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Tags afghanistan war , donald trump , US-Afghanistan relations

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Old 13th April 2017, 07:23 PM   #41
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Old 13th April 2017, 07:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Last I heard, it is a really big fuel-air bomb. First effect is the overpressure- crushes things and burns things and moves things apart. As oxygen is used up, it creates a partial vacuum which pulls stuff apart including pulling internal parts out - especially lungs and such. Makes the burial/cleanup crews think hard about continuing to fight the people who dropped it!!!!
Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb (MOAB). the "Mother of all bombs" is slang that is a direct lampoon of Saddam Hussein's declaration before Operation Desert Storm (or Operation Kuwaiti Freedom, 1991 ish) that there would be "the mother of all battles" when the American led coalition crossed into Kuwait and Iraq when the attacked. As it worked out, it was MOAR, or, the Mother of All Routs.

If it was an FAE of that size, that would be a heck of a boom.
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Mother of all bombs sounds kinda nice. Like she cares. You still get blown to bits, but in a gentle, loving way.
See above.

Analysis:
Someone was sending a real subtle message to the leader of North Korea.
A while back, when dealing with air ops and air strikes in Afghanistan was my daily lot, the RoE would never have allowed its use.
Things have changed.
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Old 13th April 2017, 07:31 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
BOOM




Never used before. One of the reasons why I thought Trump will be the lesser evil compared to Killary is that there will be resistance to further wars, including from his base, instead of just bending over like in the Obama years. So far it seems the only anti-war protests are literally held by Nazis, while "the left" protests for free buttseks and hash cookies or something, if anything.
Basically, anyone who voted for, or supported Trump, cannot be surprised if he:

a) does what he says he would do in his election campaign
b) tries to do what he says he would do in his election campaign
c) does anything given his erratic verbal performances and apparent ignorance of the political culture he presides over now.

He's someone who will apparently launch missiles when he sees something harrowing on TV, and who will drop big bombs because it's cool, and whose saying one thing one day will not prevent him doing the exact opposite thing the next day. Essentially he may do some astonishing things, astonishingly bad things that may be shocking, but which we cannot really be surprised by.
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Old 13th April 2017, 07:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Basically, anyone who voted for, or supported Trump, cannot be surprised if he:

a) does what he says he would do in his election campaign
b) tries to do what he says he would do in his election campaign
c) does anything given his erratic verbal performances and apparent ignorance of the political culture he presides over now.

He's someone who will apparently launch missiles when he sees something harrowing on TV, and who will drop big bombs because it's cool, and whose saying one thing one day will not prevent him doing the exact opposite thing the next day. Essentially he may do some astonishing things, astonishingly bad things that may be shocking, but which we cannot really be surprised by.
Crazy like a fox, perhaps.

Sun Tzu once said: to defeat the enemy, defeat his plan.

That's good advice, unless ... there is no plan.
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Old 13th April 2017, 07:41 PM   #45
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Why does this bomb have its name painted on the side? Is that to make it easy to sort out from other bombs?
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Old 13th April 2017, 07:50 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Why does this bomb have its name painted on the side? Is that to make it easy to sort out from other bombs?
They have to alphabetize them in the warehouse.
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Old 13th April 2017, 10:23 PM   #47
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The strike is nowhere near to where ISIS is in actual combat - does it make sense that it would be used by ISIS?

I also wonder if Obama might have green-lighted this move! Trump won't say if he did, that battlefield personnel have latitude to do more than they could under Trump. Could be, but if he could have taken credit for it he would have been tempted.
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Old 13th April 2017, 10:35 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The strike is nowhere near to where ISIS is in actual combat - does it make sense that it would be used by ISIS?

I also wonder if Obama might have green-lighted this move! Trump won't say if he did, that battlefield personnel have latitude to do more than they could under Trump. Could be, but if he could have taken credit for it he would have been tempted.

The mission was planned in stages during the Obama administration.

