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Old 5th October 2022, 10:10 AM   #281
Rolfe
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I call monsters monsters. I think what is being done to these innocent, confused children is monstrous. Your mileage clearly varies.
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Old 5th October 2022, 12:23 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(Maybe read your previous several posts, with vitriolic rants about "monsters" etc.... then you might (you won't) realise how toxic and genuinely nasty this thread is, and why sane people want to stay well away from the likes of your opinions.....)
I read the thread and find it rational and well argued. My thing is the lack of confusion I see in the animal world, birds etc. Why are we different? Are there chimps self harming due to being in the wrong body?
I am serious in asking this, I would love to know what has gone tragically wrong in human biological/cultural evolution.
Has one animal anywhere ever been operated on?
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Old 5th October 2022, 12:43 PM   #283
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I have seen people claiming that their pet is trans, but I am unclear whether it was a parody. I strongly suspect that experimental surgery is being done on defenceless animals to allow surgeons to develop new techniques and practise their "skills". In fact, come to think of it, I know, because I saw a horrible paper where someone was trying to create a "penis" on a bitch. Actually a simulacrum of a human penis, because the dog penis doesn't work like that.

No of course not, nobody has ever seriously tried to change the body of an animal into a simulacrum of the opposite sex for the benefit of that animal, as opposed to an experiment related to human treatment.

An ethical experiment was done with young sheep where they were put on puberty blockers and their cognition and ability to learn and remember tasks tested. The results were horrifying, with clear adverse consequences for cognition and intelligence which were not rectified by stopping the puberty blockers. The trans advocates reacted to this with sneers at the lead researcher because "he's a vet!" Yes, a senior research fellow at the University of Glasgow.

Telling that the research was not commissioned by the people pushing puberty blockers on children (they just decided to go ahead and do it and claim it was all safe and reversible), but by people who were concerned that this wasn't true.

Human beings have complex brains, prone to going wrong in complex ways though.

As a vet, I'm used to the concept of "mutilations", that is surgical alteration of a healthy body, for social reasons. Spaying, castration, tail docking, dehorning, mulesing, other things. We try to question what we're doing and ask if it's really necessary, or really for the overall good of the animal or the group. If there's any way to avoid having to do it. So we've cut down on a lot of things that used to be routine, but then we get pushback from people who want to go on doing what they've always done.

But if anyone suggested doing to an animal what is done to human beings in these so-called "gender reassignment" procedures, they'd be denounced for gross cruelty. But then look at what's done to human beings in other contexts. Breast "ironing". Infubulation. Circumcision. The only thing that makes gender reassignment surgery better than any of that is that anaesthetics are used. The actual mutilations are if anything worse.
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Old 5th October 2022, 02:31 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I think a more interesting question is why academia keeps producing/finding people with such ideas, and funding them....

Here is one answer to that.

https://twitter.com/mike_salter/stat...11121664753664 (thread)

Quote:
Universities have incubated self-consciously transgressive, anti-normative writing about children's "desires" and "sexual agency" for decades, incentivising young academics in particular to take more extreme positions to carve out their own "shocking" niche in the marketplace.
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Old 5th October 2022, 05:59 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(Maybe read your previous several posts, with vitriolic rants about "monsters" etc.... then you might (you won't) realise how toxic and genuinely nasty this thread is, and why sane people want to stay well away from the likes of your opinions.....)
Have you read the articles Rolfe has recently linked? A hell of a lot of what Mermaids and fellow travellers are saying is potentially dangerous to young children. Monsters is a fair description.
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Old 6th October 2022, 01:37 AM   #286
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I don´t think most of those who push those unnecessary mutilations to kids are monsters, just deluded or wrong. I think most TRA are just following the latest progressive trend, and most people just follow trends without stopping to think for themselves whether it makes sense. I know people like that, they just parrot the latest soundbites they´ve read in their media outlets of choice, irreflexively, unquestioningly, because they come from the "good guys", the holy left. The style of argument from LJ is also similar, no ideas of their own, just appeals to some supposed wise experts somewhere who know what´s what. In contrast, gender critical posters in this thread have shown arguments, ideas, data, critical thinking.

