|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
1st May 2017, 08:37 AM | #161 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
|
1st May 2017, 08:40 AM | #162 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
1st May 2017, 08:41 AM | #163 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
1st May 2017, 08:49 AM | #164 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
This shouldn't be so hard. Who are these suffering people? How are they suffering? Surely you have some evidence other than your assertions.
Quote:
Some laws are unjust or impractical. Amazingly, we have the ability to rewrite those rules. Ask your buddy Cliven Bundy.
Quote:
Quote:
If it's simple, you should have no trouble making the case. Let me give you an example. Smoking cigarettes are dangerous, why? Because they are linked to a ton of health problems. Here is information on that: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_sta...s_cig_smoking/ Do the same with immigration. Show me what the problems are.
Quote:
Again, immigrants, undocumented and otherwise, commit crimes at a lower rate than other Americans:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You are the one asserting that there is some harm caused by illegal immigration. You are completely incapable of showing that harm. Go ahead and provide facts to support your emotional bias, and I will respond with evidence explaining why I'm not a proponent of open borders. You were challenged, surely you won't continue to evade like a coward. |
1st May 2017, 08:54 AM | #165 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Yes, and I'm happy to show you evidence. As I said, the problem is that you will reject the obvious conclusions of that evidence because dealing with social science issues is more complicated than showing 1=1=2.
Your standard is such that, for example, no one could ever be convicted of a crime. Consider the charge of premeditation. Absent a person writing, "I'm going to kill ____," is there any behavior that could ever prove premeditation to your satisfaction? |
1st May 2017, 09:02 AM | #166 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
Premeditation is the act of planning the crime and there are actions involved. A person can premeditate on a crime without having to know "why" they have a desire to commit the crime.
But I am extremely skeptical about the fact finding process in criminal justice that would likely jeopardize my ability to sit on a jury. So probably not a good thing to reference with me as I am just as likely to argue with any standard in the court system. |
1st May 2017, 09:02 AM | #167 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
1st May 2017, 09:06 AM | #168 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Look, this is a perfect example of the game you play.
The "why" is that they want to kill someone. That's the important causal relationship for finding someone guilty of premeditated murder. Asking them why they want to plan to murder someone may or may not be interesting, but it isn't super relevant to proving guilt. That's like saying a person doesn't need to know why they're racist in order to behaving accordingly. This is a pointless game that can keep going back to infinity. Premeditation is a mental state that can be inferred by behavior. We don't need to know why they want to murder someone to draw those inferences. If we want to discover motive, a separate and not necessary element to proving guilt, we would engage in the same type of inference. Racism is a mental state that can be inferred by behavior. We don't need to know why they're racist to draw proper inferences. |
1st May 2017, 09:07 AM | #169 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
1st May 2017, 09:08 AM | #170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Yes, that was my point. These discussions with you are completely useless because you've invented a standard of proof for yourself that totally paralyzes you for public policy discussions. The fact that you couldn't serve on a jury is exactly the same reason why no one on planet Earth will be able to provide you with the evidence you want because it doesn't exist, nor could it ever barring the creation of some omnipotent super-computer, or something.
That's fine if you want to live that way, but you love to interject yourself into conversations and play this role. |
1st May 2017, 09:12 AM | #171 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
I absolutely agree with all of this. I thought this is what I was saying.
You said the following "Asking them why they want to plan to murder someone may or may not be interesting, but it isn't super relevant to proving guilt." Maybe I am misreading the statement "driven by racism," but that sounds like trying to prove "why they want to plan to murder." |
1st May 2017, 09:14 AM | #172 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Perhaps the analogy was needlessly confusing. I was just thinking of a different context to demonstrate how unrealistic your stance is. Take a different element: motive. This is a more or less direct analogy to what we're discussing with birtherism and immigration.
How do you prove a motive to commit murder? Behavior is examined. History is examined. Who the person was is examined. Do you think it's proper to say the motive for lynching a black person in the South in the 1950's was racism? How would you prove that? Could it ever be proven to your standard? Take the specific case of Emmett Till. Do you think racism played a role in that murder? If so, how do you know? What specific evidence allows you to conclude that racism drove that murder. If you don't think it drove the crime, explain where your doubts lie. |
1st May 2017, 09:29 AM | #173 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
1st May 2017, 09:32 AM | #174 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
It's one of the most famous cases in American history. There is ample information available. It is a discreet, obvious case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till I think this is instructive. I am legitimately curious if you think that case presents enough information to conclude the murderers were racist driven by racism. Whether you answer yes or no, we will have a great deal to go on. If yes, we can use similar evidence to prove racial bias in other cases; if no, then it's pretty obvious there's not point in discussing any of this. |
1st May 2017, 09:35 AM | #175 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
1st May 2017, 10:50 AM | #176 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
|
First, "racist" and "hardball" are not mutually exclusive, so that's not even a defense.
ASecond, there's a very long history of trying to deny the "american-ness" of black Americans, and birtherism - the belief that Obama is not American despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary - falls directly in line with that tradition.
Quote:
|
1st May 2017, 10:57 AM | #177 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
|
1st May 2017, 10:59 AM | #178 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,628
|
|
1st May 2017, 11:13 AM | #179 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
They compete directly with illegal labor.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Stealing from me again, I've already accused you of this, try to come up with something on your own.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Haha, you want me to make your case for you? Hilarious. You are the one asserting that there is some harm caused by illegal immigration. You are completely incapable of showing that harm.[/quote] I don't have to show harm, reread what this thread is about, it might help your lack of comprehension.
