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Old 22nd January 2023, 05:26 AM   #1
mikegriffith1
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Are You a "Bigot" If You Don't Think Homosexuality Should Be Celebrated?

In a disturbing display of intolerance and bullying, many liberals have bitterly attacked Philadelphia Flyers hockey player Ivan Provorov for declining to wear a gay pride-themed jersey during a "Pride Night" game a few days ago. Many liberals have called Provorov every name in the book, including "bigot," "racist," "homophobe," and "hater," and have mocked his religious faith. When several NHL players similarly refused to wear gay pride-themed uniforms last year, some liberals called on the NHL to fine them for "bigotry," "hate," etc.

So have liberals "progressed" (pun intended) to the point that they will accuse someone of bigotry, hatred, and homophobia simply because that person does not want to wear clothing that celebrates homosexuality while on the job? How many liberals think that sports players who decline to wear gay-pride jerseys should be fined?

I find the liberal attacks on Provorov chilling and worrying, not to mention authoritarian and oppressive.

If a sports team decided to hold a "Family Pride Night" and asked players to wear a jersey that included symbols that celebrated the traditional family unit (dad and mom and children), what would liberals say if conservatives claimed that players who declined to wear the jersey were bigots, and if conservatives demanded that those players be fined for their alleged hatred of the traditional family unit?

I'm pretty sure that Provorov is not a "homophobe." Do liberals actually know what "homophobe" means? A phobia is not just a fear of something. If someone is an arachnophobe, for example, it means they became genuinely, intensely frightened at the very sight of a spider. I would bet that 99% of those Americans who don't think homosexuality is a good thing do not become intensely frightened at the sight of a gay person. I certainly do not.

Finally, consider the harsh attacks that some liberals have made against former NFL and NFL Hall of Fame coach Tony Dungy over his announcement last week that he will attend a March for Life event. Sheesh, so now it's "bigotry" and "hatred" to attend an event that seeks to protect unborn children from abortion? Why is it okay to attend "pro-choice" events, which seek to keep the killing of unborn babies legal, but not okay to attend events that seek to ensure that unborn babies be afforded the most basic human right of all--the right to life?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 07:04 AM   #2
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This post is like if the "Paradox of Tolerance" gained sentience and was ranting on Youtube from the cab of a pickup truck while wearing wrapround mirrored sunglasses.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 07:15 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
I'm pretty sure that Provorov is not a "homophobe."
Why?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 07:23 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This post is like if the "Paradox of Tolerance" gained sentience and was ranting on Youtube from the cab of a pickup truck while wearing wrapround mirrored sunglasses.
It really isn't!
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Old 22nd January 2023, 07:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
...snip...
Why does it upset you so much that other people have different values to you? Why are you so concerned about how you appear to other people?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 07:40 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why does it upset you so much that other people have different values to you? Why are you so concerned about how you appear to other people?
Why are you making this about the poster and not the subject of the post? Ad hominem?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 07:56 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Why are you making this about the poster and not the subject of the post? Ad hominem?
I thought mikegriffith1 was sharing his views on what he sees as hypocrisy?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 07:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
.
Finally, consider the harsh attacks that some liberals have made against former NFL and NFL Hall of Fame coach Tony Dungy over his announcement last week that he will attend a March for Life event. Sheesh, so now it's "bigotry" and "hatred" to attend an event that seeks to protect unborn children from abortion? Why is it okay to attend "pro-choice" events, which seek to keep the killing of unborn babies legal, but not okay to attend events that seek to ensure that unborn babies be afforded the most basic human right of all--the right to life?
This feels off-topic given the thread title and the rest of your post, but, this is the OP. So, what exactly is the topic of this thread?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 08:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I thought mikegriffith1 was sharing his views on what he sees as hypocrisy?
In which case how about explaining why you think it isn't instead of criticising the poster himself.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 08:29 AM   #10
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A disturbing display of intolerance and bullying, many liberals have bitterly attacked Philadelphia Flyers hockey player Ivan Provorov? Many liberals?

Ironically, in looking at news stories they are mostly right-wingers supporting and defending Provorov. The premise set forth by the OP appears to me to be a bad-faith and manipulative argument. I think it might be more accurate to state:
Quote:
Many liberals have bitterly attacked never heard of Philadelphia Flyers hockey player Ivan Provorov.
I did see one comment from a young woman posting on Twitter asking, why should she respect Provorov if he doesn't respect her. Does that qualify as a 'bitter attack?' I do understand why Provorov may have decided NOT wearing a Gay Pride themed jersey worked better for him.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 08:51 AM   #11
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Is this even a politics issue? Feels more Culture War-y.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 08:52 AM   #12
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Lotta different angles here. First off, a homophobe .means someone with a dislike/prejudice about gay people. It's not meant as a DSM classification.

