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27th April 2017, 08:38 AM | #41 |
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The number of people who would be concerned about such issues is relatively small (a few people involved in the medical/psych field, perhaps some sociologists), and they should be more than capable of dealing with the differences between common usage of the term "pedophile" and the more clinical definition.
Similarly, lumping "bigotry against Mexicans" in with "racism" is something that would be convenient/useful, and attempting to stick to a more technical definition (subdefine bigotry by subtype - race, religion, nationality) would be useful to only a tiny number of people and inconvenient to the rest of us. |
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27th April 2017, 09:05 AM | #42 |
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27th April 2017, 09:12 AM | #43 |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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27th April 2017, 09:15 AM | #44 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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27th April 2017, 09:27 AM | #45 |
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27th April 2017, 09:29 AM | #46 |
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27th April 2017, 09:31 AM | #47 |
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For those of you who feel the need to split hairs, please see Mumbles' post. This thread was inspired by a recent comment from a Trump-defending conservative. "Ha ha, 'Mexican" isn't a race so you can't call it racist!"
If you haven't seen this used over and over and over and over to explain away Trump, then you've been living under a cabbage leaf for the past year. But to return to Mumbles' contention, if the idiots making the idiotic statements perceive Mexicans or Muslims or Puerto Ricans or Anywhereians as a race and direct their racist xenophobia towards them, then for all intents and purposes consider them racists. Meh? I prefer "bigot". Racism, to me, has always been open to the possibility that it's unintentional even inadvertent behavior. Being a southern white kid (for certain definitions of "white"; being Jewish-Sicilian I wasn't invited to a lot of White Citizens Council meetings), I can see myself failing the alone-in-the-elevator test. Bigotry, though? That's a thought-out tenet. Bigots have worked at it and have justifications all built into their defense of their positions. But it's funny, ya know. I haven't seen any of the Trump, Bannon, Sessions, Coulter apologists saying, "Hey, you can't call that racism! Trump's an outright bigot, but there's no proof he's racist." No. It's used to dismiss his behavior and his statements as a trump card to counter the use of the term, not to disprove that he has those qualities. The argument stops at "racist" and if they can hand-wave away that accusation then all's right in the world and he's actually a swell guy. |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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27th April 2017, 09:34 AM | #48 |
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This is just another version of a dogwhistle.
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Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
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27th April 2017, 09:41 AM | #49 |
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27th April 2017, 10:11 AM | #50 |
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Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
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27th April 2017, 10:12 AM | #51 |
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There is a valid distinction to be made between being prejudiced against a culture and being prejudiced against a perceived biological ethnicity. The two are often so intertwined that it can get confusing (and one could certainly be prejudiced against both), but they still aren't the same thing.
One can be racist against Mexicans, insofar as they perceive "Mexican" as being an ethnicity or as a subset of a larger ethnicity. A racist, who is not culturally prejudiced would make an exception for a Caucasian who was technically Mexican due to being a Mexican citizen, being born in Mexico, etc. They would not make an exception for a person of Mexican/Mestizo ancestry who was born in the US and was fully integrated into American culture with no traces of Mexican culture, etc. A person who is prejudiced against Mexican culture, but is not racist would be the opposite on those two things. As for what words to use, practically speaking... I think it's probably best not to overuse the word racist when it doesn't necessarily apply. And "xenophobe" doesn't flow very well. I think words like "bigoted", "prejudiced", "intolerant" and "hateful" work under a lot of circumstances. |
27th April 2017, 10:25 AM | #52 |
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The term "White Hispanic" coined during the trial of George Zimmerman comes to mind.
I've seen examples of both behaviors described above. I have dark skinned Latino friends, born and raised in the US, who are labeled "Mexican". And of course, there is the sweet southern lady at a company I worked before who could not comprehend how offensive it was ever time she would mimic my accent. |
27th April 2017, 10:27 AM | #53 |
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Of course doing something bad and then objecting to an misapplied term doesn't "address the problem [of the bad thing you did]". To take that to its logical extreme....
*Jack murders an elderly man* Jill: Jack murdered someone. He's a child molester! Jack: No, murder isn't child molestation. Jill: That doesn't address the problem of you murdering someone. Jack: Duh.... I don't think "it doesn't address the problem" is a valid complaint. So, that leaves us with the argument that it's a pedantic distinction. I won't take a side on that, but I'll just point out that when you use inaccurate language and someone objects to it, you are the one giving them a valid reason to "not address the problem", a valid reason to portray attacks made against them as incorrect and unreasonable, and so on. |
27th April 2017, 10:29 AM | #54 |
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Hispanic would be closer to a "race." When I say, as someone who would be considered "Hispanic" and "Mexican" (even though I have a lot of "races" mixed in me and I and the 3 generations before me were born in the USA), "I don't want Mexicans coming here illegally," I don't think there is a racist, bigoted or intolerant undertone to that at all. Maybe a xenophobic undertone, but that isn't my intention.
