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Tags assassinations , Kennedy conspiracies , RFK assassination , Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

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Old 25th June 2018, 06:18 PM   #361
carlitos
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Hey we convicted some people of witchcraft in the past too. Surely that remains a possibility with the RFK case, that Sirhan was acting under a witch’s spell.
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Old 25th June 2018, 06:38 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
https://listverse.com/2015/10/16/10-...s-of-hypnosis/



For mine, this has all the hallmarks of a BS story. I have highlighted the really dubious bits..

*1: No way can a person be an unwilling participant in hyponosis.

*2: It is not possible to hypnotise a person to have a skill they did not have previously. If it were possible, every weekend bogey golf hacker could be hypnotised into being a Major winner, every weekend gun enthusiast could be hypnotised into being an Olympic sharpshooter.

On the other hand a person with a anti-sociopathic mind set could be made to commit murder. Just like he/she would in the "normal" course of life, Ted Bundy for example.


Now the question is did Sirhan dislike RFK in a morbid manner prior to the incident?
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Old 25th June 2018, 06:54 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Hey we convicted some people of witchcraft in the past too. Surely that remains a possibility with the RFK case, that Sirhan was acting under a witch’s spell.
She turned him into a newt...he got better...


...someone was going to say it...
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Old 25th June 2018, 07:05 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
On the other hand a person with a anti-sociopathic mind set could be made to commit murder. Just like he/she would in the "normal" course of life, Ted Bundy for example.


Now the question is did Sirhan dislike RFK in a morbid manner prior to the incident?
He told Alvin Clark that he planned to shoot RFK. His diary was full of anti-RFK ranting.

He was a Palestinian Christian, and his stated reason for killing RFK was the Senator's support for the sale of 50 fighter-bombers to Israel.
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Old 26th June 2018, 01:52 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And which of those three options are you claiming for your utterly unevidenced claim that the MSM has never reported the RFK conspiracy theories before?

I do find this claim rather rich coming from you. How many pages in the JFK thread did you devote to arguing about the exact meaning of the word "should"?




Just because you haven't read it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

"My" driplets (actually Wikipedia's list) demonstrate this point exactly. The whole point is that they are from a very long period of time, something you claimed was the opposite (that this phenomenon was a recent one).

I also note the shift of goalposts at the end. Your first claim was that the various theories had not been picked up on by the MSM. Now you appear to be trying to change this to "balanced" reporting.
On this point, as you are now making claims about the balance of these articles, just to clarify: by 'balance', I trust you mean 'fairly reporting both sides of the story', rather than 'breathless and uncritical acceptance of CT hogwash'. Assuming you mean the former, as it is your claim that the MSM is biased against, shall we say, alternative, theories, it seems only reasonable that you have actually read these articles and come to some conclusions on this.
Care to share them, just to prove that this isn't just prejudiced assumption? Bear in mind that no outlet in an independent press is under any obligation to report made-up paranoia as fact. A balanced article can still come out in favour of the common narrative.




Strong words. On what are you basing these slurs? Please quote my dishonest posts, and/or those in which I oppose truth and justice, or retract and apologise.
Bumped again for Manifesto.
Accusing someone of dishonesty and an opposition to truth and justice isn't something you can just throw out without consequences. This is the real world, Manifesto, not your bedroom. This is the adult world.
Now, be a big, brave boy, stop running away and either back up your accusation or retract it. This is what grown-ups do.
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Old 27th June 2018, 01:21 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
https://listverse.com/2015/10/16/10-...s-of-hypnosis/For mine, this has all the hallmarks of a BS story. I have highlighted the really dubious bits..
This may be "BS" situation but it did happen.

Quote:
*1: No way can a person be an unwilling participant in hyponosis.
This needs a reference. A better word may be "unwittingly" instead of "unwilling".

Quote:
*2: It is not possible to hypnotise a person to have a skill they did not have previously. If it were possible, every weekend bogey golf hacker could be hypnotized into being a Major winner, every weekend gun enthusiast could be hypnotized into being an Olympic sharpshooter.
He did not learn how to shoot under hypnotism; he ended up being a better shot. This could be due to a number of factors with one of them possibly being he was not nervous due to his being under the influence. I do not the reasons for his better marksmanship but it is a matter of record that he was observed to be a better shot... after being hypnotized.

So, now that there is proof that an individual can shoot while under hypnosis; the claim (of hypnosis) by manifesto has a precedent.
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Old 27th June 2018, 04:21 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
This may be "BS" situation but it did happen.
Did it, or was it just a story that McDonald cooked up that a jury believed? This was the 1800s after all, and there were still people around who believed in witches! In the 1830s a prosecution for witchcraft was commenced against a man in Fentress County, Tennessee named Stout, based upon his alleged influence over the health of a young woman.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
This needs a reference. A better word may be "unwittingly" instead of "unwilling".
Derry Cooke, Certified hypnotherapist in private practice since 2015.

No. People can have their minds altered by force e.g ‘brainwashing’, indoctrination, but this is not hypnosis.

Hypnosis is a consent state which requires the hypnotic subject to give their attention to the hypnotist. Even the so-called shock inductions require a certain compliance before the response can be fired through the subject’s neurology.

Constant exposure to hypnotic recordings may have an influential effect similar to exposure to advertising. Whether it effects you or not will depend on whether you give it your attention.

As an analogy, consider the same scenario, only this time you are kidnapped, tied up and forced to listen to a genre of music you absolutely hate. How likely are you to ever become a raving fan of that style of music?


