IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th January 2023, 01:03 AM   #81
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 19,344
pretty much.

Overclassification is just there to keep people employed and hide embarrassing information from the voters.

We need penalties for classifying something that didn't need classifying.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 06:35 AM   #82
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Not a claim I made.
Ok, switch it to "we do not know" if that helps you save face. Your claim was still wrong, and moving the goalposts from "We do not know the subject matter of those docs" to 'ok, sure, we know the subject was the nuclear secrets of other countries, but we don't know every friggin detail in the docs so I'm still right' is a poor tactic.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 07:09 AM   #83
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section
Posts: 21,213
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ok, switch it to "we do not know" if that helps you save face. Your claim was still wrong, and moving the goalposts from "We do not know the subject matter of those docs" to 'ok, sure, we know the subject was the nuclear secrets of other countries, but we don't know every friggin detail in the docs so I'm still right' is a poor tactic.
Yeah, but you know what he means. Was the information contained in the docs consequential? Or might it have been the works of some underling who dumbed-down a Wikipedia entry on nuclear weapons for Trump's review, that contained nothing but procedurally was classified Top Secret?

Having BS paperwork inadvertently in your stuff is one thing. Having highly sensitive information that could be used against the US might well be treasonous. So yeah, the specific content is relevant.
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 07:23 AM   #84
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 106,908
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
pretty much.

Overclassification is just there to keep people employed and hide embarrassing information from the voters.

We need penalties for classifying something that didn't need classifying.
How do you know there aren't secret procedures to do just that?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 07:23 AM   #85
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,039
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
pretty much.

Overclassification is just there to keep people employed and hide embarrassing information from the voters.

We need penalties for classifying something that didn't need classifying.

Just a slight nitpick, but itís more of a safety measure and convenience thing. Itís probably not a bad idea to classify everything on a secure system by default, rather than risk something slipping by because someone didnít check the box. The problem is more after that, when they should be reviewed and whatever isnít sensitive should get declassified.

Basically, it seems more of a lifecycle problem to me. Things should get reviewed and classification determined at a later date, instead itís Ďeasierí to just accept the default and move on.

And part of that is probably more related to your point; the review and declassification process is burdensome and unwieldy.

Iíd say we need penalties more for lack of proper review.

Just my $.02


Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon.
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 07:30 AM   #86
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, but you know what he means. Was the information contained in the docs consequential? Or might it have been the works of some underling who dumbed-down a Wikipedia entry on nuclear weapons for Trump's review, that contained nothing but procedurally was classified Top Secret?

Having BS paperwork inadvertently in your stuff is one thing. Having highly sensitive information that could be used against the US might well be treasonous. So yeah, the specific content is relevant.
I do think I know what he means. I think he means what he said, that because the documents are classified we do no know the subject matter (with the implication that we cannot/will not know the subject matter). And yet, at least wrt to Trump's documents, we do know the subject matter. And we also know that the nuclear secrets were "above top secret", and so not just dumbed down wikipedia entries.

I'm pretty comfortable with the assumption that what Pence, Biden, etc, had were all things some temp staffer packed in the wrong box by mistake. I don't have any reason to believe that Pence or Biden even knew they had any papers, much less took them on purpose. Trump, though, we know he knew he had stuff because he actively tried to hide it from the feds.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 08:24 AM   #87
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section
Posts: 21,213
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I do think I know what he means. I think he means what he said, that because the documents are classified we do no know the subject matter (with the implication that we cannot/will not know the subject matter). And yet, at least wrt to Trump's documents, we do know the subject matter. And we also know that the nuclear secrets were "above top secret", and so not just dumbed down wikipedia entries.
According to the WaPo and others, nothing was found that was"Above Top Secret". Of the 13,000 docs seized from Mar-A-Lago, there were 103 that were Classified, and 18 Top Secret. One document related to Iran's missile program.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...go-iran-china/

The citation you offered earlier was a verbal chat. Do you have more substantial confirmation? Not trying to defend Trump (I've personally hated him for decades), but just to keep the claims from incremental exaggeration.