At least that´s the impression I have got from lurking around. I keep coming back to see if the TRA side posts something meaningful but as time goes on it´s becoming clear that they have nothing of substance.
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Old 6th October 2022, 01:51 AM   #287
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I don´t know if you can understand Spanish. I saw this clip a while ago, before I even found this thread and knew much about the issue, but it creeped me out. I just remembered and google found it. A mother is asking her child whether they are a girl, and the child just seems to be answering what the mother is prompting them to say... feels like he/she´s been groomed and the mother just wanted a trans kid to show off...
https://twitter.com/miotroyo2parte/s...21648313843712

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Old 6th October 2022, 02:01 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I don´t think most of those who push those unnecessary mutilations to kids are monsters, just deluded or wrong. I think most TRA are just following the latest progressive trend, and most people just follow trends without stopping to think for themselves whether it makes sense. I know people like that, they just parrot the latest soundbites they´ve read in their media outlets of choice, irreflexively, unquestioningly, because they come from the "good guys", the holy left. The style of argument from LJ is also similar, no ideas of their own, just appeals to some supposed wise experts somewhere who know what´s what. In contrast, gender critical posters in this thread have shown arguments, ideas, data, critical thinking.

At least that´s the impression I have got from lurking around. I keep coming back to see if the TRA side posts something meaningful but as time goes on it´s becoming clear that they have nothing of substance.
Agreed. And with the false “authority” of Tavistock and Mermaids being exposed as the dangerous frauds they are, and Sweden, once the poster child of TRAs, backtracking, the “wise experts” are diminishing.

Sporting bodies are now moving to prohibit transwomen from competing against women (FINA and rugby authorities in the forefront). Lesbian and gay groups are objecting to accepting transgender people as sexual partners. I am seeing a powerful backlash. More power to them.

Now as I have said countless times, I have no problem with people adopting whatever gender they want. My objection, shared by many, is when some (really, most) TRAs demands compromise the rights and privacy of women. Stay out of change rooms, toilets, spas, sports, refuges and positions reserved for women.

Oh, and I still think the proposals of Mermaids are monsterous.
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Old 6th October 2022, 02:30 AM   #289
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If someone is doing monstrous things without realising they're monstrous, are they a monster? What about if they should realise? If they've had it pointed out to them time and time again? If they close their ears to everyone pointing out the harm they're doing and chant "terf, transphobe, bigot, hater" like a protective mantra?

I've no objection to competent adults doing what they want with their bodies (though I have some objection to paying for it), so long as they realise they can never become the opposite sex and stay out of the intimate spaces of the sex they aren't. The more I see of what is being done to children and teenagers the more horrified I am. Even the adults are far from immune from regret. The tsunami of regret that's coming from today's teenagers is going to be appalling.

It's hard to fathom the motivations of the people doing this, sometimes. Susie Green took her son to America to have his puberty blocked when he was 12 or 13, then to Taiwan (Thailand? sorry, this is getting hazy) to be castrated as soon as he was 16. She's now head of Mermaids, promoting this to other parents.

There really does seem to be an element of Munchhausen in this. The attention, the "we're special" and so on. Anybody remember "indigo children"? I keep coming across stories of children showing signs of feeling it has all got a bit out of hand and maybe they didn't really want to do this after all, and the mother pep-talking the kid into it. This from twitter today.

https://twitter.com/HereHareHa/statu...73153546592261 (thread)

Quote:
I've been reading through all the shocking emails from my time on Mermaid's parents forum. So many parents seemed to be more into the whole thing than their kid, doing 'tough love' by sending their child to school as the opposite sex despite the kid voicing doubts & crying...

The TRAs are pushing a mantra that it's good to be trans. That it's evil to want a child not to be trans. That a lifetime of dangerous medicalisation and experimental surgery is better than living in the body you have, without altering it. I don't know if they have no idea at all what they're promoting, but frankly, they should have. There is enough information out there. But, sunk costs and all that. They're doubling down.
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Old 6th October 2022, 05:01 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Here is one answer to that.

https://twitter.com/mike_salter/stat...11121664753664 (thread)
True, but then the question becomes why they have been pushing this stuff for decades.
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Old 6th October 2022, 05:02 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I read the thread and find it rational and well argued. My thing is the lack of confusion I see in the animal world, birds etc. Why are we different? Are there chimps self harming due to being in the wrong body?
I am serious in asking this, I would love to know what has gone tragically wrong in human biological/cultural evolution.
Has one animal anywhere ever been operated on?
Nearest thing I can think of it what happened in the mouse utopia experiment.
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Old 6th October 2022, 07:38 AM   #292
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I'm just back from the women's demo outside the Scottish parliament. There was an excellent line-up of speakers, the weather was good (apart from one light shower) and the event lasted for nearly two hours. Not a TRA in sight.

