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14th April 2017, 12:22 PM | #81 |
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First, this is what Skeptic Ginger said;
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Second, your statement is deeply misleading. The British were largely responsible for generating the anti-Mossadegh sentiment after Iran nationalized their oil resources. It did not begin as an internal struggle. Absent the influence of Britain, there would have been no serious effort to depose Mossadegh. When Truman was in charge, the US offered broad support to Mossadegh. Eisenhower and the Republicans take over and Britain realizes that they have a nice paranoid, over-reacting toy to play with so they begin sponsoring pro-communist activism in Iran and linking it to Mossadegh. That's when our dumbasses get seriously involved. The Shah, as I said, wasn't our first choice, and, in fact, a General was installed after the second, successful coup on Mossadegh. That is far more than choosing sides. Britain and the US created and funded the opposition then picked the successor. None of this is controversial.
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Not unlike a certain leader of the most powerful Democracy on the planet who manages to hold the presidency while receiving 3 million fewer votes... |
14th April 2017, 12:25 PM | #82 |
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14th April 2017, 12:26 PM | #83 |
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14th April 2017, 12:32 PM | #84 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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14th April 2017, 12:34 PM | #85 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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14th April 2017, 12:36 PM | #86 |
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...Is this some semantic technicality? If so, fine. I'll know to stop arguing.
Absent US and British involvement, the Shah of Iran would not have been the sole political power center in the nation. He would have continued to be like the royal family in England with respect to the Prime Minister and Parliament. A phrase used throughout history when a more powerful nation ensures that an ally or puppet rules another is "installed in power." If you would like another word or phrase, please offer suggestions. |
14th April 2017, 12:44 PM | #87 |
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There is a difference between saying we installed a dictator and saying that we prevented him from being deposed. In both cases, you could say that the dictator wouldn't be there but for us, but the starting conditions are radically different for the two cases. Saying we installed the Shah is to lie about those starting conditions.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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14th April 2017, 12:46 PM | #88 |
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14th April 2017, 12:59 PM | #89 |
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Depends when you want to "start" things. And it ignores what power Mossadegh had gained, and how he had gained them. Mossadegh had become a de facto dictator by undemocratic means, seizing power that even the Shah had not had. It's more accurate to say we deposed a dictator than to say we installed one, since post-coup the Shah had nothing like the dictatorial powers that Mossadegh had claimed.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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14th April 2017, 01:10 PM | #90 |
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Oh god...
He became Prime Minister when Parliament voted for him 79-12. He tried to pass a bill to greatly expand suffrage in Iran. It was blocked by conservatives, which is why he called for elections - which he won (but, as I mentioned, pulled a little maneuver to make his margin larger). If everyone in Iran had been allowed to vote, he probably wouldn't have needed the strategy. Furthermore, the British had been flooding money into Iran for that election trying to buy off the military, religious leaders, the press, street gangs...Mossadegh called off the election due to this foreign interference (again, waiting until he had secured the necessary majority). Complaining about Mossadegh's role without acknowledging the undermining of the election by Britain is ridiculous. Hold an open, free, and fair election by modern standards, it's pretty clear Mossadegh wins easily - he won even with the British influence. He made obvious democratic reforms: took power from the crown and gave it to the people; put the military under civilian control; introduced land reforms; tried to expand suffrage... He was absolutely not a dictator. He was in the process of removing more power from the Shah when our little coup interrupted. It's just historically insulting to claim he was a dictator. It's the sort of a-historical nonsense that gets us into trouble in the Middle East over and over and over... |
14th April 2017, 01:33 PM | #91 |
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He gave himself the power to simply declare laws as he saw fit. Then he dissolved Parliament using an "election" where you had to go to a different location if you wanted to vote against it. I'm sure you understand the implications of that.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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14th April 2017, 01:39 PM | #92 |
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14th April 2017, 01:42 PM | #93 |
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It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
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14th April 2017, 01:46 PM | #94 |
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The order is wrong, but again, that election was marred by MASSIVE interference from foreign agents. There was no possible way for that election to have been fair and free.
It's bizarre to blame Mossadegh for his desperate actions taken under duress from two world powers.
