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Old 8th March 2015, 11:17 PM   #1
Checkmite
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Racist OU chapter banned by national organization

Sigma Alpha Epsilon has closed its chapter at University of Oklahoma after an anonymously-taken video was posted by a campus civil rights group, showing members of the fraternity on a bus singing a song about how "there will never be a (n-word) at SAE".

Short video clip here (not sure if this was the original or a repost). The racist terminology is pretty loud and clear, be warned. The video is very short but was taken by someone in the midst of all the students, possibly a member of SAE.

In addition to the fraternity's dissolution, the univesity president has suggested that the students involved may face additional discipline from the school.
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Old 8th March 2015, 11:21 PM   #2
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Good.
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Old 8th March 2015, 11:24 PM   #3
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If they shut them down it becomes true.
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Old 8th March 2015, 11:28 PM   #4
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Now that there won't be anybody at SAE at all, it's no longer a racism problem.
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Old 9th March 2015, 12:36 AM   #5
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That can't be right, we keep hearing about the US right to freedom of speech.....

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Old 9th March 2015, 12:39 AM   #6
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What are you talking about? Every single student in that video is completely free to sing the song again if they so choose. Nobody's being arrested or thrown in jail.
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Old 9th March 2015, 01:26 AM   #7
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Once again for those who still haven't wrapped their head around this: Freedom of speech means the government can't lock you up for saying what you want to say. It does not prevent the people in charge of a private organization that you belong to from deciding your speech makes you a tosser whom they don't want around any more.
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Old 9th March 2015, 01:35 AM   #8
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He knows that but it is an easy chance to have a swing at the USA
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Old 9th March 2015, 01:38 AM   #9
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Freedom of speech means that the government can't arrest you or impose another legal sanction for unpopular speech. A national fraternity and a university are other matters.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from all social or civil consequences. It just means that it isn't a criminal matter (with a few well known exceptions such as making threats, etc.).
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Old 9th March 2015, 01:58 AM   #10
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nm

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Old 9th March 2015, 02:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Freedom of speech means that the government can't arrest you or impose another legal sanction for unpopular speech. A national fraternity and a university are other matters.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from all social or civil consequences. It just means that it isn't a criminal matter (with a few well known exceptions such as making threats, etc.).
That's a piece of the US Constitution that I really envy.
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Old 9th March 2015, 03:01 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
Once again for those who still haven't wrapped their head around this: Freedom of speech means the government can't lock you up for saying what you want to say. It does not prevent the people in charge of a private organization that you belong to from deciding your speech makes you a tosser whom they don't want around any more.
Hate to be argumentative, but actually the government can lock you up for saying what you want to say (write, etc.) if it violates a law (threatening the President for example). They can't arrest you prior to your actually saying it, but as soon as you do - jail!!! Otherwise, pretty much correct.......
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Old 9th March 2015, 04:36 AM   #13
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Free Speech.
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Old 9th March 2015, 05:07 AM   #14
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They had probably been singing this since the frat house was first formed. That is, a "tradition". And "traditions" are good by definition, n'cest pas?
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Old 9th March 2015, 05:24 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dani View Post
That's a piece of the US Constitution that I really envy.

I must admit I don't, it's too limiting, I'd rather have the ECHR concept in which freedom of speech is protected beyond the narrow USA scope.
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Old 9th March 2015, 05:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
Once again for those who still haven't wrapped their head around this: Freedom of speech means the government can't lock you up for saying what you want to say.
No, freedom of speech means freedom of speech. I don't know why people keep interpreting "freedom of speech" to mean "the first amendment to the United States Constitution".

That said, I'm glad SAE was shut down.
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Old 9th March 2015, 05:44 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
No, freedom of speech means freedom of speech. I don't know why people keep interpreting "freedom of speech" to mean "the first amendment to the United States Constitution".