This was surprising as previous similar events have been disrupted by a (relatively small) crowd of pink-haired screamers shouting "Witch, witch" at the women and making so much noise it was difficult to hear what was being said. I wondered if they had realised this is really not a good look, but I don't think they have that much self-awareness.
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Old 6th October 2022, 08:29 AM   #293
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Mermaids have closed their helpline and web chat services. Temporarily, they say. Because of "intolerable abuse". Let's hope they never reopen.

Personally, I class preventing children from experiencing normal puberty, sexual satisfaction and being able to reproduce as intolerable abuse.
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Old 6th October 2022, 10:26 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I think people are arguing in the hopes that at least onlookers will realize the consequences of positions being taken. Because quite often, people don't realize.
Interesting. Thank you for the explanation. I'm inclined to think that once you are arguing about what a woman is and all the rest of it, one is already so unmoored from something fundamental that I am doubtful that the path back can be found. Negative consequences can always be attributed to not having gone far enough, society not having become accepting enough, or toxic masculinity or some other thing that further revolution is needed to fix.
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Old 6th October 2022, 10:39 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Interesting. Thank you for the explanation. I'm inclined to think that once you are arguing about what a woman is and all the rest of it, one is already so unmoored from something fundamental that I am doubtful that the path back can be found. Negative consequences can always be attributed to not having gone far enough, society not having become accepting enough, or toxic masculinity or some other thing that further revolution is needed to fix.
I think the problem we're seeing is that a lot of people haven't really thought about it. They rightly see LGB activism as a good thing, and assume that LGBT activism is just more of the same good thing. They've never actually stopped to consider the implications, or actually grasp the discrepancy or dis-analogy between LGB and T. These arguments are aimed at them, not at the true believers.

Bringing the controversies and scandals out into the open, where well-meaning but ignorant people are forced to actually see them and think about what they mean, is the goal. We're not trying to rehabilitate the crazy ones. We're trying to expose them and through exposure marginalize them and cut them off from their uninformed support.

I can offer myself as a minor example. My mind was not made up, at the beginning of this thread. I leaned a lot more pro-trans then than I do now. Over the course of this thread, I haven't changed the minds of any of the true believers, but their arguments have certainly changed mine. My hope, and increasingly my belief, is that there are a lot of people out there who are in my position. Who naively assumed that this was all good progress and humanitarian effort, with maybe a few awkward challenges still be addressed. Whose viewpoint will change, if the trans-rights movement is exposed as a tiny but vocal faction of crazy people using progressive goodwill as a trojan horse for their abuses.
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Old 6th October 2022, 10:55 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the problem we're seeing is that a lot of people haven't really thought about it. They rightly see LGB activism as a good thing, and assume that LGBT activism is just more of the same good thing. They've never actually stopped to consider the implications, or actually grasp the discrepancy or dis-analogy between LGB and T. These arguments are aimed at them, not at the true believers.
I think this is always true. The vast majority of people have never "thought about it" for every random important issue. Most people don't need to have thought about any of these issues. You have a process of top down consensus forming. Otherwise everything would be hopelessly fragmented.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bringing the controversies and scandals out into the open, where well-meaning but ignorant people are forced to actually see them and think about what they mean, is the goal. We're not trying to rehabilitate the crazy ones. We're trying to expose them and through exposure marginalize them and cut them off from their uninformed support.
Maybe. My impression is that most people are in little bubbles where it is hard for this stuff to get in, and if it does it is against a background of assumptions and truths that make it hard to stick. Even if the majority of people have sane opinions on this stuff, it is the sorts of people who decide what is covered in CNN, or the NYT who control the culture, not the opinions of the majority. We will see though.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nobody here was going to change SuburbanTurkey's mind. But some people here were going to see that what he had to offer wasn't science and reason, but only knee-jerk insults and vague handwaving. When Boudicca openly asserted that she is, in fact, biologically female, that was significant. Not so much for her, but for onlookers trying to make sense of trans claims and the reasoning behind them.
What interests me is trying to get into the heads of people holding these views that are radically different from my own. Find a perspective from which they seem reasonable. I don't think there is much of a desire to make that easy :-)
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Old 6th October 2022, 11:20 AM   #297
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One of the speakers at today's demo was a former prison governor. She explained - and she had the receipts - that the TRAs had been active in trying to get laws changed as far back as 2011, when most of us didn't have a freaking clue what was going on or what was about to hit us. A crucial aim was to get references to "sex" in prisons legislation changed to "gender". The then Justice Minister has written about how he was blindsided by this, having no idea of the possible interpretations that were going to be put on that. (He is not the brightest, is our Kenny. Readers of the Lockerbie threads may remember me mentioning this.)