Quote:
I'm pretty comfortable with the assumption that what Pence, Biden, etc, had were all things some temp staffer packed in the wrong box by mistake. I don't have any reason to believe that Pence or Biden even knew they had any papers, much less took them on purpose. Trump, though, we know he knew he had stuff because he actively tried to hide it from the feds.
Agreed on Biden and Pence, but I think Trump may have had no idea what he had, and threw one of his classic toddler hissy fits over being asked to comply. If he wanted the docs hidden, he had ample time. They were found pretty much out in the open.
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

Last edited by Thermal; 26th January 2023 at 08:25 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 09:05 AM   #88
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
According to the WaPo and others, nothing was found that was"Above Top Secret". Of the 13,000 docs seized from Mar-A-Lago, there were 103 that were Classified, and 18 Top Secret. One document related to Iran's missile program.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...go-iran-china/
According to this article all information on another country's nuclear capabilities "exist at the so-called Above Top Secret level, because a simple Top Secret clearance on its own isn’t enough to access the files."

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The citation you offered earlier was a verbal chat. Do you have more substantial confirmation? Not trying to defend Trump (I've personally hated him for decades), but just to keep the claims from incremental exaggeration.
As the WaPo article you just cited also states "The Washington Post has previously reported that one of the documents seized in the FBI search described a foreign country’s military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities." I'm not sure what you need confirmed.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed on Biden and Pence, but I think Trump may have had no idea what he had, and threw one of his classic toddler hissy fits over being asked to comply. If he wanted the docs hidden, he had ample time. They were found pretty much out in the open.
Given the levels of classification reported and Trump's famous inability/refusal to read important briefings, I'm really really skeptical of the idea that these docs were just lying around his office and subsequently got packed up by some temp staffer by mistake.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 09:10 AM   #89
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,097
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because we keep getting presidents who are in their nineties? You work in healthcare IT, I know you know of older doctors who get their secretary to print out emails for them to read.
Yep, I worked with a guy who had the office admin print out emails for him. I'm not sure he even had a computer. This was an engineer working up to 2016. He was in his 90s.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
pretty much.

Overclassification is just there to keep people employed and hide embarrassing information from the voters.

We need penalties for classifying something that didn't need classifying.
That might help. Its a standard thing with bureacracies. If you do A and are wrong but there's no penalty, you'll do A if the option is B and if you get it wrong there is a penalty. If there's a penalty for both, you'll probably think about it at least.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I have a secret clearance; I doubt that I would be able to use that as a defense if classified documents were found improperly stored at my home.

Right now I think it is a safe bet that many current or former politicians have classified documents improperly stored at their residence. This will continue to be the norm until the law is actually enforced.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924


Ranb
A. Pence is also guilty of mishandling classified materials.
B. He won't get prosecuted because neither will Biden or Trump. Trump might get prosecuted for obstruction, though he might manage to throw his lawyer under the bus. I really don't understand how he seems to get the sort of loyalty out of people. He clearly doesn't return it.

C. I was Nuclear Reactor Operator in the Navy, practically everything I did and learned was classified. Practically all of it was available in the physics section of the local library. Other than some specific engineering details. I was once investigated for mishandling classified material. I was not prosecuted but they did find out that I had a higher classification level than I was supposed to. That caused more concern than the initial issue. Granted, i just lost a book classifed as no foreign, I didn't have secret documents stored in on my bookshelf.

D. Over classification is clearly a problem. It seems like some agencies just reflexively classify stuff. What it actually is matters a hell of lot. Even if was above top secret or what not. As I said in the other thread, troop movements are highly classified but who care if they date to the first gulf war?

Last edited by ahhell; 26th January 2023 at 09:12 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 09:57 AM   #90
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section
Posts: 21,213
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
According to this article all information on another country's nuclear capabilities "exist at the so-called Above Top Secret level, because a simple Top Secret clearance on its own isn’t enough to access the files."
You think Wired's blurb trump's WaPo, Reuters, and the AP? I'm skeptical.

But more to the point, it does not say all nuclear related information is "Above Top Secret". It lists specific subject criteria. You know that there is a Wikipedia page on Iran's nuclear program, right? Do you see any "Above Top Secret" classification on it? If a White House intern copied it, would they have to classify it "Above Top Secret"? They would, based on your interpretation of the Wired article.

The Wired article also points out that documents classified as "Secret" are no more interesting or informative than watching the evening news. Which is kind of what I am getting at with the classification issue.

Quote:
As the WaPo article you just cited also states "The Washington Post has previously reported that one of the documents seized in the FBI search described a foreign country’s military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities." I'm not sure what you need confirmed.
What I need confirmed is what I asked you to confirm. You know, that documents seized at Mar-A-Largo we're classified as "Above Top Secret". There is no reputable reporting anywhere of your claim, and the Wired article is speaking in generalities, having no idea whatsoever if the contents of the docs meet the requirements for that higher classification. Weak-ass implying on their part, and poor journalism.