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Old 14th April 2017, 02:03 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Snowden points out that those tunnel complexes were build and paid for by the US.

$314 Million is the cost of a MOAB, apparently. Sometimes the way down is more difficult than the way up. Or was it the other way around?

Do you even read the sources your hero cites?

That cost is explained as being for twenty of the 15 ton Massive Ordnance Penetrators (MOPs, mentioned up-thread), not the 11 ton MOAB used today, which I heard run about 12 million apiece.
Both costs I consider egregious bilking of the federal budget by military contractors, but... the Republicans love them (and their profits) so what am I gonna do?


And who cares that we built at least some of the mountain tunnel system In Afghanistan? We were kinda helping out in a bit of a skirmish round those parts back in the nineties (as usual for us... we screwed up the exit plan). We were hardly going to pack them up and take them home when we left. Much like the Vietnamese dams we first built ('50s) then destroyed during that war (mentioned in that Snowden tweet thread you cited).

So other than MOPs being pricey (agreed)... did you think citing Snowden there was scoring you any points?
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Old 14th April 2017, 06:32 AM   #50
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Pentagon has released aerial video of this bomb drop. It's at DailyMail and probably elsewhere.
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Old 14th April 2017, 06:44 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
Is there anyone here who knows a lot about MOABs? I keep seeing news stories saying the blast radius is 1 mile, which is just absurd. As far as I know, the effective blast radius of a MOAB is somewhere between 100-200 meters, not even close to 1 mile. So either my understanding of how a MOAB works is seriously flawed, or someone seriously miscommunicated something to the journalists somewhere.
What makes you say that? A car bomb can have a blast radius of more than 100m. The blast radius of the MK84 bomb is around 400m and the Blu82 is over 1.5km. The MOAB is more powerful than the latter but its radius is likely similar because of the way the blast is channelled. A one mile (1.6km) blast radius seems reasonable.
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Old 14th April 2017, 06:58 AM   #52
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Here's a link to the Pentagon video of the bomb.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...orce-MOAB.html

Concerning the one mile thing... I have been reading that what happens is that a person can feel the shock wave from this bomb up to a mile away. Not that it will destroy or kill at one mile distance.
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Old 14th April 2017, 07:01 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
What makes you say that? A car bomb can have a blast radius of more than 100m. The blast radius of the MK84 bomb is around 400m and the Blu82 is over 1.5km. The MOAB is more powerful than the latter but its radius is likely similar because of the way the blast is channelled. A one mile (1.6km) blast radius seems reasonable.
I suppose I may be thinking of it too simplistically in terms of overpressure. The overpressure at 1 mile from the blast should be barely noticeable, but I suppose shrapnel could still be quite lethal at that range.
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Old 14th April 2017, 07:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
I suppose I may be thinking of it too simplistically in terms of overpressure. The overpressure at 1 mile from the blast should be barely noticeable, but I suppose shrapnel could still be quite lethal at that range.
For the record I think the blast radius of a big nuke is somewhere between 15 and 35 miles, defined by flattening buildings and killing people, and the heat radius maybe another 20 miles on top of that.
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Old 14th April 2017, 07:40 AM   #55
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Old 14th April 2017, 08:05 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Basically, anyone who voted for, or supported Trump, cannot be surprised if he:

a) does what he says he would do in his election campaign
b) tries to do what he says he would do in his election campaign
c) does anything given his erratic verbal performances and apparent ignorance of the political culture he presides over now.

He's someone who will apparently launch missiles when he sees something harrowing on TV, and who will drop big bombs because it's cool, and whose saying one thing one day will not prevent him doing the exact opposite thing the next day. Essentially he may do some astonishing things, astonishingly bad things that may be shocking, but which we cannot really be surprised by.
It is worse than that.

Trump loves praise. Feeds off it. Trump got lots of praise for the cruise missile attack in Syria last week, and then again with the big boomie in A-stan. Now he is sending a fleet to North Korea and making noise about pre-emptive strikes.

