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22nd May 2017, 08:28 PM | #81 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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22nd May 2017, 08:31 PM | #82 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Isn't it great that Trump supporters are in the thread proving the point?
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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22nd May 2017, 09:14 PM | #83 |
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it seems that many Trump supporters didn't appreciate their Overlord's kowtowing to the Saudis and the becoming a Muslim himself by joining in their silly Sword Dance.
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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22nd May 2017, 09:30 PM | #84 |
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22nd May 2017, 09:34 PM | #85 |
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23rd May 2017, 03:50 AM | #86 |
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It's worse than that. Trump is going to actively hurt those people who voted for him because they are hurting.
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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23rd May 2017, 03:54 AM | #87 |
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23rd May 2017, 03:55 AM | #88 |
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23rd May 2017, 07:31 AM | #89 |
Muse
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I know a lot of Trump voters, but very few Trump supporters (in the sense that they supported Trump in the Primary, or voted for Trump without holding their nose).
This country has become so polarized. People who lean right will vote for Trump as long as they feel that the alternative is a group of anarco-syndicalists who want to remove the first and second amendments and replace it with sharia law. Trump has always had a small hard-core base of voters that are largely not traditional Republican voters, and then a large group of people that would have voted for Satan himself if he was running against someone whose last name was Clinton. Trump is not loved in the Republican sphere. However, most Republicans will support anyone who is perceived to support their power base. As soon as Trump is perceived as being so bad that he is hurting the future power base of the Republican party the majority of Republicans will drop him like a rabid stray cat. Leaving Trump only a small group of supporters who largely vote for Trump because they are hoping he will set the world on fire, and they want to watch it burn to spite everyone else with something to loose. (I know, I know, no one on the left feels that they are close to the caricatures that the right portrays them as. The thing is the average member of the right is not what the left portrays them as either. To some degree, I think both sides are stuck in their own echo-chambers and have no empathy for the point of view of the other.) |
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23rd May 2017, 07:54 AM | #90 |
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Even though I listen to local conservative talk radio, it still amazes me that there are people who take that idea seriously.
I question whether the two perceptions are equivalently inaccurate. It seems to me that the right fears the left for what they imagine the left wants, whereas the left fears the right for what they are actually doing and saying. For all the bluster, Obama never took anyone's guns or enacted Sharia law, for example. Trump, on the other hand, has removed transgender protections, put anti-science people in charge of departments that require science, and is proposing a budget that will cut much needed anti-poverty programs like food stamps and Medicare*. * Medicaid? I can never keep the two straight without looking them up. |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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23rd May 2017, 09:03 AM | #91 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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23rd May 2017, 09:20 AM | #92 |
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“Knowledge is Power; France is Bacon.” |
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23rd May 2017, 09:38 AM | #93 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I know I'm a day late on this, but there is a simple answer why: they are ********.
You can see this in their current support for the President. Why do they still support him despite all the bumbling? Because he is going to screw people over, and likely not them (although that is not guaranteed). I saw a FB meme the other day, praising Trump because he will cut "94 million people off the federal government teat." That is a good thing, that overrides everything. In other words, ****'em. As long as he can screw over poor people, they are happy. Because they are ********. |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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23rd May 2017, 09:40 AM | #94 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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23rd May 2017, 09:43 AM | #95 |
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23rd May 2017, 09:48 AM | #96 |
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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23rd May 2017, 10:15 AM | #97 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Being stupid is not incompatible with the asterisks. Heck, call them stupid ******** if you want, although I don't think stupidity is as ubiquitous as the *******ry. They don't care about others, and, in fact, are happy to see them suffer, even if it means they have to suffer themselves. Call that what you will, but the word I have in mind fits within the asterisks.
