the Netherlands about another man with huge regrets.

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I haven't watched that yet, but it looks as if he actually detransitioned, which Alexa doesn't seem to be considering.

We see a lot about the ROGD girls who are rushed into this and regret it, with their deep voices, mastectomies, male pattern baldness and beard growth. It's tragic to hear young women lamenting that they're now unable to feed a baby - if they can even have one, some have had hysterectomies and even ovariectomies, plunging them into something worse than the menopause* in their teens or early 20s. We see less about the boys and men who have similar feelings.

Nobody know the incidence of regret and detransition after these procedures. Many detransitioners say they will not go back to the clinics that transitioned them, so they are simply lost to follow-up. Nobody has been collecting statistics or doing any follow-up at all beyond the immediate post-up period (when euphoria is a well-documented phase). It seems to be impossible to tell, pre-op, which patients will end up happy with their decision and which will regret it, but nobody is even trying to make the distinction. It's all affirm - affirm - affirm, and clinicians who try to counsel patients to take a step back and think about it are being monstered and dismissed for "practising conversion therapy".

I think there is a huge whirlwind being sown here.

*Worse than the menopause? Certainly when puberty blockers are used. In a normal menopause oestrogen and progesterone hit the floor, but FSH and LH are sky-high. These hormones can have a positive effect on mood and in fact promote sexual desire. Many women report feeling horny as hell during the menopause and for some time afterwards. But puberty blockers act centrally, depressing the pituitary hormones (FSH and LH) and stopping oestrogen and progesterone that way. So no positive mood effects. Menopause caused by puberty blockers is said by some to be utterly miserable.
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:32 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You don't even need to go as far as "safeguarding" as a reason to exclude males from a female only space, if you can argue that it would discourage women from using a service the council provides that can be a legitimate reason to do so. So for example, a LA run swimming baths, a convincing argument that would carry legal weight would be that it would discourage some women from using such facilities if they had to share "open plan" changing areas with males.

This is already happening, in public swimming baths and for example the swimming ponds on Hampstead Heath. Women are self-excluding after realising that they are liable to encounter an intact male in what they thought was a female-only intimate space, and not going back.

What is often overlooked is the effect on women of certain religious groups, for example some strict Jewish sects, and Islam. They are not permitted by their religion to be in such a space if a man is there. So they either have to go and hope they get lucky, or stay away.

It was also pointed out that having single-sex washing facilities is essential to allow Moslem women to fulfil their prayer obligations. They must perform a ritual wash before they pray, and this must not be done in the presence of a man. If they can't do that, they can't pray. In the past they were able to use public women's lavatories for that purpose. No longer, certainly in some areas.

The council is in egregious breach of its obligations here. I imagine the women of Bristol are on it though.
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:57 AM   #189
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Wait wat

https://twitter.com/GcMisogyny/statu...16059459960832



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Old 1st October 2022, 12:01 PM   #190
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Oh, that's one for the block list!
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Old 1st October 2022, 12:05 PM   #191
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It'll be interesting to see how long it takes Twitter to ban this account for hate and violence.
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Old 1st October 2022, 12:36 PM   #192
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It'll never happen.
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Old 1st October 2022, 01:10 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It'll never happen.
Italiani non hanno il succo.
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Old 1st October 2022, 03:00 PM   #194
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This news story covers multiple bases, cancel (censorship) culture as well as the 'Trans Women are Women' issue, but it's worth looking at, what the students are saying, is pretty close to the 'biological sex is a social construct' idea that I've seen used by the right as a canard.



Quote:
PORTLAND, Maine — Nearly two dozen graduate students at the University of Southern Maine are demanding their education professor be replaced after the professor allegedly said only two biological sexes exist.

The students said professor Christy Hammer’s remarks were inaccurate and transphobic.

After all but one student walked out of Hammer’s class on Sept. 14 in protest, they demanded a facilitated restorative justice meeting between the 22 students and their professor.

They got it, but, according to students, Hammer maintained her position saying non-binary biological sex designations are merely variations on male and female. Now they want Hammer gone.