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27th April 2017, 10:51 AM | #55 |
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27th April 2017, 10:53 AM | #56 |
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Why can’t Mexican be considered a race? It’s not there is any formal agreement on what makes a race or how to separate one from another.
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27th April 2017, 11:00 AM | #57 |
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I prefer the term "bigoted" because A) it's a more accurate, all-encompassing term and B) it prevents bigots from creating irrelevant distractions when they're being called out on their bigotry.
Which is exactly what happened to inspire this thread. |
27th April 2017, 11:14 AM | #58 |
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27th April 2017, 11:23 AM | #59 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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27th April 2017, 11:31 AM | #60 |
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Federal law recognizes National Origin and Race as two separate types of discrimination.
https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/index.cfm Mexican is not a race, therefore it is National Origin discrimination. Question answered |
27th April 2017, 11:53 AM | #61 |
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27th April 2017, 11:59 AM | #62 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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27th April 2017, 12:18 PM | #63 |
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27th April 2017, 12:20 PM | #64 |
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I skimmed the thread so sorry if I missed someone pointing this out, but the Mexicans Trump and his followers hate and fear so much aren't the light-skinned upper and middle class ones. It's the poor, brown skinned, black-haired ones with significant native ancestry they worry about. It really is about race, or at least about skin color.
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27th April 2017, 12:32 PM | #65 |
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27th April 2017, 01:23 PM | #66 |
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Fact is ,in popular usage, the terms "Racist" and "Bigot" have become interchangeable.
And in the end,popular usage is what counts,not pendatic discussions about semantics. |
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27th April 2017, 01:25 PM | #67 |
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27th April 2017, 01:28 PM | #68 |
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27th April 2017, 01:36 PM | #69 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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27th April 2017, 01:38 PM | #70 |
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When it comes to word meaning, I am sorry but the *folk* that is the majority, define that word. No matter what a few people decrying language purity or whatnot decry.
I have been on the wrong side of the debate for hackers and crackers, so I know what it is like to be in the minority. In the very end language is used as a communication, and the majority dictate is what define words meaning, no matter what the minority purist thinks. |
27th April 2017, 01:40 PM | #71 |
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27th April 2017, 01:50 PM | #72 |
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You just saved me the trouble of replying to Bob.
The term Hacker is a good example. it might have originally meant any computer user who liked to go "under the hood" in using software, (the computer version of a auto owner who liked to mess around with and tweak his engine) , it has come to define,in popular usage,a person who breaks into other people's computers for illegal purposes. That is had a more innocent meaning in the beginning is irrevelent. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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27th April 2017, 01:55 PM | #73 |
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I wouldn't say they are completely interchangeable. After all, someone could (in theory) be sexist or anti-gay, which is a form of bigotry, but calling a homo-phobe "racist" would be confusing (whereas calling someone bigoted against mexicans a "racist" is at least in the same ballpark.)
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27th April 2017, 02:00 PM | #74 |
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I don't really think there's any confusion here.
The only person who seems to use the argument that "bigotry against Mexicans is not racism because Mexican isn't a race" was a hardcore trump supporter, whom I suspect knew that he was in the wrong but was flinging as much mud as he could. If not the "Mexican is not a race" argument, he would have picked some other irrelevant argument to make. |
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27th April 2017, 02:35 PM | #75 |
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27th April 2017, 02:39 PM | #76 |
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27th April 2017, 02:59 PM | #77 |
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Here is a pretty good article summarizing in layman's terms why anti-discrimination statues include both Race and National Origin and the differences between the two
National Origin Discrimination vs. Race Discrimination: What’s the Difference? Now if you don't want to sound like a huckleberry, try not to confuse National Origin discrimination and racism. /full disclosure: I have not vetted the author of that linked article and he might be a HARD CORE TRUMP SUPPORTER so be forewarned. |
27th April 2017, 04:45 PM | #78 |
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Lol
Your post is nothing more than division. Republicans don't think in terms of race, never have, this is a monster of the left, which they use to divide people to further their causes. Most are catching on to it, which is another reason your side has lost so badly. But of course the left won't stop, because they have to look at their political enemies as monsters, it's the only way they can justify these divisive tactics. Someday it will spill into the streets, its getting close now, im sure your side will be delighted in that. |
27th April 2017, 04:53 PM | #79 |
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Actually the left calls him a "racist" because of his comments on Mexicans who have come here and raped and murdered. Which is true. Further, this is how the left does it, discussing people from another country somehow makes the person a racist when the left feels they can frame then market it. We can talk about China, no racism there. We can talk about Cuba, no racism there. But when the left is looking for Latino votes, talking about Mexicans brings the racist label.
He isn't a racist for discussing it, he isn't a racist for wanting to stop it. So to recap, I'm still a Trump supporter, I'm in the right, and I'm not flinging mud at all, it's not permitted here. I'm not out to make another argument, this one has plenty of confusion to figure out. |
27th April 2017, 05:00 PM | #80 |
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