Quote:
Given the levels of classification reported and Trump's famous inability/refusal to read important briefings, I'm really really skeptical of the idea that these docs were just lying around his office and subsequently got packed up by some temp staffer by mistake.
Well they were in fact just found lying around in a storeroom. If the one Iranian document, and even the other 17 "Top Secret" ones were of consequence, don't you think he would have pulled them out and hid them separately under the floorboards or something? Why put them in the #1 most obvious place (in boxes with the others out in the open)?
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

Last edited by Thermal; 26th January 2023 at 09:59 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 10:17 AM   #91
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Really? You're equating not knowing everything that is packed by others as "evading responsibility for what's in their home"? You do realize that Biden and Pence were dealing with matters more important than supervising the movers, don't you?
Yes really. If the former VP's are allowing access to their classified material, perhaps they should be ensuring that the movers are authorized to handle those documents and that the end location is an authorized storage area. Some one needs to know this stuff. If it was in the custody of the former VP's and moved to their homes, then they need to be responsible.

Movers with access to a safe or other container used to store classified information are packaging up material to be stored in private home that is not an authorized storage location?

Can you explain how movers with the required clearance to handle classified material improperly stored it at the homes of Biden or Pence? Or explain why movers without a security clearance were allowed access to classified information so it could be moved to a private residence where it did not belong?

I understand it is possible that a member of the VP's staff packaged these documents in an improper manner and left them in a location so that uncleared movers could ship them. But this stuff has to stop; and it never will until someone is held accountable.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 10:21 AM   #92
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
pretty much.

Overclassification is just there to keep people employed and hide embarrassing information from the voters.

We need penalties for classifying something that didn't need classifying.
I'm a derivative classifier; much more boring than it sounds. I stamp certain things (like radiation surveys on ships) as classified to varying degrees. There are are procedures to reduce over classifying, but no one I know is willing to risk their job by "under classifying". I'm not aware of any penalties for over-classifying.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 10:27 AM   #93
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
C. I was Nuclear Reactor Operator in the Navy, practically everything I did and learned was classified.
I was an ELT on various subs. I think the only stuff related to the propulsion plant that was not classified at least confidential was the piping tabs. I tried to get the CO to tell me what was in the reserved portion of the rad chem and radcon manuals, but he refused, of course.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 10:36 AM   #94
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You think Wired's blurb trump's WaPo, Reuters, and the AP? I'm skeptical.
No, as WaPo, Reuters, and the AP didn't actually weigh on on that I don't think there is any contradiction.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But more to the point, it does not say all nuclear related information is "Above Top Secret". It lists specific subject criteria. You know that there is a Wikipedia page on Iran's nuclear program, right? Do you see any "Above Top Secret" classification on it? If a White House intern copied it, would they have to classify it "Above Top Secret"? They would, based on your interpretation of the Wired article.
Man, the weird mental gymnastics one must make to try to exonerate a guy that you have personally hated for decades. Tell you what, you find me something in WaPo, Rueters, the AP, or any other reputable source that says this was nothing more than a wiki page printed out. Until you do that, I'm going to stick with the reporting in the WaPo, Rueters, the AP, etc, that talked about how these were "top-level analysis papers." (again direct quote from your WaPo article. Did you even read it?)

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The Wired article also points out that documents classified as "Secret" are no more interesting or informative than watching the evening news. Which is kind of what I am getting at with the classification issue.
Sure, some things are over classified. That doesn't mean everything is, and it definitely doesn't mean the 'top-level analysis of a foreign country's military defenses including nuclear capabilities' is.


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What I need confirmed is what I asked you to confirm. You know, that documents seized at Mar-A-Largo we're classified as "Above Top Secret". There is no reputable reporting anywhere of your claim, and the Wired article is speaking in generalities, having no idea whatsoever if the contents of the docs meet the requirements for that higher classification. Weak-ass implying on their part, and poor journalism.
Dude. You weren't clear on what you were asking, especially because the cite you mentioned was specifically that we knew the subject of some of Trump's classified documents, contra slyjoe's claim.