Biologists believe there is a larger spectrum to sex than just the male-female binary.

https://www.bangordailynews.com/2022...sor-two-sexes/
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Old 1st October 2022, 03:03 PM   #195
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That last sentence is bollocks anyway. There isn't anything more binary than male/female. Christy Hammer is right and her students are misinformed. It's a pity the article tries to make it look as if it's the other way round.
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Old 1st October 2022, 03:35 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
This news story covers multiple bases, cancel (censorship) culture as well as the 'Trans Women are Women' issue, but it's worth looking at, what the students are saying, is pretty close to the 'biological sex is a social construct' idea that I've seen used by the right as a canard.






https://www.bangordailynews.com/2022...sor-two-sexes/
The article cites that rubbish Scientific American article for the claim about what biologists believe. That's why these feel-good popular science journalism like that is not harmless.

Also from the source:

'Leibiger, who is non-binary, was absent from class that week but learned about the incident from classmates. When Leibiger arrived for the next class, on Sept. 14, they immediately brought up the discussion again.

“I asked [Hammer] how many sexes there were,” Leibiger said. “She said, ‘Two.’ I felt under personal attack.”

Leibiger then gathered their things and walked out of class because they no longer felt respected.

“I let her know I didn’t think she was qualified to teach a class about positive learning environments,” Leibiger said. “It’s the ultimate irony.”'

The ideology states that biological sex is a social construct and that male and female are 'identities'. It follows that if somebody doesn't identify as male or female, there must be more than two sexes. Defending basic biology now threatens academic careers. There is no difference between a student identifying as non-binary and demanding a teacher be sacked for teaching biological facts about sex, and a student identifying as a product of creation and demanding a teacher is sacked for teaching evolution. Except that hordes of idiots, including university managers and so-called 'skeptics' will support the former, while simultaneously denying it's happening.
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Old 1st October 2022, 03:39 PM   #197
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"Biologists believe there is a larger spectrum to sex than just the male-female binary."

Were any of these supposed biologists' ancestors neither male nor female?
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Old 1st October 2022, 03:47 PM   #198
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I have a horrible feeling we might be heading in the direction of "strict biological definitions of male/female" here, but I hesitate to direct anyone to the toxic thread that was created to keep a certain aspect of the discussion out of this thread.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:16 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
The article cites that rubbish Scientific American article for the claim about what biologists believe. That's why these feel-good popular science journalism like that is not harmless.

Also from the source:

'Leibiger, who is non-binary, was absent from class that week but learned about the incident from classmates. When Leibiger arrived for the next class, on Sept. 14, they immediately brought up the discussion again.

“I asked [Hammer] how many sexes there were,” Leibiger said. “She said, ‘Two.’ I felt under personal attack.”

Leibiger then gathered their things and walked out of class because they no longer felt respected.

“I let her know I didn’t think she was qualified to teach a class about positive learning environments,” Leibiger said. “It’s the ultimate irony.”'

The ideology states that biological sex is a social construct and that male and female are 'identities'. It follows that if somebody doesn't identify as male or female, there must be more than two sexes. Defending basic biology now threatens academic careers. There is no difference between a student identifying as non-binary and demanding a teacher be sacked for teaching biological facts about sex, and a student identifying as a product of creation and demanding a teacher is sacked for teaching evolution. Except that hordes of idiots, including university managers and so-called 'skeptics' will support the former, while simultaneously denying it's happening.
Unfortunately I think the professor will be moved on. When exactly did universities become the polar opposite institutes of free thought?
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:21 PM   #200
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I joined this forum almost 20 years ago because I was interested in arguing about homoeopathy. I simply could not understand why authorities like the BMA and the GMC and the BVA and the RCVS were prepared to tolerate and endorse such quackery practised by their supposedly professional membership.

I got fed up with it after a while and moved on. But I see the chickens seem to be coming home to roost on that one. We could be looking at the beginning of the end.

I always say, it takes longer than you think. Maybe it takes 20 years to get a really well-entrenched pile of woo dislodged from its place at the public table. But on the other hand homoeopathy has been around for over 200 years and Queen Victoria had a lot to do with it becoming so entrenched. Its roots were deep. This trans nonsense is relatively recent and is so mad that it could be a flash in the pan. I'm seeing some big cracks appearing already in ways I wasn't seeing with homoeopathy 20 years ago.

We'll see.
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