Alternatively, you might consider them to be douchebags. [edited to asterisk something that got by the autoreplace) |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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23rd May 2017, 10:16 AM | #98 |
Muse
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Hi Upchurch, You are right about the characterizations on the mass media. Much of our media is keyed on generating “outrage”. I suppose that outrage gets viewers. It also may be because of partisanship and the fact that it is fun to paint your opponents as the worst kind of people as a way of reinforcing one’s own goals. In my lifetime, conservative talk radio was the origin of this. As far as the perceptions go, they may not be equivalent or accurate. However, both camps are guilty of this. Since you brought up gun control, I have heard the denial from the left that neither Obama or the left in general took away any one’s guns. This silly statement only serves to make the right suspicious of the people who say it. There were attempts by the Democrats during Obama’s terms as president to limit gun ownership (Senator Feinstein’s proposed 2013 Assault Weapon Ban bill is the one that caused the Gun Rights community to pound the war drums the loudest during President Obama’s terms.) That the Democrats were not successful was not because they did not try. I will grant you that no popular Democrat has actually suggested an outright repeal of the 2nd amendment, but I doubt any Republican actually claimed that they have (although I will say that the level of outrage on this does become shrill). You have to admit UpChurch that President Obama’s clearly desired to increase the restrictions on the ownership of firearms. He was openly frustrated by the Republicans blocking his attempts during his administration. Are you arguing that the right was wrong in their assessment that the left wanted to increase limits on firearm ownership in the country? I do not see how one can imply that this is an unfounded fear. That the left was not successful during President Obama’s two terms was largely because of the right’s power in congress. I am not defending Trump, nor do I think that people who do not like his actions are wrong in not liking him. (I found myself saying repeatedly in this election that no-mater who you voted against this year, I can understand) I personally hope that the Democrats get an electable candidate the next time around and Trump is a single term president. The fact that some of the far left still seem to not realize that they actively do things that alienate people worries me. |
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23rd May 2017, 10:19 AM | #99 |
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Upthread I linked to this,
I do seriously wonder if that is going to hurt Trump in the CT demographic. |
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23rd May 2017, 10:20 AM | #100 |
Philosopher
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23rd May 2017, 10:39 AM | #101 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Hey how can you justify electing a republican, do you know how much that has hurt the gun industry? Sales dropped off massively the day after the election and are really low. Why do you hate guns so much to want to drive their manufacturers out of business like that?
And the goal is to kill thousands of more americans a year through their health care reforms. That is what the base clearly wants. At least until they get personally sick then they suddenly think their health care is some kind of right. |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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23rd May 2017, 10:45 AM | #102 |
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It is unfounded in that gun control (reasonable or not, depending) is not gun confiscation (taking away guns), it is limiting possession. The gun lobby deliberately conflates the two, thus eliminating any productive discussion on the issue. As a former gun owner, I used to parrot the party line, though I knew it was dishonest.
No U.S. political party advocates gun confiscation. That's just nuts. ETA: I may yet again own firearms as a post-retirement hobby. |
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Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
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23rd May 2017, 10:47 AM | #103 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Push though his health care reforms. It won’t stop them from believing in him, but many of them will die off.
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"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
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23rd May 2017, 10:53 AM | #104 |
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23rd May 2017, 11:06 AM | #105 |
Fiend God
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23rd May 2017, 11:22 AM | #106 |
Disorder of Kilopi
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For one thing, Trump needs more of this to ensure continued success. It's no longer "how you play the game," or even if you win, it's how you mock opponents that counts nowadays in GOP brains, always in ways that would send any rightard into eternal frothing madness if done to them. Imagine, say, a BLM protester "spraying" some good ole boys this way. "OMG, that is so different. For starters, we are good Christian whites, they are not. Nuff said. Get Hannity on the horn, now."
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"His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks." - Da Joik |
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23rd May 2017, 11:33 AM | #107 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Does Melania count as a supporter?
She keeps slapping away Trump like Dikembe Mutumbo in Riyadh the other day and today in Rome.