Originally Posted by No Other View Post
He did not learn how to shoot under hypnotism;
No-one was claiming this

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
he ended up being a better shot.
This is what was claimed, and it is not possible. A physical skill such as shooting, playing a sport, operating machinery etc cannot be improved through hypnosis. Hypnosis cannot turn you into a "Hail-Mary" throwing, highly accurate NFL starting quarterback even if you can already throw a football 50 yards.

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
This could be due to a number of factors with one of them possibly being he was not nervous due to his being under the influence. I do not the reasons for his better marksmanship but it is a matter of record that he was observed to be a better shot... after being hypnotized.
No, this has not been demonstrated, and it is not a matter of record. It was claimed, but not proven. Just because some hicktown jury accepted his story doesn't make it the truth... ever heard of Orenthal James Simpson?

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
So now that there is proof that an individual can shoot while under hypnosis; the claim (of hypnosis) by manifesto has a precedent.
No there is not. There is no proof that McDonald was actually hypnotised, only his claim that he was.

If you want to prove that it is possible, you are going to have to do a LOT better than referencing some newspaper reports from 120 years ago. You will need to conduct a proper controlled, scientific experiment, using circumstances that match as closely as possible to what you are trying to prove. e.g

1. Test to see if the premise, "A person may be hypnotised to kill an other individual", is valid.
a. Use a person who does not wish to participate.
b. Hypnotise them against their will.
c. Plant a post hypnotic suggestions (with a trigger) to go out shoot a particular person.
d. Test them under safe conditions to see if they do it.

2. Test to see if the premise, "A person may be hypnotised improve their skill and accuracy in shooting", is valid.
a. Use a person known to be a below average shooter.
b. Test them at a firing range.
c. Hypnotise them and plant a post hypnotic suggestion that they are a sharpshooter.
d. Bring them out of the hypnotic state and repeat the firing range test under identical conditions.

You will have to repeat both experiments several times with different subjects (to make sure its not a one-off). You will also need to repeat the test with controls such as test subjects who are willing, or who are already good shooters.

You should also perform some sort of double-blind test e.g.

a. Use subjects to whom you fully explain before hand what you are going to ask them to do.
b. Use subjects to whom you do not explain the test at all.
c. Use subjects to whom you lie about what you are going to ask them to do.

Only when I see proper study something like what I have explained above, will I accept it is possible to hypnotise an unwilling person to shoot someone, or to use hypnosis to turn someone with a poor physical skill into someone who is a expert in that skill.

And its important to remember that the technique (incorrectly) known as brainwashing, is not the same as hypnosis. It may well be possible to condition someone to kill, but is a process that has to be carried out intensively over a long period of time. For Sirhan Sirhan to be the subject of a mind control, you would have to prove that this was done, and it would almost certainly involve large tracts of time - months on end, where no-one would know his whereabouts. Sirhan Sirhan was a regular attendee at meetings of his Rosicrucian branch for two years leading up to the assassination, and prior to that, at different times, he had been Baptist and a Seventh Day Adventist; also a regular attendee at church. Its difficult to see how he could have gone missing for the lengths of time necessary to do some sort of "Jason Bourne" style conditioning to turn him into an assassin.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 27th June 2018 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 27th June 2018, 09:29 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
He did not learn how to shoot under hypnotism; he ended up being a better shot. This could be due to a number of factors with one of them possibly being he was not nervous due to his being under the influence. I do not the reasons for his better marksmanship but it is a matter of record that he was observed to be a better shot... after being hypnotized.

So, now that there is proof that an individual can shoot while under hypnosis; the claim (of hypnosis) by manifesto has a precedent.
Wade Boggs had to have a helping of fried chicken before a game.

Jason Giambi wore a gold thong to break a slump

Justin Verlander at Taco Bell before he pitched.

Moises Alou urinated on his hands before each game to help his grip.

I don't think hypnosis is why a guy becomes a better shot.
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:45 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post

He did not learn how to shoot under hypnotism; he ended up being a better shot. This could be due to a number of factors with one of them possibly being he was not nervous due to his being under the influence. I do not the reasons for his better marksmanship but it is a matter of record that he was observed to be a better shot... after being hypnotized.

So, now that there is proof that an individual can shoot while under hypnosis; the claim (of hypnosis) by manifesto has a precedent.
If this was the case, surely every army in the world would be using this in their training?
I am by no means a military man, but, AFAIK, this is not happening. This would suggest that there is little or no truth in this claim.
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:00 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
[indent]- Both the Pentagon and the CIA had ongoing multi million dollar mind control programs involving hundreds of institutions and thousands of participants and with the explicit aim to learn how to program unwitting assassins and patsies to assassins. Including assassination of domestic officials.
All of this conspiracy guff assumes that the CIA and the Pentagon are great monolithic blocks, in which everyone is either in complete agreement about everything, or is too scared to speak up.
However, in the real world, from My Lai to Manning, we know that this just isn't true. I doubt there is any organisation anywhere which displays the kind of behaviour assumed by the Manifestos of this world. People disagree all the time, about goals, strategies and methods. I seriously doubt that every single employee of the CIA wanted the Kennedys dead, or that the entire upper cadre of management were happy to either plot and carry out the assassination of prominent Americans, or to have at least a hunch that their co-workers might have been responsible and yet stay silent.
This is, IMHO, a simplistic, cartoonish world view.