There are direct quotes from the TRAs involved with this. It was a "strategic objective" to get men into women's prisons, because they reckoned that one was so extreme that once it was accomplished there would be no arguments for keeping men out of any other female spaces. And it turns out, who would have thought it, that the public doesn't care all that much about women prisoners and once the rapes and the pregnancies started everyone just looked the other way.

This is now so embedded in the justice system that there are no data at all on whether anyone is male or female or what sex people are who have committed particular crimes. It's going to be a massive job to unwind it all.

One of the other speakers was a woman from Ireland, who was practically in tears. Ireland passed self-ID in 2015 (I think she said) and the situation is dire. Men go where they want and there are three people in women's prisons convicted of sexual assault (up from none at all any time you care to look before 2015). She said nobody knew what was being passed, certainly nobody asked the women or any women's groups, and a lot of people still don't know until they themselves encounter a man where no man should be.

(I thought I had read that in Ireland there was an exemption to the self-ID law saying no males in women's prisons, but as far as I can make out that fell almost immediately because the legislation was worded so that the transwomen simply say they are women, end of. I still don't think they can join a nunnery though. Or that women can become priests.)
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Old 6th October 2022, 11:38 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
One of the speakers at today's demo was a former prison governor. She explained - and she had the receipts - that the TRAs had been active in trying to get laws changed as far back as 2011, when most of us didn't have a freaking clue what was going on or what was about to hit us. A crucial aim was to get references to "sex" in prisons legislation changed to "gender". The then Justice Minister has written about how he was blindsided by this, having no idea of the possible interpretations that were going to be put on that. (He is not the brightest, is our Kenny. Readers of the Lockerbie threads may remember me mentioning this.)

There are direct quotes from the TRAs involved with this. It was a "strategic objective" to get men into women's prisons, because they reckoned that one was so extreme that once it was accomplished there would be no arguments for keeping men out of any other female spaces. And it turns out, who would have thought it, that the public doesn't care all that much about women prisoners and once the rapes and the pregnancies started everyone just looked the other way.
This, along with how long things have been going in the academy, that I think you mentioned earlier, seems like a really good point to me. As much as there are autogynephilic men in this, it's much more than that. This is a well thought out, organised effort that has been at work for a long time. We didn't get to the point where politicians pretended they didn't know what a woman is in 5 minutes. Many other battles had to be won first.
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Old 6th October 2022, 11:47 AM   #299
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Do you know about the "Denton's Playbook"?

Quote:
A major international law firm has helped write a lobbying manual for people who want to change the law to prevent parents having the final say about significant changes in the status of their own children. That manual advises those lobbying for that change to hide their plans behind a 'veil' and to make sure that neither the media nor the wider public know much about the changes affecting children that they are seeking to make. Because if the public find out about those changes, they might well object to them.

I've read a fair bit about the funding of all this, and one of the strands is a great deal of money coming from certain parts of Silicon Valley where there are transwomen earning oodles of bucks in trendy tech companies. One of the names that keeps coming up is one "Jennifer Pritzker", who in addition to being trans is spoken of as having deeper aims, something about transhumanism. This is a recent article about it.

I have seen people dismissing Jennifer Bilek, the woman who writes about this, as being unhinged, but I simply don't know. The whole thing seems to be unhinged, but I don't think she's making it up.
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Old 6th October 2022, 11:57 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm just back from the women's demo outside the Scottish parliament. There was an excellent line-up of speakers, the weather was good (apart from one light shower) and the event lasted for nearly two hours. Not a TRA in sight.

This was surprising as previous similar events have been disrupted by a (relatively small) crowd of pink-haired screamers shouting "Witch, witch" at the women and making so much noise it was difficult to hear what was being said. I wondered if they had realised this is really not a good look, but I don't think they have that much self-awareness.

Has the Pissed Off Trannies protest been discussed already?
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgpj...s-ehrc-protest

Quote:
Trans activists left over 60 bottles of piss outside the offices of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) on Friday afternoon to protest the government watchdog’s policy on trans access to public facilities.