...snip..
Think it's just a familiarity thing, we often accept what we are brought up with uncritically.
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Old 9th March 2015, 06:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I must admit I don't, it's too limiting, I'd rather have the ECHR concept in which freedom of speech is protected beyond the narrow USA scope.
Then why are there laws against holocaust denial in so many European countries?
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Old 9th March 2015, 06:07 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Then why are there laws against holocaust denial in so many European countries?
It seems a very strange question to ask me as it does not seem to follow from what I posted? But I would have thought that the answer was quite obvious - that is the laws those countries have chosen to implement?
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Old 9th March 2015, 06:09 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Sigma Alpha Epsilon has closed its chapter at University of Oklahoma after an anonymously-taken video was posted by a campus civil rights group, showing members of the fraternity on a bus singing a song about how "there will never be a (n-word) at SAE".

Short video clip here (not sure if this was the original or a repost). The racist terminology is pretty loud and clear, be warned. The video is very short but was taken by someone in the midst of all the students, possibly a member of SAE.

In addition to the fraternity's dissolution, the univesity president has suggested that the students involved may face additional discipline from the school.
Once again people forget or ignore the fact that at any time and any place there is usually at least one person with a recording device. And people being people, they can't help but 'share' the fun that was had. Even amongst a tight group like a frat, there is often one disgruntled enough or dumb enough to post incriminating recordings.
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Old 9th March 2015, 06:12 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Then why are there laws against holocaust denial in so many European countries?

I would add that UK libel laws are a significant impingement of freedom of speech. In the US people have somewhat more latitude in their speech before coming under the threat of a lawsuit.
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Old 9th March 2015, 06:41 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
No, freedom of speech means freedom of speech. I don't know why people keep interpreting "freedom of speech" to mean "the first amendment to the United States Constitution".
Post in question specifically invoked "the US right to freedom of speech", which is a reference to said amendment of said constitution.
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Old 9th March 2015, 06:46 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It seems a very strange question to ask me as it does not seem to follow from what I posted? But I would have thought that the answer was quite obvious - that is the laws those countries have chosen to implement?
Hey, you were the one who described First Amendment freedom of speech as being "too limiting" and "narrow".
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Old 9th March 2015, 07:01 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Then why are there laws against holocaust denial in so many European countries?
Because it is a historic fact and the the countries involved with enacting laws against it's denial are the ones that suffered at the hands of the Nazis who enacted the holocaust and don't want lies and falsehoods spread by Nazis who want to wipe it from history?
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Old 9th March 2015, 07:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because it is a historic fact and the the countries involved with enacting laws against it's denial are the ones that suffered at the hands of the Nazis who enacted the holocaust and don't want lies and falsehoods spread by Nazis who want to wipe it from history?
Errrr...freedom of speech–as those who are claiming the First Amendment is "too limiting" and "narrow"seem to be implicitly arguing–does not depend solely on its truth or its content.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:18 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because it is a historic fact and the the countries involved with enacting laws against it's denial are the ones that suffered at the hands of the Nazis who enacted the holocaust and don't want lies and falsehoods spread by Nazis who want to wipe it from history?
You are free to say whatever you wish, so long as it is true? That's a really bad justification for a law!

The list of things that people in the US are free to say that are completely false:

1. There is a God.
2. There was a global flood.
3. Man co-existed with dinosaurs
4. Global warming is a hoax
5. Almost everything 9/11
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:20 AM   #27
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Well, at least the member who recorded and posted it can't get ostracized by the frat.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:40 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
You are free to say whatever you wish, so long as it is true? That's a really bad justification for a law!

The list of things that people in the US are free to say that are completely false:

1. There is a God.
2. There was a global flood.
3. Man co-existed with dinosaurs
4. Global warming is a hoax
5. Almost everything 9/11
You read only the first words of the post you are commenting on.
Quote:
Because it is a historic fact
I now invite you to read the rest.
Quote:
and the the countries involved with enacting laws against it's denial are the ones that suffered at the hands of the Nazis who enacted the holocaust and don't want lies and falsehoods spread by Nazis who want to wipe it from history
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I must admit I don't, it's too limiting, I'd rather have the ECHR concept in which freedom of speech is protected beyond the narrow USA scope.
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Then why are there laws against holocaust denial in so many European countries?
Darat may have phrased it a bit awkwardly, but the ECHR article 5 allows a few more exceptions to freedom of speech than the US First Amendment, something anyone with even passing familiarity with both concepts would know.