Quote:
The reasons for not having an open border are many. The law is simple enough to secure our borders. If you want to start a thread on why we should have borders, go right ahead. |
1st May 2017, 11:15 AM | #180 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
|
1st May 2017, 11:16 AM | #181 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,628
|
|
1st May 2017, 11:21 AM | #182 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Well, I appreciate your honesty and saving me the time of reading any more of your aimless, sentimental nonsense.
You aren't going to make your case, you aren't going to substantiate your claims, you aren't going to present a rational argument - what are you doing on these boards other than trolling, then? |
1st May 2017, 11:26 AM | #183 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626
|
Anyone that doesn't worship Dear Leader Trump is extreme left.
|
1st May 2017, 11:32 AM | #184 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
|
1st May 2017, 11:34 AM | #185 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
|
1st May 2017, 11:37 AM | #186 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
The concept of race is so artificial/arbitrary that I would prefer the more inclusive term "bigotry." Hutu and Tutsi might look like the same race to white observers a long way away, but a genocide was carried out based on ethnicity.
If someone says "all people from ethnicity x are cockroaches," is this a racist statement? I am not sure. I suppose it could be racist for people to hate meztisos or mulattoes vs. what they see as "pure" white or Aryan people. I don't know exactly what would be pure white but under the 'even one drop" construct I wouldn't be white. The Cher song "Half Breed" might have some truth in it. Two racial groups hating someone because they were half white or half Native American. |
1st May 2017, 11:47 AM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
|
1st May 2017, 11:50 AM | #188 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
Really? Grow up. You said I was saving you time, you wouldn't have to read anymore of my aimless none sense. You are the one tapping out. You also have this immature way of trying to turn things around. When someone says they don't want to read my posts anymore, wouldn't that mean the're tapping out?
|
1st May 2017, 11:53 AM | #189 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
But of course it's not that simple. Rarely do people of this country say "all people from this or that". This country has come a long way from making blanket statements like that, usually its more targeted, people want to go out of their way not to make it about race, as it should be. The left are the ones who are the race pimp profiteers. They use it like a sword, which is a huge reason why they lost.
|
1st May 2017, 11:54 AM | #190 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
At the end of a fight, two people leave the ring. It's the guy still sputtering on the mat begging the refs for help, not the one who strides out with a smile on his face, who gets the L.
If you want to get this going, make a point and we'll go from there. The nexus between illegal immigration and the racism in bias towards "Mexicans" is obvious. You can't just cry to the mods in lieu of making an argument. Whenever you're willing to try and establish a case for illegal immigration being anything other than a minor issue in the US, we can have a discussion. Otherwise, try and muster what little dignity you have left and get on with your day. |
1st May 2017, 11:55 AM | #191 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
|
1st May 2017, 11:59 AM | #192 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
Then post the racism instead of claiming some sort of immature false victory.
Whos crying, my reports are quite targeted and very successful.
Quote:
|
1st May 2017, 12:02 PM | #193 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
|
1st May 2017, 02:24 PM | #194 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
?
You've insinuated I'm a racist, liked this to a cage match and moved goal post so much, we're miles from this thread and then you somehow bring up dignity. Is that somehow a coherent point to you? You're the one who thinks tha whole border issue is racism. You're the one who thought the whole birther issue was racism, and yet you can't point to any racist or anything racist. Go ahead tap out! |
1st May 2017, 02:40 PM | #195 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
|
1st May 2017, 04:17 PM | #196 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
|
1st May 2017, 04:57 PM | #197 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
And yet you cannot offer any other reason. The mere fact that it's illegal isn't a reason as it used to be illegal for African Americans to sit at lunch counters in the South.
Maybe you should hire a trainer before a rematch. Someone to run you through concepts like "argument" or "facts" or "reason." Gonna have to be in way better shape before you try again. |
1st May 2017, 05:24 PM | #198 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
|
The law in question allows the President to direct the Attorney General to use discretion in many kinds of cases, mostly aimed at preventing the breaking up of families where no criminal activity had occurred on the part of the immigrant (civil infractions like false forms and such aside). Obama shifted policy from a somewhat neutral stance to urging the full use of this discretion where allowed (even as he carried out historic levels of total resulting deportations). Despite the fact that Reagan basically created this framework and Congress adopted it into the U.S. Code a few years later, it was vilified by conservatives as "executive overreach" in a perplexing twist.
That has now basically reversed overnight. People are being taken from their spouses and children and ejected from the country because they told little white lies on employment forms. In many cases, they were picked up because they'd already admitted to the charge and were on a probation-like program to meet with an ICE official every so often, break no laws, have valid papers, stay employed, etc. Basically a punishment that is proportionally appropriate to the offense. Nevermind that I and every person I've ever known does the same thing, the absurdity of this is if "immigrant criminals" who are dangerous is the supposed target, then detention facility capacity, court time, and deportation logistics are now being tied up on people who are not dangerous, pose no threat, and that much less is available to deal with the ones who are. It's demagoguery, whether he's genuinely racist or just knows society's capacity for accepting a scapegoat, he's willingly creating pain and anguish, severing mothers from babies, to achieve some goal of his own, very likely for no greater purpose than minimally assuage his ever unquenchable ego. But, in any case, he is not compelled to implement the law the way he is, it specifically allows for him to waive the process of deportation in the event of numerous described scenarios. |
2nd May 2017, 05:00 AM | #199 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
|
|
2nd May 2017, 06:39 AM | #200 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
|
Haha, you are a character. Obviously a one-note character. The act wears thin at roughly the same speed people got tired of hearing, "Dino-MITE."
Around and around you go. You made the assertion, you provide the argument. If it's simple, you shouldn't have any trouble making an actual argument and substantiating it with facts and evidence. Yet post after post it's the same silly nonsense. |
Thread Tools | |
|
|