Masked representatives of the anonymous group Pissed Off Trannies (POT) ceremonially delivered the urine to the EHRC offices in Westminster, London and staged what they described as a “piss-in”.

One member pissed herself in her bejewelled gown, before pouring bottles of urine on herself and the pavement outside the building, all the while shouting: “The EHRC has blood on its hands and piss on its streets”.
Somehow, this action has not made me feel like transwomen are normal women who just want to use the washroom of their choosing in peace. Their main representative seems like a urine fetishist who enjoys covering themselves, and everything else, in urine. Maybe my feminist history is a bit shoddy - have their been historic women's protests where a woman would don a grotesque mallard mask, and then douse themselves in pee, producing a full body "wet t-shirt" effect? I almost posted a photo, but I will let members choose to click on the link or not.

I am curious if there are any TRAs that publicly objected to the Piss-In. It can be frustrating for activists, trying to police other activists who are on your side, but whose tactics produce more harm than good. But if you don't do it amongst yourselves, then you will all be lumped together in the public eye.
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Old 6th October 2022, 12:02 PM   #301
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I read about it at the time. It's just One More Thing.

These people are not feminine. They do not have "women's brains". They are fetishists for whom LARPing as a hypersexualised woman is part of their schtick. There are way too many of them. I came across one of them myself, at one remove as it were. (I encountered the pee, not the actual pee-er.) These are the people at the cutting edge of the campaign to gain access to women's intimate spaces. Quelle surprise.
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Old 6th October 2022, 12:16 PM   #302
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An open letter to the First Minister

The end of the letter is attached to the second tweet. This woman can write. I appreciate she had to get that off her chest and it's a shame none of it will be read by the addressee. But it's a good addition to the debate.

I laughed when she suggested one of the reasons Sturgeon is so intransigent is that her husband is very good friends with Patrick Harvie, leader of the Scottish Greens and a very out gay man. I have no bloody gaydar, but I have been told by those who have that Peter Murrell (Mr Sturgeon) is "as camp as a row of tents". There are photos of Sturgeon from the 1980s in which she looks like a young butch lesbian (or it could just be the fashion of the times, who knows) and there are highly credible stories of her affairs with various women in recent years. The marriage is said to be a sham (lavender) for political purposes.

I think Sturgeon is more than just a coward. I think a woman who was involved in (and probably headed up) a plot to frame and have her predecessor convicted of rape when he expressed dissatisfaction with her performance and suggested he might come back into politics himself to do something about it isn't merely a passive vehicle.

God knows what's going to happen, but when the proverbial hits the fan, nobody will be able to say the Scottish Government wasn't warned. It just insisted there was "no debate".
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Old 6th October 2022, 12:36 PM   #303
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Mod Warning

There are very few philosophical areas of discussion that are valid for this current thread


I was feeling kind, so rather than putting the derail about philosophical ideas about morality in Abandon All Hope, I split them to Religion and Philosophy

"Meta Arguments about morality tangentially related to gender identity"


Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:jimbob
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Old 6th October 2022, 01:24 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Mermaids have closed their helpline and web chat services. Temporarily, they say. Because of "intolerable abuse". Let's hope they never reopen.

Personally, I class preventing children from experiencing normal puberty, sexual satisfaction and being able to reproduce as intolerable abuse.

OK, I'm slow on the uptake. There was some mention in the Mermaids tweet about taking all volunteers off the helpline rota. Where is the penny-drop smilie when you need it? (Do we even have one?)

Lots of speculation on Twitter now that Mermaids haven't done background checks on their volunteers, that they haven't been DBS checked (for volunteering with children they should have advanced DBS checks), and that there may be numbers of AGP men or even pederasts among them.

https://twitter.com/CroneInAMillion/status/1578037774078595072

Someone else said no, it's the other way round, the volunteers all did a runner. If that's true it may well come down to the same thing. That the volunteers realised they were next to go under the spotlight and they wouldn't be able to stand the heat.
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Old 6th October 2022, 02:02 PM   #305
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Here is more about Jacob Breslow. The man very clearly has had an unhealthy sexual interest in children for many years. His thesis, as the tweeter says, reads like "a nonce convention manifesto". Someone else comments that “Queer theory is just the deconstruction of the real world by people who want to reconstruct a new one around their own dark desires”.