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
As I said, keep exposing yourselfs for who your really are. We are observing, watching, learning and waiting.
I missed this the first time round. What the chuff is all this about?
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Old 28th June 2018, 04:44 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Hey we convicted some people of witchcraft in the past too. Surely that remains a possibility with the RFK case, that Sirhan was acting under a witch’s spell.
So, you are claiming that hypnosis and coersive persuasion have as little scientific support as witchcraft?

Really?
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Old 28th June 2018, 04:58 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
So, you are claiming that hypnosis and coersive persuasion have as little scientific support as witchcraft?

Really?
So you are claiming that hypnosis and coercive persuasion are the same thing

Really?
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Old 28th June 2018, 04:59 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
All of this conspiracy guff assumes that the CIA and the Pentagon are great monolithic blocks, in which everyone is either in complete agreement about everything, or is too scared to speak up.
However, in the real world, from My Lai to Manning, we know that this just isn't true. I doubt there is any organisation anywhere which displays the kind of behaviour assumed by the Manifestos of this world. People disagree all the time, about goals, strategies and methods. I seriously doubt that every single employee of the CIA wanted the Kennedys dead, or that the entire upper cadre of management were happy to either plot and carry out the assassination of prominent Americans, or to have at least a hunch that their co-workers might have been responsible and yet stay silent.
This is, IMHO, a simplistic, cartoonish world view.
The only simplistic and cartoonish are your grose misrepresentation of the arguments for Sirhan being the subject of coerced mind control. If I sometimes simplify the discussion with ”CIA”, it doesn’t mean that the whole of CIA was in on it or that only formal employees was part in it. More often it is short of ’elements within the US Intel community where the CIA is the chief institution, the top of the food chain’.

To state all this everytime would be close to insanely cumbersome, so I’m shortening it to a simple ”CIA” and expect requests for clearifications if needed.

When it comes to the CIA there is also clear evidence of at least three mind control programs, BLUebird, ARTichoke and MKUltra, reporting successful experiments with subjects that completely against their moral convictions was turned in to unwitting assassins (shooting blanks) and who did not remember anything of it afterwards.

And, that targeting of American officials was on the table.

Quote:
I missed this the first time round. What the chuff is all this about?
Yes, you tell me.
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Old 28th June 2018, 05:00 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So you are claiming that hypnosis and coercive persuasion are the same thing

Really?
No. Hence the ”and”.
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Old 28th June 2018, 05:48 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
The only simplistic and cartoonish are your grose misrepresentation of the arguments for Sirhan being the subject of coerced mind control. If I sometimes simplify the discussion with ”CIA”, it doesn’t mean that the whole of CIA was in on it or that only formal employees was part in it. More often it is short of ’elements within the US Intel community where the CIA is the chief institution, the top of the food chain’.

To state all this everytime would be close to insanely cumbersome, so I’m shortening it to a simple ”CIA” and expect requests for clearifications if needed.

When it comes to the CIA there is also clear evidence of at least three mind control programs, BLUebird, ARTichoke and MKUltra, reporting successful experiments with subjects that completely against their moral convictions was turned in to unwitting assassins (shooting blanks) and who did not remember anything of it afterwards.

And, that targeting of American officials was on the table.

Yes, you tell me.
Provide evidence for this bare assumption.
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Old 28th June 2018, 06:00 AM   #376
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A short summary on operation artichoke for your amusement can be found here. The CIA was basically going to drug a heavy drinker and encourage him to kill someone while under the influence.
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Old 28th June 2018, 08:24 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
A short summary on operation artichoke for your amusement can be found here. The CIA was basically going to drug a heavy drinker and encourage him to kill someone while under the influence.
This was an aborted plan WITHIN the project, not THE project.

Morse Allen, chief of CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE wrote this in an internal memo, 1954:
”On Wednesday, 10 February 1954, hypnotic experimentation and research work was continued in Building 13 .*.*. the work proceeded as follows:

1.**A posthypnotic of the night before (pointed finger, you will sleep) was enacted. Misses [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] immediately progressed to a deep hypnotic state with no further suggestion. This was to test whether the mere carrying out of the posthypnotic would produce the state of hypnosis desired. Needless to say, it did.

2.**Miss [REDACTED] was then instructed (having previously expressed a fear of firearms in any fashion) that she would use every method at her disposal to awaken Miss [REDACTED] (now in a deep hypnotic sleep) and failing to do this, she would pick up a pistol nearby and fire it at Miss [REDACTED]. She was instructed that her rage would be so great that she would not hesitate to “kill” [REDACTED] for failing to awaken. “Miss [REDACTED] carried out these suggestions to the letter, including firing the (unloaded pneumatic pistol) gun at [REDACTED] and then proceeding to fall into a deep sleep. “After proper suggestions were made, both were awakened and expressed complete amnesia for the entire sequence. [REDACTED] was again handed the gun, which she refused (in her awakened state) to pick up or accept from the operator. She expressed absolute denial that the foregoing sequence had happened.”


- “Hypnotic Experiment and Research”; CIA internal memo, February 10, 1954.
It shows that they had experimental confirmation on the prospect of through hypnosis create an unwitting Manchurian candidate as early as 1954, almost 14 year before the assassination of RFK.

Add to that coersive techniques and drugs and the idea of Sirhan being programmed is perfectly reasonable.

The question is if he was programmed to act as he did, not if it was possible.

It clearly was and still is.
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:19 PM   #378
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Anyway, RFK Jr. isn't exactly credible on...well a lot of things.
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:30 PM   #379
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Their are problems with your theory that Sirhan Sirhan could have simply been hypnotised to shoot RFK

1. With simple hypnosis, its not just a matter of grabbing some poor mook off the street and hypnotising him to do the deed. He has to WANT to do it in the first place. Hypnotising someone requires their full cooperation; a person cannot be hypnotised against their will.