If people keep telling him he is presidential because he is blowing people up he will keep blowing people up.
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Old 14th April 2017, 08:14 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
Is there anyone here who knows a lot about MOABs? I keep seeing news stories saying the blast radius is 1 mile, which is just absurd. As far as I know, the effective blast radius of a MOAB is somewhere between 100-200 meters, not even close to 1 mile. So either my understanding of how a MOAB works is seriously flawed, or someone seriously miscommunicated something to the journalists somewhere.
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Old 14th April 2017, 08:18 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
BAIG BADA-BOOM!



Perfect spelling... I can hear it.

No like button here, have a multi-pass from petty cash.
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Old 14th April 2017, 09:59 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Never used before. One of the reasons why I thought Trump will be the lesser evil compared to Killary is that there will be resistance to further wars, including from his base, instead of just bending over like in the Obama years. So far it seems the only anti-war protests are literally held by Nazis, while "the left" protests for free buttseks and hash cookies or something, if anything.


Thinking that Trump would be less violent than Hillary is simply bizarre.
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Old 14th April 2017, 10:03 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Thinking that Trump would be less violent than Hillary is simply bizarre.
What are you talking about? It's not like he promised to commit war crimes and massively increase military spending. Oh... wait.
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Old 14th April 2017, 10:11 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Crazy like a fox, perhaps.

Sun Tzu once said: to defeat the enemy, defeat his plan.

That's good advice, unless ... there is no plan.
Listen to the first questions reporters asked Trump after they learned about the bomb. Trump had no idea what it was or how the drop was ordered. He stammered, then just said he empowered the military.

If there's a plan, it sure as hell isn't Trump's. I would say that's good, but when there's a vacuum of leadership on the top and lower level folks have been empowered, competing agendas tend to emerge.

I'm not sure how likely it is that people charged with day to day operations in Afghanistan are thinking about North Korea. I would consider it impressive if they were thinking about ISIS in other areas of the Middle East.

But who knows? Maybe there's some general with a big map of the globe believing subtle hints delivered thousands of miles away will affect North Korea's opinion on things.
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Old 14th April 2017, 10:16 AM   #62
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It's an odd time when the sanest player on the international stage seems to be China.
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Old 14th April 2017, 10:46 AM   #63
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FIRST VIDEO: US mega-bomb strike against ISIS targets in Afghanistan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwNu4-458Po
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Old 14th April 2017, 10:47 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
If there's a plan, it sure as hell isn't Trump's. I would say that's good, but when there's a vacuum of leadership on the top and lower level folks have been empowered, competing agendas tend to emerge.
If Jim Mattis can pick his own people he would be very effective but there are too many areas of potential and actual engagement for one general to supervise - he'd have to have a big staff of his own people, but then wouldn't he have the whole apparatus under his SecDef label?

Judging by maps the tunnel complex is hundreds of miles away from ISIS territory so I wonder if they actually use it. Pakistani groups might.

Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
But who knows? Maybe there's some general with a big map of the globe believing subtle hints delivered thousands of miles away will affect North Korea's opinion on things.
Strategic displays of overwhelming force are probably useful but trying to make the point all over the planet? There is a general with a big map of the globe - I hope he has the very best intelligence (in both senses) at his disposal?

This isn't the 1950s. Things are more complicated now.

Afghanistan and China actually share a border. Still thousands of miles to North Korea.
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Old 14th April 2017, 10:55 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's an odd time when the sanest player on the international stage seems to be China.
China is sane but it is not a "free" country by any Western standard and maybe by no global standard.

I'm not an expert but actually I've always been impressed by how China has managed to remain more or less a continuous civilization for so many centuries. Mongol and Manchu invaders were sort of absorbed into China.