Another reaction: "I really appreciate this summary. Thank you. Obviously by "appreciate" I mean "I now want to bleach my eyeballs to cleanse them from what I just read"."

Obviously we can't know for sure if he has ever abused a child personally, but going by what he has written I would put that at a very high probability.

Mermaids is going to try to claim they had no idea. But it was all there in the public domain. Even if he approached them because of some public appeal for volunteer trustees, the phrase "due diligence" springs to mind. The word is rather that Mermaids approached him, even headhunted him, and that they knew all this. There is something about his profile being hidden on their page about their trustees even before this blew up, as if they didn't want him to be scrutinised.

I wonder how deep this actually goes? Bear in mind the objective of this organisation is to encourage little boys to wear girls' clothes, and not just ordinary girls' clothes in many cases but sexualised outfits, including the child drag queen acts and so on. That they openly encouraged children to come to their stands by promising sweeties and puppies. (You couldn't make it up.) That they ran residential courses where young confused children shared space with older, trans-addled teenagers.

That once the boys were established in girls' clothes the next step they pushed was puberty blockers. Like they were pushing heroin, quite frankly. Hand in glove with the Webberleys. So as the other boys developed deep voices and adult genitalia and beard growth, these Peter Pan boys stayed children. Wow, surely no pederast would be interested in this, really, no? They had the mothers on board by a mixture of encouraging Munchhausens and terrifying them that if they didn't consent to the puberty blockers their child would commit suicide.

Then the next stage was to switch to administering oestrogen, then to castrate the boys and fashion an artificial cavity they call a "neovagina". Unfortunately the gold standard for this operation in adult men (which is an entirely different issue and does not remove the ability to experience sexual arousal if done right) requires an adult penis to create the cavity. These boys don't have that so work-arounds have to be done using other tissues. This doesn't work nearly so well ("well" being relative here) and when colon tissue is used (quite commonly) the cavity retains a smell of bowel contents more or less permanently.

These children will never experience orgasm or sexual arousal. The cavity is meant for another man's penis, but the "transgirl" will get nothing out of it. Maybe a bit of prostate sensation depending on the exact anatomy? They are turning boys into feminine-looking sex dolls with no sexual function.

And people are surprised that at least one pederast is right in the midst of all this?

ETA: Here is another thread reviewing that damn thesis, with different examples but just as much horror. https://twitter.com/Scottish_Women/s...99272469295104
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Old 6th October 2022, 02:11 PM   #306
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Oh God here's another one.

The National Lottery has suspended its grant to Mermaids. Someone is looking into the circumstances surrounding the original granting of funds. One comment (from the National Lottery) was that another funding provider had backed off because they thought that what Mermaids was doing could encourage children to become trans. No way, Sherlock! Mermaids themselves were cock-a-hoop when, after the TV series "Butterfly" (which they advised on and was practically an advert for the social cachet of being a trans child) the numbers of children joining their youth group and calling their helpline mushroomed.

This has the potential to be another Jimmy Savile scandal.

Which reminds me that around the time I was first becoming aware of all this there was a schoolboy called Liam Madigan who transitioned to become Lily and then got involved with his local Labour party and managed to get elected as the women's representative at the age of nineteen. Someone found his original Twitter profile from before he became Lily, and his Twiter bio included the words "Savile's apprentice".

Jeremy Corbyn thought he was wonderful, of course.
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Old 6th October 2022, 02:15 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Jeremy Corbyn thought he was wonderful, of course.
If Jeremy Corbyn was suspicious enough of his fellow travellers to see through this guy, he wouldn't be Jeremy Corbyn.
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Old 6th October 2022, 02:18 PM   #308
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Jeremy Corbyn, like just about every man in the Labour party and half the women, is completely captured.
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Old 6th October 2022, 03:04 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Actually, that's just the same one again.
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Old 6th October 2022, 03:07 PM   #310
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You're right, I have pasted the wrong link. If I find the right one in the next hour I will edit it.

ETA: OK, done, the link is right now. Something a bit weird happening in my browser because it kept holding the "Hatpinwoman" url in the header even though the page that was showing was the Legal Feminist one.

Thank you so much for noticing and pointing it out.
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Old 7th October 2022, 04:13 AM   #311
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Still on the subject of transitioning children with the inevitable sterility outcome, this is a really disturbing video that has just shown up.

https://twitter.com/Miriam_Grossman/...65282362703872

Doctor says there are cases of sterility regret, but what can you do? Talking to a 14-year-old about this is like talking to a brick wall. Yeuch, babies, gross. Or, I'll just adopt. And you ask, do you know what's involved? Do you know how much that costs? And they say, I thought you just went to the orphanage and they gave you one. It's the same talking to a 14-year-old about diabetic complications. They're not gonna die. They're going to live forever.