2. With persuasive coercion, the subject must be conditioned, and that takes a lot more than just a couple of quick sessions. It takes a long time and a lot of work, during which time the subject will be isolated from the outside world. You can't condition someone on weekends and then send him back to his work as a stable boy on Monday.

3. It is not enough to speculate that this could have happened. You must prove that Sirhan Sirhan WAS persuasively coerced using mind control techniques, and to do so, you will need to find and provide documentary evidence that this actually happened. You will also have to prove that Sirhan Sirhan was absent from his work place and his social life for large tracts of time which would be unaccounted for by any other means. As I said earlier, he was a member of the Ancient Mystical Order of the Rose Cross, the Rosicrucians, and a regular attendee at their meetings.

Absent this, your ideas are nothing more than unfounded idle speculation.
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Old 28th June 2018, 01:58 PM   #380
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*raises hand* Question.

Why would the CIA/FBI/hawkish generals or whomever risk killing a President who, like all Presidents, they (well, their superiors) ultimately report to - let alone, said President's brother (who was a sitting US Senator at the time of his assassination, and had previously been his brother's Attorney General and closest advisor)? Do you really think they're THAT stupid?

It's one thing for members of the public to believe such conspiracy theories without evidence. Most people aren't trained in critical thinking - let alone, expertise on matters relating to intelligence agencies, the military, law enforcement, or what have you. But if there were actual, credible evidence of such a conspiracy, with identifiable likely suspects...do you honestly believe that it would just go unnoticed by thousands (more likely, millions) of politicians and other government officials over a half-century - let alone, the US media? Are you kidding me?!

Angry, disaffected types with psychological..."issues" and some sort of political grievance - however incoherent - are far more likely to seriously consider such crimes, and are far more likely to be successful, since the US government isn't very good at looking for needles in a haystack compared to, say, predicting what a hostile major nation-state will do (and they're not even very good at that!).This is especially true when the "needles" (or "lone wolves") are US citizens themselves, or at the very least, are spending a lot of time on US soil. The US government does not have as much latitude in monitoring domestic threats compared to foreign ones, and it's not solely for legal reasons (think of all of the differently structured, yet both conflicting and overlapping in their mission federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies and jurisdictions within the country - there are TONS of agencies and sub-agencies with byzantine and maddeningly bureaucratic (in the worst way) INTERNAL structures; add in relations with other agencies, and things get very messy real quick...).

Note that most terrorist attacks, school shootings, hate crimes, or just violent crime and crimes in general are carried out by like, a half-dozen people at most - the majority of them are carried out by one individual. If the national security agencies and law enforcement (at all levels) can't prevent the thousands upon thousands of individuals who "slip through the cracks" and carry out some violent thing, then is it REALLY a big stretch to think that a motivated, nothing-to-lose "lone nut" can kill a President riding past a bunch of tall buildings in an exposed convertible in broad daylight, or a presidential candidate who's willingly being mobbed by scores of people in a small, crowded room?

/rant

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Old 28th June 2018, 02:47 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Their are problems with your theory that Sirhan Sirhan could have simply been hypnotised to shoot RFK

1. With simple hypnosis, its not just a matter of grabbing some poor mook off the street and hypnotising him to do the deed. He has to WANT to do it in the first place.
No. The CIA female secretary refered to in Morse Allens memo, would not even tuch the gun when awake and certainly not kill her friend with it.

Under hypnosis, she did. And did not remember that she did.

Quote:
Hypnotising someone requires their full cooperation; a person cannot be hypnotised against their will.
Define ”will”. There are ways around these issues and Sirhan was certainly in to hypnosis and ’mystic’ states since his sister died from leukemia. That is why he joined the Rosecrusians and practiced self hypnosis.

Quote:
2. With persuasive coercion, the subject must be conditioned, and that takes a lot more than just a couple of quick sessions. It takes a long time and a lot of work, during which time the subject will be isolated from the outside world. You can't condition someone on weekends and then send him back to his work as a stable boy on Monday.
The two CIA secretaries was not coerced, they volunteered and was not even decieved to take part in the experiment.

One of them ’assassinated’ her friend anyway.

Quote:
3. It is not enough to speculate that this could have happened.
Yes it is, if the argument is that this couldn’t possible have happened.

Well, according to CIA’s chief of Project ARTICHOKE, Morse Allen, it clearly was possible. They did it in experiments.

Quote:
You must prove that Sirhan Sirhan WAS persuasively coerced using mind control techniques, and to do so, you will need to find and provide documentary evidence that this actually happened. You will also have to prove that Sirhan Sirhan was absent from his work place and his social life for large tracts of time which would be unaccounted for by any other means. As I said earlier, he was a member of the Ancient Mystical Order of the Rose Cross, the Rosicrucians, and a regular attendee at their meetings.

Absent this, your ideas are nothing more than unfounded idle speculation.
As I said, the issue is not if it could have happened, it clearly could, the issue is if it happened to Sirhan when he was shooting at RFK in the Pantry.

1. Was it within CIA’s capacity to create mind controlled assassins/patsies in assassinations of American officials, 1968?

Yes, it clearly was.

2. Was Sirhan a victim of mind control when shooting at RFK, 1968?

Yes, the evidence of this are overwhelming.
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:03 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
*raises hand* Question.

