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1st November 2016, 07:19 AM | #81 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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1st November 2016, 07:30 AM | #82 |
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13th December 2016, 09:27 AM | #83 |
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While the specifics may have been off, are we still willing to dismiss Russia / Trump ties? And that those ties deal with money?
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14th December 2016, 05:19 PM | #84 |
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NBC Reporting that Putin (A former KGB chief) was directly involved.
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14th December 2016, 11:21 PM | #85 |
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Since Bob would apparently prefer not fouling up his thread with discussion of the validity of the claim itself:
https://theintercept.com/2016/12/14/...ts-not-enough/ First up, the disclaimer:
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That has perhaps been my one issue with this as it has grown. The 'orgy of evidence' (to use a term from one of the best horrible movies ever :9) starts to work against itself as a credible implication. Among them being the 'business hours in Russian time zones' bit. When I think hackers, I don't think of people working 9 to 5 shifts (which they may very well do, but not in the sense of being directly related to their nefarious activities). Even state-sponsored electronic espionage being structured around 'office hours' seems a little weird. Naturally some of this goes off in the other direction of tin-foil-hattery, so I take it with a grain of salt. What I do consider a rational exercise, however, is considering the open question: what other plausible explanations remain in the face of the most direct, irrefutable evidence? Which is incredibly tough to consider since there is an abundance of circumstantial evidence and a lot of plausible theorizing that some sources have presented as concrete fact. |
15th December 2016, 05:28 AM | #86 |
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It seems like the story is far from settled:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN14204E Exclusive: Top U.S. spy agency has not embraced CIA assessment on Russia hacking - sources http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-insiders.html EXCLUSIVE: Ex-British ambassador who is now a WikiLeaks operative claims Russia did NOT provide Clinton emails - they were handed over to him at a D.C. park by an intermediary for 'disgusted' Democratic whistleblowers |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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15th December 2016, 07:09 AM | #87 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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15th December 2016, 12:58 PM | #88 |
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If the Putin/Trump bromance ends prematurely, and Russia did indeed hack RNC computers and plans to embarrass Republicans next election, we can bet Democrats will argue we should ignore the dirt on Donald since it's being released by a foreign power with the intention of influencing American voters.
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15th December 2016, 07:39 PM | #89 |
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Meh, "Oh come on! That was four years ago, let's focus on this election, please" is all it will take to defuse that one. American voters are easily duped by a good platitude such as "we need to look forward, not backwards."
If the RNC was also hacked, the most potential for it is probably blackmail fodder for the present or immediate future. The value of it diminishes with every passing day. |
15th December 2016, 07:58 PM | #90 |
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15th December 2016, 08:00 PM | #91 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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29th December 2016, 11:24 AM | #92 |
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Now that the US is in the process of retaliating, are the usual suspects still convinced this was non-story?
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29th December 2016, 11:30 AM | #93 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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29th December 2016, 11:36 AM | #94 |
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Sure would be nice to have actual evidence. Not anonymous leaks from self-interested parties.
Amazing how many people are willing to take the FBI's and CIA's word for it when it suits them. |
29th December 2016, 11:51 AM | #95 |
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29th December 2016, 11:52 AM | #96 |
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29th December 2016, 11:58 AM | #97 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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29th December 2016, 12:38 PM | #98 |
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29th December 2016, 12:48 PM | #99 |
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Sooo...
Not reacting dramatically to the "red line crossing" in Syria was wrong for Obama, but completely ignoring Russian interference in the election is right ? |
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29th December 2016, 01:18 PM | #100 |
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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29th December 2016, 01:24 PM | #101 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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29th December 2016, 01:39 PM | #102 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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29th December 2016, 02:10 PM | #103 |
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No. What is actually amazing is how people believe what they read on fake news sites (some of which have ties back to Russia) stating that this is all made up and Russia had nothing to do with the hacks... instead of believing what the CIA and FBI are reporting. Heck, congressmen from both parties, which have seen some of the evidence the CIA and FBI have provided them behind closed doors, agree Russia was behind the hacks. But sure, trust Putin's word instead of the CIA. Yeah. Sounds like a solid plan. |
29th December 2016, 03:05 PM | #104 |
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What are the CIA and FBI "reporting" exactly? What concrete evidence have we seen of this? If it existed, believe me it would've been on the front page of the NYT the next day. Assange denies Russian involvement, and Guccifer 2.0 has freely admitted it. Which is eminently credible since this stuff was on an unsecure server. A teenager could've "hacked" these emails. This is the real scandal, but ... squirrel!
Really rich when you consider Obama was eavesdropping on Merkel's phone calls, Hillary and DWS conspired to deny Bernie the nomination and we spent $350k in taxpayer money to defeat Netanyahu. But sure, trust Obama and Hillary. They've never lied to us before. |
29th December 2016, 03:40 PM | #105 |
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I get the sense if the Director of the FBI held the evidence onto your forehead while the Director of the CIA stapled it there, you'd still not believe it. ...seems if you ask, you receive. Just need patience. http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...russia-hacking |
29th December 2016, 04:08 PM | #106 |
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President Obama has ordered the expulsion of diplomats. This reminds me of the back and forth "get your diplomats out of here" the Soviets and the US did for a few decades during the cold war when the spy game was played seriously. I expect that Mr Putin will ensure that an equal number of American diplomats are sent home, as he's an old Cold War player.