The big thing with our intrepid Russkie is that he is a practicing Russian Orthodox, who thinks homosexuality is wrong/sinful. Ok, as long as he doesn't act out on that and discriminate against LGBTQs, he is allowed to follow his religious beliefs. Fair. But should he be required to openly support something he doesn't actually support? Doesn't seem right. Back in the Red Ribbon days, a lot of us didn't wear ribbons, not because we were not supportive of AIDS awareness, but because I'm not your ******* Ken doll to dress up as you please. More recently, we had black people stop white people in the street, jabbing a finger in the chest and demanding "Say their Names!" (happened to me in BLM marches in two towns). I show support through my own words and actions, such as marching in the George Floyd protests. That doesn't make me the dancing ******* monkey for any rando happening by.

The "Traditional Family Pride" thing is not a clean comparison tho. The traditional family unit is not exactly under siege in the way gay lifestyles are. A better comparison might be "Non-Practicing Pedophile Inclusion Night", where everyone shows support for those who suffer from pedophilia are told they are human too. But showing pride about it? I think a lot would object. Hyperbolic, yes, and no, homosexuality and pedophilia are not comparable, but the "show support whether you have pride or not" angle is clean pool.

So the OP asks a fair question, despite it's flawed delivery: should you be required to show Pride for something you do not consider a celebration?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 08:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Is this even a politics issue? Feels more Culture War-y.
I tend to agree. You could report it to be moved to the social issues subforum?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 08:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Is this even a politics issue? Feels more Culture War-y.
This comment fits well in the Drag Shows thread, too. Among others in Pol.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 09:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
A disturbing display of intolerance and bullying, many liberals have bitterly attacked Philadelphia Flyers hockey player Ivan Provorov? Many liberals?

Ironically, in looking at news stories they are mostly right-wingers supporting and defending Provorov. The premise set forth by the OP appears to me to be a bad-faith and manipulative argument. I think it might be more accurate to state:


I did see one comment from a young woman posting on Twitter asking, why should she respect Provorov if he doesn't respect her. Does that qualify as a 'bitter attack?' I do understand why Provorov may have decided NOT wearing a Gay Pride themed jersey worked better for him.
There are quite a few articles that take the tack that he should have been punished in some way. Here's CBS Sports:

Quote:
Provorov then identified himself as Russian Orthodox and later shut down a question as to whether he was concerned his skipping warmups would lead to him not playing in the game.
And:

Quote:
Tortorella added that he did not consider scratching Provorov despite the player's choice to miss warmups over the jersey and that Tuesday was "a great night in celebrating."
Greg Wyshynski of ESPN thought he was making an devastating point when he noted that Provarov was happy to donate a jersey on military appreciation night.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 09:10 AM   #16
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The real question is if Provorov is under contract to participate in these sort of team outreach events. If he is, his religious nonsense is irrelevant. He should do his job, renegotiate his contract, or break his contract and deal with the consequences. If he isn’t, he can do what he wants and deal with the consequences.

Either way, nothing here protects public figures from public opinion. That is the nature of living in a free society.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 09:24 AM   #17
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As a general rule, not necessarily but it would depend on a variety of factors including why you don't think that and to what degree you are supportive of the LGBTQ community otherwise.

In this specific case, yes. This is absolutely the act of a bigot. Not because he declined to wear the jersey, but because the rationale behind it was that gay people are "sinners" and by extension deserve eternal punishment for their sin.

The "family night" comparison is laughable, but that's about the level of thought I'd expect.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 09:30 AM   #18
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My gay friends go all out to celebrate and party during the annual Pride days. The rest of the year they are just people with very little reference to, let alone celebration of, their orientation. I choose not to join them for these Pride parties and celebrations. Mostly because I do not care for crowds and large celebrations. AFAIK none of my gay friends thinks my choice not to celebrate with them makes me a bigot.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 09:35 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
My gay friends go all out to celebrate and party during the annual Pride days. The rest of the year they are just people with very little reference to, let alone celebration of, their orientation. I choose not to join them for these Pride parties and celebrations. Mostly because I do not care for crowds and large celebrations. AFAIK none of my gay friends thinks my choice not to celebrate with them makes me a bigot.
As with most things, context matters.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 10:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Is this even a politics issue? Feels more Culture War-y.
There's a difference?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 10:07 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Is this even a politics issue? Feels more Culture War-y.
Well it is framed in a way that only makes sense (what little it manages) from a USA right leaning perspective, I suspect to most of us here who aren't embedded in USA political culture it is a weird quilt work of non sequiturs.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 10:09 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There are quite a few articles that take the tack that he should have been punished in some way. Here's CBS Sports:

...snip...
There is not even a hint of a suggestion that he should be punished in any way in that report.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 10:10 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Is this even a politics issue? Feels more Culture War-y.
Rightie tighties are obliged to make everything political. Otherwise, they have no way to get attention.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 10:14 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well it is framed in a way that only makes sense (what little it manages) from a USA right leaning perspective, I suspect to most of us here who aren't embedded in USA political culture it is a weird quilt work of non sequiturs.
The whole gig here is that the hommes is...Russian, isn't it? And Russian Orthodox?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 10:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The whole gig here is that the hommes is...Russian, isn't it? And Russian Orthodox?
And abortion?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 10:18 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And abortion?
He got aborted? Philly hockey fans are getting out of control.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 11:00 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why?
Because according to people like Mike Griffith and Provorov, hating on gays is not actually homophobic.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 11:29 AM   #28
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From the Philadelphia Inquirer.
Quote:
Provorov told reporters after the game that he declined to participate in the warmup because he had “to stay true to myself and my religion.” Provorov, a Russian national, identifies as Russian Orthodox, part of the larger communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. “I respect everyone. I respect everybody’s choices,” Provorov said. The Flyers organization later released a statement reiterating its commitment to inclusivity and advocacy for the LGBT community — though not outright referencing the defenseman. Philadelphia Inquirer link
The Inquirer also reported:
Quote:
The Orthodox Church believes homosexuality is a sin and does not perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. “The Orthodox Church cannot and will not bless same-sex unions,” the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops stated. “Whereas marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred institution ordained by God, homosexual union is not.” In Russia, where 70% of the country identifies as Eastern Orthodox, the church’s top official has doubled down on its anti-LGBT policies. In 2017, the church’s head, Patriarch Kirill, likened gay marriage to Nazi Germany, and earlier the church had supported a law enacting harsh fines to combat “homosexual propaganda aimed at minors.”
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Old 22nd January 2023, 01:30 PM   #29
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As I stated previously, the question posed by the OP seems to me to be made in bad faith and is manipulative. Should a contract worker be required to show support for something he does not personally support? The answer the Philadelphia Flyers gave is clear: No they should not.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 01:52 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Why?
What makes you think he is? Just because he does not want to wear a gay-pride jersey? But, let's suppose he is. So what? Has he ever mistreated a gay person? Has he ever uttered a critical word about gays as people? As far as anyone knows, the answer to both questions is No.

What's more, what business do sports teams have in the first place in asking their players to wear symbols on their jerseys that have political and moral connotations, especially on a controversial issue?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:10 PM   #31
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How soon till we have an America where a gay hockey player can't play hockey because watching him play hockey would turn children gay?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Because according to people like Mike Griffith and Provorov, hating on gays is not actually homophobic.
Huh? Just huh? So according to you, Provorov is guilty of "hating on gays" simply because he does not want to wear a gay pride-themed jersey? Wow. That's an extremely warped take on his action.

And let me guess: You're part of the woke crowd that is constantly lecturing everyone else about "tolerance" and "inclusion." You folks only tolerate and include people if they don't disagree with your views.

If I say that I don't think that serial adultery is a good thing, would you say that I was expressing "hate" toward all adulterers?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:19 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
How soon till we have an America where a gay hockey player can't play hockey because watching him play hockey would turn children gay?
I find this Thread disturbing because no one has mentioned the fact the Russian Orthodox Church ones participated in the Exicution of Homosexuals.
So he follows a religious doctrine known not only to discriminate but to Encourage the execution of Homosexual people in the past.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:21 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
Huh? Just huh? So according to you, Provorov is guilty of "hating on gays" simply because he does not want to wear a gay pride-themed jersey? Wow. That's an extremely warped take on his action.

Believing that gay people should burn in hell for all eternity isn't particularly kind
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
I'm pretty sure that Provorov is not a "homophobe."
He belongs to a church that is homophobic, and he stands behind the homophobic beliefs of his church. That makes him a homophobe.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:28 PM   #36
mikegriffith1
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
How soon till we have an America where a gay hockey player can't play hockey because watching him play hockey would turn children gay?
Oh my goodness. You must know this is a phony strawman argument. We both know that you can't name a soul on this planet who has said that gays should not be able to play on professional sports teams because children would turn gay from watching them play.

Rather than address liberal intolerance and intimidation on this issue, you guys resort to extreme polemics to mischaracterize those who disagree with your views on homosexuality.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:30 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
In which case how about explaining why you think it isn't instead of criticising the poster himself.
He asked two questions. How is that criticism?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:32 PM   #38
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Homophobia seems to be used in two ways.

First and increasingly less commonly as an anxiety disorder along the lines of intense fear of snakes, shadows, heights, etc.

Secondly as a general disgust or disdain for homosexuals.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 02:56 PM   #39
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Re the OP title: Are You a "Bigot" If You Don't Think Homosexuality Should Be Celebrated?

Question: Why is there the unspoken tone that homosexuality is not worthy of celebration? That it is something bad. So what is this celebration that seems offensive? Are you confusing "celebration" with "recognition" and "acceptance"? Or even just "tolerance"?

Seriously, the Sixties called and want their mojo back.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 03:02 PM   #40
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The OP's hyperbole about the viciousness of the reaction to said hockey player aside, I think the answer to the question is "yes". Religious dogma informing someone that homosexuality is a sin seems no different to me than finding the same justification for opposing interracial marriage or allowing women to vote and own property. I'm sure examples could be found of people being excessively vitriolic in criticizing his position on homosexuality, but histrionics about how mean people are don't change the fact that thinking gay people should be denigrated as "wrong" is essentially bigoted.
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