Why would the CIA/FBI/hawkish generals or whomever risk killing a President who, like all Presidents, they (well, their superiors) ultimately report to - let alone, said President's brother (who was a sitting US Senator at the time of his assassination, and had previously been his brother's Attorney General and closest advisor)? Do you really think they're THAT stupid?
Yes.

Quote:
It's one thing for members of the public to believe such conspiracy theories without evidence. Most people aren't trained in critical thinking - let alone, expertise on matters relating to intelligence agencies, the military, law enforcement, or what have you. But if there were actual, credible evidence of such a conspiracy, with identifiable likely suspects...do you honestly believe that it would just go unnoticed by thousands (more likely, millions) of politicians and other government officials over a half-century - let alone, the US media? Are you kidding me?!
Well, it is not unnoticed and yes I’ll take issue with your belief in how power works in the US.

Quote:
Angry, disaffected types with psychological..."issues" and some sort of political grievance - however incoherent - are far more likely to seriously consider such crimes, and are far more likely to be successful, since the US government isn't very good at looking for needles in a haystack compared to, say, predicting what a hostile major nation-state will do (and they're not even very good at that!).This is especially true when the "needles" (or "lone wolves") are US citizens themselves, or at the very least, are spending a lot of time on US soil. The US government does not have as much latitude in monitoring domestic threats compared to foreign ones, and it's not solely for legal reasons (think of all of the differently structured, yet both conflicting and overlapping in their mission federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies and jurisdictions within the country - there are TONS of agencies and sub-agencies with byzantine and maddeningly bureaucratic (in the worst way) INTERNAL structures; add in relations with other agencies, and things get very messy real quick...).
The ’Lone Nut’ is a perfect vehicle for political assassinations since no-one is blamed when it happens. As you say, who can be blamed for a ”needle in a haystack”?

Heard of the ancient biblical scape goat? The sacrificial lamb?

Quote:
Note that most terrorist attacks, school shootings, hate crimes, or just violent crime and crimes in general are carried out by like, a half-dozen people at most - the majority of them are carried out by one individual. If the national security agencies and law enforcement (at all levels) can't prevent the thousands upon thousands of individuals who "slip through the cracks" and carry out some violent thing, then is it REALLY a big stretch to think that a motivated, nothing-to-lose "lone nut" can kill a President riding past a bunch of tall buildings in an exposed convertible in broad daylight, or a presidential candidate who's willingly being mobbed by scores of people in a small, crowded room?

/rant
No-one is saying that ’Lone Nuts’ can’t assassinate famous people. I’m saying that this wasn’t so in the case of RFK ... or MLK Jr. .... or JFK.

They were killed by very powerful people as state crimes against democracy.
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:08 PM   #383
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CIA documents on Artichoke:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00050005-3.pdf

This one is cool because it contains an article about a Ukrainian who killed a guy using a custom built, high-pressure squirt-gun filled with vaporized cyanide.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00010010-3.pdf

This one discusses the problems with the assassination plan on an operational level:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...0000140399.pdf

There are more, you can use the search engine. Doesn't sound like a successful enterprise.
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:13 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
As I said, the issue is not if it could have happened, it clearly could, the issue is if it happened to Sirhan when he was shooting at RFK in the Pantry.

1. Was it within CIA’s capacity to create mind controlled assassins/patsies in assassinations of American officials, 1968?

Yes, it clearly was.

.
No.

The CIA and KGB knew that the best way to motivate/influence people was cash. Few questions than mind-control, which really doesn't work.


Quote:
2. Was Sirhan a victim of mind control when shooting at RFK, 1968?

Yes, the evidence of this are overwhelming
Only in fantasy land. In the real world Sirhan planned the killing in advance, and did reconnaissance of the hotel. These are the actions of a killer, not someone acting against his will. AND if there was a conspiracy someone else would have cased the hotel, and directed Sirhan where to go.

You fail
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:36 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
No.

The CIA and KGB knew that the best way to motivate/influence people was cash. Few questions than mind-control, which really doesn't work.




Only in fantasy land. In the real world Sirhan planned the killing in advance, and did reconnaissance of the hotel. These are the actions of a killer, not someone acting against his will. AND if there was a conspiracy someone else would have cased the hotel, and directed Sirhan where to go.

You fail
So, chief of CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE, Morse Allen, is lying in his memo? That they succeded to hypnotize a female CIA secretary to assassinate her female co-worker in spite of her strong held moral convictions against weapons and killing human beings?

It wasn’t even coersion, just manipulation.

That some of the world leading researchers on hypnosis and mind control has stated that they are convinced that Sirhan was under some form of hypnotic mind control when shooting at RFK isn’t at all impressive according to you either?

You just state stuff and magically it’s just so, isn’t it?

Last edited by manifesto; 28th June 2018 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 28th June 2018, 03:43 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
CIA documents on Artichoke:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00050005-3.pdf

This one is cool because it contains an article about a Ukrainian who killed a guy using a custom built, high-pressure squirt-gun filled with vaporized cyanide.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00010010-3.pdf

This one discusses the problems with the assassination plan on an operational level:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...0000140399.pdf

There are more, you can use the search engine. Doesn't sound like a successful enterprise.
What’s behind your links?

Last time you ”linked” it was to a 300 plus pages Church Committee document refuting your statement that RFK had anything to do with assassination attempts on Fidel Castro.

Same here? Documents refuting your conviction that Sirhan could not and was not the victim of CIA hypnotic mind control when shooting at RFK?

Are you always doing this? Posting links to documents refuting your claims?

If so, why on earth are you doing that?
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Old 28th June 2018, 04:32 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
What’s behind your links?
I posted the links for the normal people who view this thread and might like to know more.