China goes out and gets what it wants in the global marketplace, no qualms about making deals with any dictatorships. I'm surprised they tolerate the butterball pipsqueak on their border.
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Old 14th April 2017, 11:01 AM   #66
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This kinda sums up US gung ho attitude and is cringeworthy to say the least:
https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/852862819913658369
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Old 14th April 2017, 11:08 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Strategic displays of overwhelming force are probably useful but trying to make the point all over the planet? There is a general with a big map of the globe - I hope he has the very best intelligence (in both senses) at his disposal?
I suppose, but is there any real doubt that we have a ton of big bombs? I mean, if North Korea is anything other than completely deluded and insane, they are well aware of our ability to annihilate them. They're relying on our restraint and desire to avoid war and likely millions of deaths and even more refugees -- which has previously been a reasonable bet.

If they're insane, then more bombs, even big ones, won't break through their bubble.

I just find it hard to believe that one bomb in Afghanistan made them realize we have a big, powerful military.
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Old 14th April 2017, 11:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
This kinda sums up US gung ho attitude and is cringeworthy to say the least:
https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/852862819913658369
The irony in this post is that "gung ho" is a Chinese phrase that means "work together".
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Old 14th April 2017, 11:18 AM   #69
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A brief, oversimplified and maybe the timeline is muddled, but nonetheless true history of stupidity (my opinion of why bombing will never resolve this disaster).

Anyone who thinks we can just "bomb the **** out of ISIS" (Trump's words) and that will be that, hasn't been paying attention to the last half century of warfare in that region.

We were there for years fighting a proxy war with Russia, which eventually left Russia there for years backing their own installed government. It could be compared to them fighting their own Vietnam war until the Russian public pressured their leaders to withdraw. Then the Taliban took over after the Russians withdrew. Then after 9/11 we re-invaded, installed Karzai, who only ever ruled the Kabul area. Pakistan next door isn't much more unified, by the way.

During all that time, there were plenty of attempts to bomb the **** out of the [fill in the blank with the terrorist group/warlord/faction du jour]. None of which moved the ball down the field.

In the meantime, we could have resolved this whole thing had we funded schools instead of armies. But the right wing in our country or Russia's doesn't understand that.

Why Exactly Does Saudi Arabia Fund the Spread of Wahhabism?
Quote:
Many in the West may be unaware of the significance of an event in Saudi Arabian history for the rest of the world. In an article titled Saudia Arabia and Iran: The Cold War of Islam (sic – the “i” in Saudia still stands two weeks after the article was posted), Spiegel International reports that in November of 1979, the same year as the Iranian revolution

…Sunni terrorists seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca and took thousands of pilgrims hostage. Their leader came from the heart of Saudi Arabia and claimed to be the Mahdi, or redeemer — and he called for the overthrow of the king. The royal family saw little choice but to call for assistance from French special forces — infidels — to liberate the mosque.
One effect: “The House of Saud was humiliated, particularly in front of its own religious establishment.” How did it attempt to restore its status?

… the princes sought to cleanse themselves by beginning to send billions in oil money to radical preachers — preachers who then carried Wahhabism, the most strict and unforgiving form of Islam, around the world.

Thus

As such, 1979 didn’t just mark the year when the export of the “Islamic Revolution” began … [it] was also when Saudi Arabia began planting the seeds of Sunni extremism, the bitter fruits of which are still being harvested today in the lawless valleys of Pakistan, in Raqqa, the capital of Islamic State, and also in the West, in the heads of confused young men. And in the kingdom itself: Now, Sunni extremism is even threatening the country where it was once spawned.
If only someone with critical thinking skills ran this country. Now we've gone backward, not forward. Too many poorly informed people see the US as this great military power. After all, didn't we redeem our Vietnam loss when we routed Saddam out of Kuwait?

All the while those madrassas offered food and education to the poor all over the Middle East and along with it, Muslim extremism. Iran on the other hand had it's own revolution, throwing out the dictator we installed after we crushed their democratically elected leader. And of course, the Sunni/Shia war is not going to end anytime soon.