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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23rd May 2017, 11:36 AM | #108 |
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Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
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23rd May 2017, 11:48 AM | #109 |
Muse
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Hi Turtle,
It depends on which group you mean. I know two Trump “true believers”. They wanted to stop illegal immigration, bring good paying jobs and manufacturing back to the USA, and weed out corruption from the USA government. Those three things were the common talking points both shared with me. I know dozens of Republicans who grudgingly voted for Trump. Their issues tended to be broken down along gender lines. The men overwhelmingly were second amendment voters. They wanted to make sure that a pro second amendment judge was nominated to replace Justice Scalia, and Hillary’s views on the Heller decision was well known. As usual, the woman voters are more complicated. Some still reflexively vote Republican over the abortion issue. That Donald flip-flopped on this issue did not hurt him, as Hillary has not flipped at all. Some of the woman just outright hated Hillary. I am not sure why they hate her as much as they do. These are the people that forwarded tales of “spirit-cooking” Satanism, and child sex rings to each other on the internet. A third group voted for the Donald over issues of security. They saw him as a strong figure that ironically, would keep the USA safe from ISIS and Putin. The “illegal immigrants are criminals” also played into this group. They largely do not care about immigration, except that they are afraid that Muslim terrorists might cross the border with Mexico. They also fear the drug cartel violence spilling over the boarder. None of the trump voters that I know of are worried about gay people. None of these people want to keep out “non-whites”, just terrorists and criminals. Oddly enough, the most vocal Trump “true believers” that I know is the first generation son of a Mexican immigrant. He, like most of the people that are worried about the Mexican immigration issue are worried about illegal immigrants. For most of them, it seems to be a law and order feeling that some of the people crossing the border are likely Drug Cartel agents. I also think that there is a little resentment on my Hispanic friend that his family struggled through the immigration citizenship process the "hard way" and resents illegal immigrants that seem to have easier times of it. But I may be wrong about this. |
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Anything is possible when you don't know what you are talking about. |
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23rd May 2017, 11:53 AM | #110 |
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23rd May 2017, 11:55 AM | #111 |
Muse
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Lol Turtle,
It is ironic that gun prices and gun sales seem to skyrocket when Democrats are elected, and then drop like a rock when Republicans are elected. I am just glad that I can find rim-fire ammunition again. As far as the health care issue goes I am not sure what drives the crazy mess that is our health care system in this country. |
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Anything is possible when you don't know what you are talking about. |
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23rd May 2017, 12:07 PM | #112 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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23rd May 2017, 12:12 PM | #113 |
Papa Funkosophy
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Harry Reid wouldn't even let that bill come to a vote.
Source? Yes. Obama proposed to limitations on selling firearms, namely that all sellers had to perform background checks. There was also something about changing seller license requirements, but I don't remember any details about that. Or, as above, the Democrats preventing it. The thing is, the far left rarely gets into positions of any actual power. The far right does so more and more often. |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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23rd May 2017, 12:17 PM | #114 |
Muse
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Hi Resume,
I hope we are not going to have a debate on the meaning of the word “voluntary”. (lol) If I understand your statement then I cannot agree. If I want to buy an ar-15, but they are illegal to buy or transfer, then that is a ban on ar-15’s (in relation to the proposed 2013 assault rifle ban). The fact that my neighbors already has one just makes me a little more resentful about it. It certainly does not make me more accepting of the ban. Gun confiscation is almost never what the pro-gun side is talking about. The pro-gun side is usually talking about limits on purchasing guns, ammunition, or supplies. The notion that the proposed 2013 assault rifle ban should be acceptable to pro-second amendment types baffles me. However, this may be a bit of topic drift. I am willing to wade through another gun control thread with if you want Resume. I think we may need to start a new thread though; I do not want to gunk this one up. |
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Anything is possible when you don't know what you are talking about. |
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23rd May 2017, 12:20 PM | #115 |
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Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
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23rd May 2017, 12:35 PM | #116 |
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I only know a pretty small number of Trump supporters offline. All of them cited concerns about illegal aliens from Mexico and Muslim refugees as reasons for their support of Trump. They didn't all want a physical border wall and at least a couple of them thought the Muslim ban went too far.