I have no expectations of you reading anything based on fact, or even conducting yourself in a way that indicates that you are intellectually honest.

You refer to one experiment out of many, and the fact that you're running with it exposes your lack of understanding of the scientific method. What happened in all of the other experiments? Why was this operation necessary if MK ULTRA was effective? Why were both terminated? Why did the CIA abandon mind-control? Why weren't successful experiments recreated on our Al Qaeda prisoners instead of water-boarding them? Where are the stories of KGB and FSB agents handing over thumbdrives packed with Russian state secrets to the CIA only to later have no memory of doing so ?

Why kill RFK and MLK if the CIA could control their minds instead, and take advantage of their popularity to advance whatever crazy agenda you claim they had?

Your logic fails Again
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Old 28th June 2018, 04:35 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
The two CIA secretaries was not coerced, they volunteered and was not even decieved to take part in the experiment.
Your own words rip the rug out from under your arguments.

You can be made to do almost anything whilst in a hypnotic state... but first you must be a willing participant in the hypnosis... a hypnotic state is a "consent state" of mind.

Where is your evidence that Sirhan Sirhan was a willing participant to being put into a hypnotic state by a member of the Alphabet Soup?
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Old 28th June 2018, 04:54 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
So, chief of CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE, Morse Allen, is lying in his memo? That they succeded to hypnotize a female CIA secretary to assassinate her female co-worker in spite of her strong held moral convictions against weapons and killing human beings?
One experiment. One

What happened in the others?


Quote:
It wasn’t even coersion, just manipulation.
Or just an excuse.

Quote:
That some of the world leading researchers on hypnosis and mind control has stated that they are convinced that Sirhan was under some form of hypnotic mind control when shooting at RFK isn’t at all impressive according to you either?
Name them all. Your track record with qualified experts is non-existent.

Quote:
You just state stuff and magically it’s just so, isn’t it?
Nope, I just utilize non-conspiracy sources to form an opinion.
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Old 28th June 2018, 05:16 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
That some of the world leading researchers on hypnosis and mind control has stated that they are convinced that Sirhan was under some form of hypnotic mind control when shooting at RFK isn’t at all impressive according to you either?
Lets have their names, and some of the research papers they have published and had peer-reviewed... oh wait! Of course, you got all this information from evidence CT frootloop sources.

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
You just state stuff and magically it’s just so, isn’t it?
What, you mean evidence-free assertions like "some of the world leading researchers on hypnosis and mind control has stated that they are convinced that Sirhan was under some form of hypnotic mind control"?

The technique you accuse Axxman300 of, is actually YOUR stock-in-trade, not his, or ours.
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Old 28th June 2018, 05:27 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Your own words rip the rug out from under your arguments.

You can be made to do almost anything whilst in a hypnotic state... but first you must be a willing participant in the hypnosis... a hypnotic state is a "consent state" of mind.

Where is your evidence that Sirhan Sirhan was a willing participant to being put into a hypnotic state by a member of the Alphabet Soup?
The argument was that no-one can be hypnotized to do stuff that are contrary to deeply held moral convictions. Well, not according to the CIA, no.

All of the expertise that have studied Sirhan in person and/or his case are convinced that he was doing the shooting under the influence of hypnotic mind control, that he is exeptionally easy to hypnotize and that he genuinly doesn’t remember the shooting and the time period before the event.

No-one told Sirhan that he would be hypnotized in order to be a patsy/diversion in an assassination of RFK. He was a manipulated/coerced victim not knowing what was done to him.

It took almost forty years before he finally accepted the very thought of him being an unwitting victim of mind control, beacause he doesn’t remember anything from the programming.

Well, that’s the point with hypnotic programming. The person doesn’t remember what has happened and certainly not if the memory blockage has been additionally reinforced by the controllers.

1. Yes, some individuals can be manipulated to do stuff against their (normal) will under the influence of hypnosis. In Sirhans case, he was shooting at targets at the range, when shooting at RFK. He was in ”range mode” induced by the girl in the polka-dot dress with a pinch in his shoulder as a ’cue’.

2. Yes, his so called confessions found in his note book was automatic writings also induced with a ’cue’, maybe from his short wave radio he was listening to every evening the months leading up to the event. Also this was experimented with in CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE with very positive results.

3. Yes, after falling from a horse Sirhan disappeard for a couple of weeks, with a completely changed personality when comming back home. Strange, since the doctor who treated him said that he just stitched his eyebrow and sent him home again an hour later. No brain damage.

4. The stable that hired Sirhan at the time of his accident was owned by associates to the Mafia Don, Moe Dalitz, a sworn enemy to the Kennedys going back to the Prohibition when he put out a contract on Joe Kennedy Sr. after a dispute over territory. RFK’s fight against Organized Crime as AG under JFK didn’t make this relationship warmer.

5. The cozy relationship between the CIA and Organized Crime when it came to assassinations was well established way back in the late fifties and nothing says that this was terminated 1968.

6. The security firm that ’protected’ RFK in the Ambassador was owned by another assassination celebrety, Robert Maheu, the CIA liaison to Organized Crime in their joint effort to assassinate Fidel Castro.

Shall or should I continue?
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Old 28th June 2018, 05:38 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
.. continue?
Please the unintended comedy is magnificent....lol

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Old 28th June 2018, 06:12 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
The argument was that no-one can be hypnotized to do stuff that are contrary to deeply held moral convictions. Well, not according to the CIA, no.
I fully acknowledge that a volunteer who gives themselves over to a hypnotist willingly can be made to do things that they wouldn't normally or willingly do when not in a hypnotic state. You don't need MKUltra or ARTIchoke for this; you can see it amply demonstrated by any two-bit stage hypnotist.... people eating raw onions because they are convinced it is an apple, people kissing complete strangers etc.