The ignorance of these cultural issues within our government and the dog whistle crowd that cheers them on boggles the mind.

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Old 14th April 2017, 11:23 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
The mission was planned in stages during the Obama administration.
I'm not a military guy, but is there really a lot of "planning" that goes into this?

You need an airbase to take off from. You need a target. I suspect it's laser guided so you point your laser at the target until it hits. It's not like you have two teams meeting up in the middle of the night that need to synchronize their watches or anything.

I guess you could argue that having the bomb sent to the airfield in the first place is a sign of planning.
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Old 14th April 2017, 11:48 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Do you even read the sources your hero cites?

That cost is explained as being for twenty of the 15 ton Massive Ordnance Penetrators (MOPs, mentioned up-thread), not the 11 ton MOAB used today, which I heard run about 12 million apiece.
If $314 million is the cost for all 20 MOPs, then that puts the unit cost at $16 million.

But the MOP is a far more complex device than the MOAB. The bomb needs to survive incredible shock, surviving high-speed impact with solid rock/concrete, and penetrate deep into that before exploding. That's a wickedly hard engineering challenge, and the manufacturing is probably also pretty demanding. The MOAB just needs to go boom before it hits. I would be surprised if the MOAB came in at anywhere close to $12 million.

But it turns out that even the Pentagon doesn't have a unit cost for the MOAB.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/13/th...totally-wrong/
The MOAB was developed and manufactured in-house, not contracted out to private companies like most weapons systems. So there never was a separate budgeting process for it. But $12 million is almost certainly a huge overestimate. Tomohawk missiles are less than $1 million apiece, and while the MOAB is much, much larger, it's also much, much simpler. I'd bet it's less than $1 million each as well.
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Old 14th April 2017, 11:54 AM   #72
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
In the meantime, we could have resolved this whole thing had we funded schools instead of armies.
First off, we DID fund schools in Afghanistan. Second, if you don't fund armies as well, what exactly do you think is going to happen to those schools? You think the Taliban considers them off-limits to attack?

Quote:
Iran on the other hand had it's own revolution, throwing out the dictator we installed after we crushed their democratically elected leader.
The US didn't install the Shah. He was already the Shah before we got involved.

Quote:
The ignorance of these cultural issues within our government and the dog whistle crowd that cheers them on boggles the mind.
That's ironic.
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:03 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The US didn't install the Shah. He was already the Shah before we got involved.
Seriously? This is what you want to go with?

We, along with Britain, lead a coup that deposed Mossadegh. We, along with Britain, chose General Fazlollah Zahedi to run the country as Prime Minister. We, along with Britain, supported the Shah as he took power from the Prime Minister.

We didn't make him Shah, we made him ruler of Iran.
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:04 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First off, we DID fund schools in Afghanistan. Second, if you don't fund armies as well, what exactly do you think is going to happen to those schools? You think the Taliban considers them off-limits to attack?

The US didn't install the Shah. He was already the Shah before we got involved.
Quit trying to confuse me with facts.
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:05 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'm not a military guy, but is there really a lot of "planning" that goes into this?

You need an airbase to take off from. You need a target. I suspect it's laser guided so you point your laser at the target until it hits. It's not like you have two teams meeting up in the middle of the night that need to synchronize their watches or anything.

I guess you could argue that having the bomb sent to the airfield in the first place is a sign of planning.

A lot of details are involved in such an attack and amazingly, the only paint available to paint the bomb during construction was 'John Deere green.'
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:10 PM   #76
Jim_MDP
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If $314 million is the cost for all 20 MOPs, then that puts the unit cost at $16 million.

But the MOP is a far more complex device than the MOAB. The bomb needs to survive incredible shock, surviving high-speed impact with solid rock/concrete, and penetrate deep into that before exploding. That's a wickedly hard engineering challenge, and the manufacturing is probably also pretty demanding. The MOAB just needs to go boom before it hits. I would be surprised if the MOAB came in at anywhere close to $12 million.