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It doesn't even make sense, and, again, when he was taking this action it was as the US and Britain were directly engaged in a coup to depose him. His choices were constrained.
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Who knows what Mossadegh would have done without the aggression of the US and Britain, but the notion that he was a dictator is, again, just incorrect. When you are under attack, sometimes you behave in a way you otherwise would not have. And after our first failed coup and second successful coup, we did actually install a dictator. You're engaged in the same sad propaganda efforts the undermined Mossadegh in the first place. |
14th April 2017, 01:47 PM | #95 |
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US says the bomb killed 36, and ISIS says it didn't kill any of them.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/14/asia/a...omb/index.html |
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14th April 2017, 01:51 PM | #96 |
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It would help if his facts were correct, they are not.
TraneWreck has addressed Zig's weird version of history that we didn't overthrow Mosaddegh and install the Shaw. My parents lived in Iran just before the Shaw was overthrown, BTW. Only Three Students Actually Attend A Giant, US-Funded Afghan Girls School
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Ghost Students Ghost Teachers Ghost Schools
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Independent Lens - The US funded the Laura Bush Maternity Hospital which ended up then having no staff and no supplies. So yeah, your tax dollars at work, just a little blowback, nothing serious. I wasn't talking about pouring millions into the country which ended up enriching corrupt players. I was talking about funding madrassas that fed kids and were taught by locals in the villages who were not brainwashing kids into Wahhabism. |
14th April 2017, 01:55 PM | #97 |
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14th April 2017, 03:37 PM | #98 |
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14th April 2017, 03:45 PM | #99 |
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14th April 2017, 03:54 PM | #100 |
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I think it would be ok for every nation to have one. The US could make a pile of money selling them and they would be perfectly safe. Very few nations have aircraft capable of carrying one. They could even make a little extra on the side by charging like car dealers do for custom colors. Think how proud the NK's would be to see one decked out in their favorite colors and hauled down the street in one of their military parades.
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14th April 2017, 04:14 PM | #101 |
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So what's the next level, that PDJT is going to use on North Korea? The King of All Bombs?
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14th April 2017, 04:24 PM | #102 |
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Every mother has a mother. So he'd use the Mother of the Mother of All Bombs.
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14th April 2017, 04:51 PM | #103 |
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Granny of all bombs? I don't think you could sell that.
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14th April 2017, 06:08 PM | #104 |
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14th April 2017, 06:15 PM | #105 |
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I'm just waiting for him to drop the F-bomb, period. Preferably during a State of the Union address.
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15th April 2017, 03:04 AM | #106 |
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The Milf of all bombs?
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15th April 2017, 06:39 AM | #107 |
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Now local government is saying that over 90 were killed and that some homes were destroyed.
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15th April 2017, 07:20 AM | #108 |
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15th April 2017, 12:22 PM | #109 |
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__________ Hiding from the |
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16th April 2017, 07:27 PM | #110 |
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16th April 2017, 07:35 PM | #111 |
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Your excuse for his dictatorial power grab is that he was justified in becoming a dictator?
Yeah, that's not gonna work.
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Wow. The derangement is really strong here.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th April 2017, 02:35 AM | #112 |
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17th April 2017, 04:01 AM | #113 |
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Why? it was deployed and used entirely on the local level. Now local military commanders are setting foreign policy?
Trump and the white house had nothing to do with this unless the military is lying. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...cials-say.html |
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17th April 2017, 04:09 AM | #114 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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17th April 2017, 06:23 PM | #115 |
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They probably already have an assembly line for the only complicated parts (the electronics), which was probably just off-the-shelf for the military. The rest of it is so simple, the costs aren't likely to be high even for one-of-a-kind production. A big part of the cost would have been salaries. But since it was developed in-house, the military was going to be paying those salaries anyways.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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21st April 2017, 07:55 PM | #116 |
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I didn't have that tidbit when I posted that. That the RoE have changed / loosened significantly is true, but I see your point on the local commander making the choice.
It wasn't on the menu when I was involved with such things, and the use of that family of weapons is generally for psychological ops. (Maybe the doctrine on that has changed, but it would surprise me if it had). I'll take the mil press release at face value. |
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