However, this was not the claim. The claim (made by NoOther) is that a person such as Sirhan Sirhan could be forcibly hypnotised against his will. So far, no evidence that this is possible has been provided other than some obscure claim from the 1890's about someone who used forced hypnosis as (IMO bogus) a defence in a murder trial.

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
All of the expertise that have studied Sirhan in person and/or his case are convinced that he was doing the shooting under the influence of hypnotic mind control, that he is exeptionally easy to hypnotize and that he genuinly doesn’t remember the shooting and the time period before the event.

No-one told Sirhan that he would be hypnotized in order to be a patsy/diversion in an assassination of RFK. He was a manipulated/coerced victim not knowing what was done to him.

It took almost forty years before he finally accepted the very thought of him being an unwitting victim of mind control, beacause he doesn’t remember anything from the programming.

Well, that’s the point with hypnotic programming. The person doesn’t remember what has happened and certainly not if the memory blockage has been additionally reinforced by the controllers.

1. Yes, some individuals can be manipulated to do stuff against their (normal) will under the influence of hypnosis. In Sirhans case, he was shooting at targets at the range, when shooting at RFK. He was in ”range mode” induced by the girl in the polka-dot dress with a pinch in his shoulder as a ’cue’.

2. Yes, his so called confessions found in his note book was automatic writings also induced with a ’cue’, maybe from his short wave radio he was listening to every evening the months leading up to the event. Also this was experimented with in CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE with very positive results.

3. Yes, after falling from a horse Sirhan disappeard for a couple of weeks, with a completely changed personality when comming back home. Strange, since the doctor who treated him said that he just stitched his eyebrow and sent him home again an hour later. No brain damage.

4. The stable that hired Sirhan at the time of his accident was owned by associates to the Mafia Don, Moe Dalitz, a sworn enemy to the Kennedys going back to the Prohibition when he put out a contract on Joe Kennedy Sr. after a dispute over territory. RFK’s fight against Organized Crime as AG under JFK didn’t make this relationship warmer.

5. The cozy relationship between the CIA and Organized Crime when it came to assassinations was well established way back in the late fifties and nothing says that this was terminated 1968.

6. The security firm that ’protected’ RFK in the Ambassador was owned by another assassination celebrety, Robert Maheu, the CIA liaison to Organized Crime in their joint effort to assassinate Fidel Castro.
Pure jibber-jabber

Where are the names and the peer reviewed research papers of these alleged people with "all of the expertise that have studied Sirhan in person"

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Shall or should I continue?
Don't bother if you are just going to continue to tout your own opinion or the opinions expressed on frootloopy CT site, as a substitute for actual evidence.

If you can't come up with some names and the peer reviewed research papers of these alleged experts, I'm not interested.
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Old 28th June 2018, 06:19 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I posted the links for the normal people who view this thread and might like to know more.
Is it anything behind the links that refutes the content in the memo from Morse Allen? If so, what? If not, why are you posting them?

Quote:
I have no expectations of you reading anything based on fact, or even conducting yourself in a way that indicates that you are intellectually honest.
I’m posting proof of CIA’s successful experiments in creating unwitting assassins through hypno programming.

Why is this not ”intellectually honest”? Is it a fraudulent document?

Quote:
You refer to one experiment out of many,
Well, since Helms and Angletons illegal destruction of almost ALL documents pertaining to CIA’s illegal mind control projects, we are lucky to have some small pieces left at all, aren’t we? There is more, but lets stay with this memo just for a little bit longer.

Yes, the CIA succeded to create unwitting assassins in their effort to eliminate among others, American officials (i.e. Senators, etc) if deemed prudent.

Let it sink in. Ponder it.

Quote:
and the fact that you're running with it exposes your lack of understanding of the scientific method.
Wow. Are Allen lying in the memo? Is it fraudulent?

Quote:
What happened in all of the other experiments? Why was this operation necessary if MK ULTRA was effective?
MKUltra replaced and expanded Project ARTICHOKE.

Quote:
Why were both terminated?
ARTICHOKE was replaced with MKUltra which was allegedly terminated when the CIA came under scrutiny from the Congress in the mid seventies. How do you know that this effort didn’t continue under another name, maybe behind a corporate front or transfered to a different Intel organization?

I belive that ca 70% of CIA’s work today is outsourced to the private sector. Very convenient isn’t it?

Quote:
Why did the CIA abandon mind-control?
Did they?

Quote:
Why weren't successful experiments recreated on our Al Qaeda prisoners instead of water-boarding them?
Because the water-boarding had a completely different purpose than finding out the truth. It was for public consumption. Inside and outside the US.

Quote:
Where are the stories of KGB and FSB agents handing over thumbdrives packed with Russian state secrets to the CIA only to later have no memory of doing so ?
IF a hypno programmed agent is used in any capacity it is almost impossible to know. I believe the method/s are very carefully used in order not to expose it to the wider public too much. The very idea of hypno programmed agents running around could have unwanted effects on the public opinion leading to legitimate demands of terminating the organization that thrives on using it.

Quote:
Why kill RFK and MLK if the CIA could control their minds instead,
There are side effects of hypno programming easy to detect if the person is observered in a normal context. Wide pupills, incoherent ramblings, etc, and the violent assassinations had a reason in itself. To gently inform the people of the limits of democracy. Pedagogically.