But it turns out that even the Pentagon doesn't have a unit cost for the MOAB.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/13/th...totally-wrong/
The MOAB was developed and manufactured in-house, not contracted out to private companies like most weapons systems. So there never was a separate budgeting process for it. But $12 million is almost certainly a huge overestimate. Tomohawk missiles are less than $1 million apiece, and while the MOAB is much, much larger, it's also much, much simpler. I'd bet it's less than $1 million each as well.

I came back in specifically because that MOAB unit price just seemed impossible to me as well... and though I hadn't considered how much more the MOPs hardening could raise its' cost, I'm not sure it could be as costly as you seem to feel.

Just like you, I can't imagine a gravity bomb (MOAB) being several times the cost of the guided and rocket powered Tomahawk.

Interesting though that an in-house product is proving so hard to track down costs for. Anyway... thanks for posting what you had.
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:12 PM   #77
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
A brief, oversimplified and maybe the timeline is muddled, but nonetheless true history of stupidity (my opinion of why bombing will never resolve this disaster).

Anyone who thinks we can just "bomb the **** out of ISIS" (Trump's words) and that will be that, hasn't been paying attention to the last half century of warfare in that region.

We were there for years fighting a proxy war with Russia, which eventually left Russia there for years backing their own installed government. It could be compared to them fighting their own Vietnam war until the Russian public pressured their leaders to withdraw. Then the Taliban took over after the Russians withdrew. Then after 9/11 we re-invaded, installed Karzai, who only ever ruled the Kabul area. Pakistan next door isn't much more unified, by the way.

During all that time, there were plenty of attempts to bomb the **** out of the [fill in the blank with the terrorist group/warlord/faction du jour]. None of which moved the ball down the field.

In the meantime, we could have resolved this whole thing had we funded schools instead of armies. But the right wing in our country or Russia's doesn't understand that.

Why Exactly Does Saudi Arabia Fund the Spread of Wahhabism?

If only someone with critical thinking skills ran this country. Now we've gone backward, not forward. Too many poorly informed people see the US as this great military power. After all, didn't we redeem our Vietnam loss when we routed Saddam out of Kuwait?

All the while those madrassas offered food and education to the poor all over the Middle East and along with it, Muslim extremism. Iran on the other hand had it's own revolution, throwing out the dictator we installed after we crushed their democratically elected leader. And of course, the Sunni/Shia war is not going to end anytime soon.


The ignorance of these cultural issues within our government and the dog whistle crowd that cheers them on boggles the mind.
I agree.

I did a contract with Vinnell training SANG troopers in the early 1980's and some of the other instructors had first hand experience with the seizure of the Grand Mosque.

It was an ugly business all the way around.
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:12 PM   #78
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Seriously? This is what you want to go with?
The truth? Yes, I want to go with the truth.

We picked sides in an internal dispute. You can object to our having done so, but the sides were already there, we didn't create them.

Oh, and Mossadegh was no democrat either.
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:18 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's an odd time when the sanest player on the international stage seems to be China.
Better get used to it. Sanity isn't likely to be restored here any time soon.
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Old 14th April 2017, 12:20 PM   #80
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I came back in specifically because that MOAB unit price just seemed impossible to me as well... though I hadn't considered how much more the MOPs hardening could raise its' cost, I'm not sure it could be as costly as you seem to feel.
Why not? It's an incredible engineering challenge. The development costs must have been monstrous. Just think about what you need to do to actually test one of those things just once, even after you've done all the design work. You can't just drop it on the ground somewhere in your firing range. You need to construct a target 200 feet underground, so that you can confirm that it gets destroyed. I'm sure the per-unit cost would drop significantly if more of them were purchased, since those development costs have now been paid for, but they had to be paid for in full with the first batch.
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