Maybe the parents have some reservations. But the kids? Then fifteen years down the line, the dog isn't quite doing it for you, huh? Oh I've met this wonderful partner and we want kids, da da da. But what can you do? We want the kids to be happy in the moment, don't we?

These doctors know the children they're sterilising are nowhere near mature enough to make an informed decision on this. The description of the 14-year-old's replies shows that clearly enough. Doctors take this to the opposite extreme in other circumstances. Young women who have a couple of children already and want their tubes tied - no, you might change your mind. Young woman whose life is hell due to endometriosis who says, I can't stand this, I'd rather be infertile than go through this pain - no, you might change your mind. And these are women a lot older than fourteen.

But the trans child? We want them to be happy in the moment, don't we?
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Old 7th October 2022, 10:58 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
These doctors know the children they're sterilising are nowhere near mature enough to make an informed decision on this.
That's actually a good point.

It wasn't all that long ago the medical industry in NZ had a very firm rule about not performing even vasectomies on men under 40. Now, you can have the lot sliced off with no qualms.

Still, look at the upside - if we allow them to go a bit lower the Vienna Boys' Choir can bring back castratos!
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Old 7th October 2022, 11:06 AM   #313
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It's there already. These puberty blocking drugs are chemical castration. Administer them before the boy's voice has broken and it will stay treble or alto. That's part of why they're pushing the drugs. To prevent the masculinising effects of puberty. So that the castrated boy will be easier to turn into a facsimile of a woman.

A sterile, sexless facsimile of a woman, with life-long medical needs and problems.
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Old 7th October 2022, 11:10 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's actually a good point.

It wasn't all that long ago the medical industry in NZ had a very firm rule about not performing even vasectomies on men under 40. Now, you can have the lot sliced off with no qualms.

Still, look at the upside - if we allow them to go a bit lower the Vienna Boys' Choir can bring back castratos!
They are 'allowing them to go a bit lower'. The new WPATH guidelines remove all age limits for 'gender-affirming' surgery apart from being in Tanner stage 2 of puberty (which is first signs of puberty).

They also state that children can have an 'innate eunuch identity'.
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Old 7th October 2022, 11:16 AM   #315
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The voice is an interesting thing though. Boys' and girls' singing voices sound subtly different even before puberty. Countertenors and castrati sound male. Women who have taken testosterone all sound the same, not like women but not like men either. It's possible to have some training to disguise this, but many people nevertheless fail.
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Old 7th October 2022, 11:28 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's there already. These puberty blocking drugs are chemical castration. Administer them before the boy's voice has broken and it will stay treble or alto. That's part of why they're pushing the drugs. To prevent the masculinising effects of puberty. So that the castrated boy will be easier to turn into a facsimile of a woman.

A sterile, sexless facsimile of a woman, with life-long medical needs and problems.
Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
They are 'allowing them to go a bit lower'. The new WPATH guidelines remove all age limits for 'gender-affirming' surgery apart from being in Tanner stage 2 of puberty (which is first signs of puberty).

They also state that children can have an 'innate eunuch identity'.
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The voice is an interesting thing though. Boys' and girls' singing voices sound subtly different even before puberty. Countertenors and castrati sound male. Women who have taken testosterone all sound the same, not like women but not like men either. It's possible to have some training to disguise this, but many people nevertheless fail.
LondonJohn (or literally any pro-TRA adherent who might stumble across this post), if gender identity has nothing to do with biological sex, and transgender identity isn't even a disorder, then why are these radical surgeries and hormone therapies seen as necessary parts of transitioning for so many people?
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Old 7th October 2022, 11:38 AM   #317
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"Experts who know far more than you or I do about any of this have determined that it is a valid lived condition."
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Old 7th October 2022, 12:21 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
They also state that children can have an 'innate eunuch identity'.
They can if you castrate them.
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Old 7th October 2022, 12:29 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
"Experts who know far more than you or I do about any of this have determined that it is a valid lived condition."
And you are toxic and nasty for doubting them.
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Old 7th October 2022, 12:41 PM   #320
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A bigot, too. You forgot that bit.
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