Laws against Holocaust denial are just a logical corollary to hate speech laws, and in fact, in various countries there are no special Holocaust denial laws but people are prosecuted for that under hate speech laws.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Once again people forget or ignore the fact that at any time and any place there is usually at least one person with a recording device. And people being people, they can't help but 'share' the fun that was had. Even amongst a tight group like a frat, there is often one disgruntled enough or dumb enough to post incriminating recordings.
And the most fun it is, of course, when someone posts it because they are actually proud of what they've been doing, and it then monumentally backfires. (I don't have the impression that happened here).
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:50 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Darat may have phrased it a bit awkwardly, but the ECHR article 5 allows a few more exceptions to freedom of speech than the US First Amendment, something anyone with even passing familiarity with both concepts would know.
If Article 5 allows more exceptions to free speech than the First Amendment doesn't that make the European approach to free speech more restrictive?

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Old 9th March 2015, 08:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I must admit I don't, it's too limiting, I'd rather have the ECHR concept in which freedom of speech is protected beyond the narrow USA scope.
How do you mean? I tried googling that but it didn't shed much light.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest over whose freedoms are better, just curious what are the differences as you see them.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:52 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Sigma Alpha Epsilon has closed its chapter at University of Oklahoma after an anonymously-taken video was posted by a campus civil rights group, showing members of the fraternity on a bus singing a song about how "there will never be a (n-word) at SAE".

Short video clip here (not sure if this was the original or a repost). The racist terminology is pretty loud and clear, be warned. The video is very short but was taken by someone in the midst of all the students, possibly a member of SAE.

In addition to the fraternity's dissolution, the univesity president has suggested that the students involved may face additional discipline from the school.
Wow!

One should expect that by now reasonably intelligent college students who happen to be in a fraternity would have learned to avoid the collection of such damming evidence when they so flagrantly violate the rules.

Tsk! Tsk!

I am sure that the SAE national leadership is quite shocked that incontrovertible evidence has surfaced which shows a few of their members actually doing something so terribly reprehensible.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:53 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Hey, you were the one who described First Amendment freedom of speech as being "too limiting" and "narrow".
And I still believe it is but you still haven't connected your questions to what I posted.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:54 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Errrr...freedom of speech–as those who are claiming the First Amendment is "too limiting" and "narrow"seem to be implicitly arguing–does not depend solely on its truth or its content.
One rarely adopts the royal we.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:56 AM   #36
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It's also my impression that this video was posted out of disapproval or a desire to expose rather than as an act of pride.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:56 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And I still believe it is but you still haven't connected your questions to what I posted.
ddt was able to understand what I was saying. You seem to being dodging the question.
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:56 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Darat may have phrased it a bit awkwardly, but the ECHR article 5 allows a few more exceptions to freedom of speech than the US First Amendment, something anyone with even passing familiarity with both concepts would know.

Laws against Holocaust denial are just a logical corollary to hate speech laws, and in fact, in various countries there are no special Holocaust denial laws but people are prosecuted for that under hate speech laws.
I think the various "holocaust denial" laws are in breach of the ECHR - but the courts disagree with me!
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Old 9th March 2015, 08:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
One rarely adopts the royal we.
Others have offered an implicit critique of the supposed US approach to free speech in this thread.
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Old 9th March 2015, 09:00 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
If Article 5 allows more exceptions to free speech than the First Amendment doesn't that make the European approach to free speech more restrictive?
No, it makes it different but since it prevents other organisations and people stifling my freedom of expression I maintain that makes the protection of freedom of expression wider than the USA's "first amendment" free speech which only deals with restrictions imposed by the government.
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