Same Stuff, Different Decade |
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29th December 2016, 07:15 PM | #107 |
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The same Director of the FBI that Democrats and Republicans both insisted we wait for word from on Hillary's emails? Then Republicans lambasted and Democrats praised for the lack of indictments? Oh, and then Democrats lambasted and Republicans praised for sending a letter to Congress about the emails from the Weiner case? and then...and then...
He does have a bit of a point, but I also think he's "only right by half." I don't know quite which direction the players in the 'deep state' are going to take. My inclination is that they see clueless reactionaries in power pumping out lots of existential fear. So the really easy play for them is to make a big stink about intelligence and espionage and viola, the money faucets flow and the oversight relaxes as blank checks of every metaphorical variety are written out to them. The link you supplied is carrying a lot of water for a report that has maybe a 2-page summary of all the same circumstantial, indirect claims I've read over the last few months. The bulk of the report seems to be some graphics that very generically illustrate what 'hacking' is and several pages of suggested security settings for network administrators to be aware of. It's like a network security PSA with 'the Russians are coming' tacked on to it. |
29th December 2016, 07:49 PM | #108 |
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29th December 2016, 08:07 PM | #109 |
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29th December 2016, 08:14 PM | #110 |
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Good Lord, why on Earth do you think the CIA would let you in on their no doubt highly classified info? They have shown it to the President and to Congressmen, all who now agree with their assessment. I remind you that people from both parties have looked at it and agreed. But you, a person with zero security clearance, should be privy to material that may put other people's lives at risk? Oh wait, they did release some evidence already to the public (the code used in the hacking), but I imagine you are ready to hand wave that away next.
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All legitimate complaints, though none of which are the topics of this thread. Take them elsewhere and stick to the topic please.
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I'm not trusting just them. I'm trusting the CIA, FBI, and others who have seen the evidence and confirmed it is real. |
29th December 2016, 08:39 PM | #111 |
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Russian MFA spokeswoman has warmed up on her private facebook for tomorrow:
Originally Posted by Maria Zakharova
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29th December 2016, 09:01 PM | #112 |
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Ooh...
Scary! |
29th December 2016, 09:08 PM | #113 |
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Given that Donald Trump's rhetoric has been all over the map in the last three months, anyone who thinks they can predict what policy will be for the next five months, no less the next 4 years, is on some serious mind altering substances.
You don't know. I don't know. I am not sure that The Donald knows. It is my opinion that he's playing it by ear, so far. Not sure if that will change. We'll see. Get yourself some popcorn. It will be entertaining, regardless of how it plays out. |
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29th December 2016, 09:58 PM | #114 |
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Okee doke
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29th December 2016, 11:07 PM | #115 |
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I'm not sticking my fingers in my ears, I remain open to the possibility and numerous ways in which a Russian connection are probable, official or unofficial.
Here's the thing that really kinda scares me. Our President-Elect seems trivially unconcerned with it. He's not all that fire-and-brimstone about waving it off, even. True or untrue, I agree that there should be some impetus to get to the bottom of it. Putting this together with his casual attitude about his security briefings, the intelligence community is probably having some rough sleep lately. |
30th December 2016, 03:09 AM | #116 |
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All this comes from the CIA deciding policy, or cocaine Importation and torture and bugging agency as it is sometimes known. America needs sane government, not this CIA policy of supporting Al-Qaeda groups in Syria with military equipment and training in order to topple Assad, and not offending the Jews.
Part of the trouble is that the Russians and wily Turks and Iranians are semi -Asiatics. They don't think like red-blooded Englishmen and they don't play cricket. Crimea always has been part of Russia and they speak Russian in the east of Ukraine. This CIA propaganda, with their close connections in the mainstream media, that Putin is planning aggression against Latvia and Estonia and Sweden and Poland is not based on evidence. Personally, I think Putin thinks that would interfere with international trade and he is right. All these silly sanctions to "keep Russia under control" is not right judgment. I think it would be a disaster if Cameron was put in charge of Nato. It would just lead to the spread of Isis, as happened in Libya. It's a monstrous and dangerous policy as usual. |
30th December 2016, 07:01 AM | #117 |
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I don't have much to say one way or the other about the rest of your post, but the highlighted portion is simply not true. Read up on the history of Crimea and you'll see it was only recently part of Russia (in historical timelines).
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For only 177 years (give or take) out of thousands of years in the total history of Crimea has it been in Russian/Soviet Union hands. For the last 23 of 25 years, it was part of Ukraine in one form or another... right up until Russia rolled in and took it by force. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea |
30th December 2016, 07:05 AM | #118 |
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If you want to know what Murray claims or doesn't claim I suggest you listen to the man instead of using filters like the Daily Fail.
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30th December 2016, 08:44 AM | #119 |
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Putin's reaction is in, a true gem from the master. He's treating the clowns as who they are, refuses to take the bait and ... "moreover I invite all children of US diplomats accredited in Russia to the New Year and Christmas children’s parties in the Kremlin. "
Originally Posted by VV Putin
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Last edited by Childlike Empress; 30th December 2016 at 08:48 AM. Reason: copy statement for the pussies afraid to visit the Kremlin website... ;o) |
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