One thing I have noted is that they seem to think that the crackdown on illegal alien gangbangers is a new Trump administration thing - they either don't know or won't accept that the Obama administration was already doing this. Most of those same folks also don't seem to know that the Obama administration was already vetting Muslim refugees pretty carefully. They seem to think it was darn near wide open before Trump. |
23rd May 2017, 12:59 PM | #117 |
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Much to my disappointment, my father voted for Trump. It seems to be entirely because my father hasn't voted for a democrat since LBJ and throwing bombs. My old man was in the military at the time and never forgave LBJs lying about Vietnam. For a nearly 80 year old Irish Catholic from New York, he's actually not that racist or homophobic. I also have one coworker that voted for Trump(maybe more but only one I know of) she basically doesn't pay attention to politics and suspect she might be racist. She talks about moving to New Zealand, which makes no sense given how not progressive she is unless the large white majority figures in.
Anyrate, based on my experience, Trump voters are 50/50 racist/bomb throwers and folks that just can't vote democrat. |
23rd May 2017, 01:13 PM | #118 |
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23rd May 2017, 01:44 PM | #119 |
Muse
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Hi UpChurch,
Concerning the proposed 2013 assault weapons ban, as your link said Harry Reid wouldn’t even allow it to come to a vote because he was sure that it would not pass. I think we are agreement on this, but maybe I am missing your point. I don’t understand when you say that I am not correct in the notion that the right’s fear of the left increasing gun-control restrictions was reasonable. From your link to Wikipedia: “In March 2013, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid decided to leave the proposed ban out of the broader gun control bill, saying that it was unlikely to win 40 votes in the 100-member chamber and that it would jeopardize more widely supported proposals.[31] On the morning of April 17, 2013, Feinstein displayed on the Senate floor a blow-up of a New York Daily News front page with photos of the 20 dead Sandy Hook Elementary School children and the headline, "Shame on U.S."[32][33]Before the vote, she said to her colleagues, "Show some guts." However, as expected,[34] S. 150, the Assault Weapons Ban of 2013, failed on a vote of 40 in favor to 60 in opposition. It was supported by Democrat Reid and Republican Senator Mark Kirk, but 15 Democrats, one independent, and all the Republicans except Kirk voted against the ban.[32] After the vote, Feinstein said that Congress' failure to pass the law would lead a number of states passing their own assault weapons bans. She vowed to keep trying, and said "I believe the American people are far ahead of their elected officials on this issue."[32]”” Harry Reid left Feinstein’s assault bill out because it would not have garnered enough votes. Even though it was defeated, Sen Feinstein vowed to “keep trying” (to pass a similar bill). As per https://projects.propublica.org/repr...3/senate/1/101 The pro votes were almost all Democrats, with the exception of one Republican and one independent. The desire to pass stricter gun-control legislation was coming from the left, and opposed strongly by the right. The Democrats did not prevent the 2013 assault weapons bill, it was a Democratic bill, championed by Sen Feinstein, and co-sponsored by all Democrats. (https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-...150/cosponsors). It was the overwhelmingly Republican no vote that stopped it. I guess in hindsight one could say "see the right won, they had nothing to worry about". But of course nobody on either side actually thinks like that. In relation to my statement “The fact that some of the far left still seem to not realize that they actively do things that alienate people worries me.” I think I was not clear with my intent. I am not claiming that the left is guiltier of this than the right. Our current President revels in alienating his political enemies, and half the time I think he likes to take pot shots at neutral parties and even those on his side that he does not see as strong enough. Of all the things that President Trump does that aggravates me, his needless attacking of people is one of the worst for the long term fiber of the country. Will he eventually make enough Republicans Irate enough that they will start leaving him too? Personally I think he will. I hope the Democrats have someone running who can pick up some of their votes. |
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23rd May 2017, 02:10 PM | #120 |
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Hi Argumemnon,
I don’t know if you are asking me, or people in general. I personally am not worried about them (don’t get me wrong I am not a Trump supporter and found his story of building a wall and making Mexico pay for it to be offensive to my intelligence). From people I know who seem to be worried about them; it seems to come down to one of two things. Fear of crime and terror (Drug Cartel operatives and or ISIS operatives sneaking into the country), and a fear of an exploitable work pool that drives down the wages of real ‘mericans. |
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