Psychological warfare.

Quote:
and take advantage of their popularity to advance whatever crazy agenda you claim they had?
Well, if the genocidal war in Vietnam and its continuance was the chief reason, they certainly succeeded, wouldn’t you say?

How much did it cost in dollars? Who benefitted from these costs?

Quote:
Your logic fails Again
It’s like staring down a black hole of nothingness.
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Old 28th June 2018, 06:28 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post



I’m posting proof of CIA’s successful experiments in creating unwitting assassins through hypno programming.

...........



Yes, the CIA succeded to create unwitting assassins

....



.....

a hypno programmed agent


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Old 28th June 2018, 06:39 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Yes, we know who you are, but you forgot to answer:http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=377
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Old 28th June 2018, 07:19 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
He told Alvin Clark that he planned to shoot RFK. His diary was full of anti-RFK ranting.

He was a Palestinian Christian, and his stated reason for killing RFK was the Senator's support for the sale of 50 fighter-bombers to Israel.
The support for the bombers was in the news may 20th, the ”RFK must die!” in his note book in may 18th, two days before that.

How come?
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Old 28th June 2018, 08:17 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
The support for the bombers was in the news may 20th, the ”RFK must die!” in his note book in may 18th, two days before that.

How come?
Source?
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Old 28th June 2018, 08:52 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
I’m posting proof
YOU ARE?

Ah no Manifesto you aren't posting 'proof' you are posting stuff you and others have made up.

There is a difference. Someday hopefully you will understand that.
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Old 28th June 2018, 08:55 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Is it anything behind the links that refutes the content in the memo from Morse Allen? If so, what? If not, why are you posting them?
Why am I posting links to factual information?

You have not posted a link to the Allen memo.


Quote:
I’m posting proof of CIA’s successful experiments in creating unwitting assassins through hypno programming.
No. You refer to one experiment, not a body of successful work.

Quote:
Why is this not ”intellectually honest”? Is it a fraudulent document?
You have yet to post a link to it.

Quote:
Well, since Helms and Angletons illegal destruction of almost ALL documents pertaining to CIA’s illegal mind control projects, we are lucky to have some small pieces left at all, aren’t we? There is more, but lets stay with this memo just for a little bit longer.
You fail again This first CIA document I linked to was the 1977 inventory of 18 boxes containing all of Artichoke's files. I'll post it again:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00050005-3.pdf

And there are 20,000 documents for MKUltra.

Quote:
Yes, the CIA succeded to create unwitting assassins in their effort to eliminate among others, American officials (i.e. Senators, etc) if deemed prudent.
Source? Targets?

Quote:
Wow. Are Allen lying in the memo? Is it fraudulent?
You have not posted a link, does it exist?

Quote:
MKUltra replaced and expanded Project ARTICHOKE.
No. MKUltra was a second attempt at exploring mind control, based only on what the CIA thought had been successful Soviet mind-control efforts.

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ARTICHOKE was replaced with MKUltra which was allegedly terminated when the CIA came under scrutiny from the Congress in the mid seventies. How do you know that this effort didn’t continue under another name, maybe behind a corporate front or transfered to a different Intel organization?
MKULTRA ended in 1967, 51 years ago. The CIA cannot maintain secrets for large, controversial projects for very long.

Which US intelligence agency would waste money on a failed concept? The NSA is 95% technical, meaning their focus is electronic intercept. The NRO is satellites, remote sensors, remote listening devices, and exotic devices for espionage. The FBI cannot use drugs to interrogate suspects under the Constitution, and has been extremely successful by just talking people into becoming CI's for them using the threat of long prison sentences.

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I belive that ca 70% of CIA’s work today is outsourced to the private sector. Very convenient isn’t it?
Actually the outsourcing has been a disaster.

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Because the water-boarding had a completely different purpose than finding out the truth. It was for public consumption. Inside and outside the US.
So you believe at the private contractors who were working for the CIA conducted torture at BLACK SITES in SECRET solely for later public consumption?

Meanwhile, the CIA supposedly had successfully controlled people's minds with drugs to get them to do their bidding, and yet didn't feel the need to use any of these techniques on Al Qaeda prisoners? Artichoke and MKUltra were ultimately looking for truth serums, you claim they were successful, but they never used them on the US's most important prisoners?

You also suggest that the CIA has a functional mind-control capability, and yet we never used it on Al Qaeda prisoners so we could release them, and they could kill Al Qaeda leadership?

If mind-control worked, why does the United States have any enemies at all?

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IF a hypno programmed agent is used in any capacity it is almost impossible to know. I believe the method/s are very carefully used in order not to expose it to the wider public too much. The very idea of hypno programmed agents running around could have unwanted effects on the public opinion leading to legitimate demands of terminating the organization that thrives on using it.
And yet there is no evidence of the CIA programming anybody.

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There are side effects of hypno programming easy to detect if the person is observered in a normal context. Wide pupills, incoherent ramblings, etc, and the violent assassinations had a reason in itself. To gently inform the people of the limits of democracy. Pedagogically.
You just said a hypno programmed agent is impossible to detect. Make up your mind.

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Well, if the genocidal war in Vietnam and its continuance was the chief reason, they certainly succeeded, wouldn’t you say
The CIA advised Kennedy and Johnson not to go into Vietnam. So much for mind control.


If the CIA could control people against their will, why didn't they control RFK and MLK? This stuff either works or it doesn't.
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Last edited by Axxman300; 28th June 2018 at 08:57 PM.
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