But, as evidenced by the article you cited, your wiki defense is complete hogwash. So I don't need to come up with anything else as you've already proved your bending over backwards to give Trump the benefit of the doubt put your head in the predictable place such contortions would.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well they were in fact just found lying around in a storeroom. If the one Iranian document, and even the other 17 "Top Secret" ones were of consequence, don't you think he would have pulled them out and hid them separately under the floorboards or something? Why put them in the #1 most obvious place (in boxes with the others out in the open)?
Sigh, sure. Trump's lax security after he stole the documents proves that despite his famous aversion to reading printed documents he actually had scores of written classified "top-level analyses" laying around the oval office to accidentally get packed up. And then they were accidentally moved when he was notified the feds were going to come looking for them.

Last edited by wareyin; 26th January 2023 at 10:39 AM.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 11:23 AM   #95
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section
Posts: 21,213
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
No, as WaPo, Reuters, and the AP didn't actually weigh on on that I don't think there is any contradiction.



Man, the weird mental gymnastics one must make to try to exonerate a guy that you have personally hated for decades. Tell you what, you find me something in WaPo, Rueters, the AP, or any other reputable source that says this was nothing more than a wiki page printed out. Until you do that, I'm going to stick with the reporting in the WaPo, Rueters, the AP, etc, that talked about how these were "top-level analysis papers." (again direct quote from your WaPo article. Did you even read it?)



Sure, some things are over classified. That doesn't mean everything is, and it definitely doesn't mean the 'top-level analysis of a foreign country's military defenses including nuclear capabilities' is.




Dude. You weren't clear on what you were asking, especially because the cite you mentioned was specifically that we knew the subject of some of Trump's classified documents, contra slyjoe's claim.

But, as evidenced by the article you cited, your wiki defense is complete hogwash. So I don't need to come up with anything else as you've already proved your bending over backwards to give Trump the benefit of the doubt put your head in the predictable place such contortions would.



Sigh, sure. Trump's lax security after he stole the documents proves that despite his famous aversion to reading printed documents he actually had scores of written classified "top-level analyses" laying around the oval office to accidentally get packed up. And then they were accidentally moved when he was notified the feds were going to come looking for them.
Wareyin. Brah. I was asking about your claim, which I hadn't heard before, that there were documents classified as "Above Top Secret". I had not heard this before from anyone reputable. It would have saved a lot of time if you just acknowledged you were making **** up.
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 11:42 AM   #96
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wareyin. Brah. I was asking about your claim, which I hadn't heard before, that there were documents classified as "Above Top Secret". I had not heard this before from anyone reputable. It would have saved a lot of time if you just acknowledged you were making **** up.
Brah, if by "making **** up" you meant "quoting a news article" then you're right. I know you do like to use weird definitions (fetish somehow not having a sexual connotation, for instance) that the rest of us don't so it's entirely possible that this is exactly what you meant.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 01:11 PM   #97
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 28,684
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Yes really. If the former VP's are allowing access to their classified material, perhaps they should be ensuring that the movers are authorized to handle those documents and that the end location is an authorized storage area. Some one needs to know this stuff. If it was in the custody of the former VP's and moved to their homes, then they need to be responsible.

Movers with access to a safe or other container used to store classified information are packaging up material to be stored in private home that is not an authorized storage location?

Can you explain how movers with the required clearance to handle classified material improperly stored it at the homes of Biden or Pence? Or explain why movers without a security clearance were allowed access to classified information so it could be moved to a private residence where it did not belong?

I understand it is possible that a member of the VP's staff packaged these documents in an improper manner and left them in a location so that uncleared movers could ship them. But this stuff has to stop; and it never will until someone is held accountable.
I agree it has to stop and the investigation needs to find who screwed up...but I don't agree that either Biden or Pence is responsible for what the packers did. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 01:22 PM   #98
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 28,684
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
>snipped<

Agreed on Biden and Pence, but I think Trump may have had no idea what he had, and threw one of his classic toddler hissy fits over being asked to comply. If he wanted the docs hidden, he had ample time. They were found pretty much out in the open.
Yes and no. I don't think he initially knew the vast majority of the content in those boxes. However, I think he purposefully took certain things that he wanted, including Kim Jong-un's 'love letters' and the letter Obama left him when he moved into the WH. I also wouldn't be a bit surprised if he took things he thought he could use as leverage over others and/or use against his 'enemies'. He's shown himself repeatedly to be a petty and vengeful POS.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 02:30 PM   #99
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,022
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
According to the WaPo and others, nothing was found that was"Above Top Secret". Of the 13,000 docs seized from Mar-A-Lago, there were 103 that were Classified, and 18 Top Secret. One document related to Iran's missile program.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...go-iran-china/

The citation you offered earlier was a verbal chat. Do you have more substantial confirmation? Not trying to defend Trump (I've personally hated him for decades), but just to keep the claims from incremental exaggeration.
More sources than the WAPo? They're not a source to post rumors without vetting the information.



Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed on Biden and Pence, but I think Trump may have had no idea what he had, and threw one of his classic toddler hissy fits over being asked to comply. If he wanted the docs hidden, he had ample time. They were found pretty much out in the open.
He's stupid but not that stupid.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 26th January 2023 at 02:31 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 02:43 PM   #100
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,097
The problem with Trump is that hanlon's razor completely fails in regards to him. Most of is bad actions are equally plausibly due to incompetence or mafeasence.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 03:19 PM   #101
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 93,022
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well they were in fact just found lying around in a storeroom. If the one Iranian document, and even the other 17 "Top Secret" ones were of consequence, don't you think he would have pulled them out and hid them separately under the floorboards or something? Why put them in the #1 most obvious place (in boxes with the others out in the open)?
Assumes facts not in evidence—mainly that Trump is smart. There were of course, all the empty folders.

And there is the fact the Saudis were bestowing millions on Trump laundered through his golf courses, and a couple billion claimed to be an investment Jared would manage.

In front of cameras when he was newly elected he bragged about and gave away classified information about our satellite capabilities. And the Saudi Prince purged his family members after Trump was in office thereby solidifying his power, probably using a list Trump provided. There was no one left in positions of power to confront Trump. They had been or were all in the process of being replaced by Trump.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 26th January 2023 at 03:20 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 03:23 PM   #102
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 53,023
Originally Posted by Woolgatherer View Post
You know that "secret classified documents" is just code for wanking. All presidents wank, just some do it more than others.
Speaking of codes for wanking, this is an oldy but goodie:

CORRECTION: BUSH FAINTS AFTER "CHOKING THE PRETZEL," NOT "CHOKING ON PRETZEL"
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 03:33 PM   #103
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 13,681
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Assumes facts not in evidence—mainly that Trump is smart. There were of course, all the empty folders.

And there is the fact the Saudis were bestowing millions on Trump laundered through his golf courses, and a couple billion claimed to be an investment Jared would manage.

In front of cameras when he was newly elected he bragged about and gave away classified information about our satellite capabilities. And the Saudi Prince purged his family members after Trump was in office thereby solidifying his power, probably using a list Trump provided. There was no one left in positions of power to confront Trump. They had been or were all in the process of being replaced by Trump.
I suspect there could be a simpler explanation: The issue is that empty folders do not automatically indicate that the missing contents match any label. The folder label may be "NUCULAR LAUNCH SHHH! CODES DON'T TELL ANYONE!", but the contents could be nothing like that and far more mundane. So perhaps all these empties were simply to get Trump to actually read something presented by his underlings. Since Trump likes acting important, just present these documents in a "Top Secret DO NOT READ!" folder could have incentivised the recalcitrant reader to actually look at the ******* thing for a change. Could have been his rally speeches, or the Mar-a-Lago gardeners' salary checks, for all we know.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

Last edited by Norman Alexander; 26th January 2023 at 03:34 PM.
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 03:40 PM   #104
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,726
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I suspect there could be a simpler explanation: The issue is that empty folders do not automatically indicate that the missing contents match any label. The folder label may be "NUCULAR LAUNCH SHHH! CODES DON'T TELL ANYONE!", but the contents could be nothing like that and far more mundane. So perhaps all these empties were simply to get Trump to actually read something presented by his underlings. Since Trump likes acting important, just present these documents in a "Top Secret DO NOT READ!" folder could have incentivised the recalcitrant reader to actually look at the ******* thing for a change. Could have been his rally speeches, or the Mar-a-Lago gardeners' salary checks, for all we know.
Rumor is they had to carpetbomb his name throughout daily reports just so that he would pay attention long enough to get through them. I would bet if they put "Trump only" as a classification status he'd read them all, or at least have someone read them to him. Words bigger than "the" tend to give him issues.
__________________
ďThere are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.Ē - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 03:57 PM   #105
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 13,681
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Rumor is they had to carpetbomb his name throughout daily reports just so that he would pay attention long enough to get through them.
Perhaps to the point they had a stash of empty TOP SECRET folders as part of that ruse.

Quote:
I would bet if they put "Trump only" as a classification status he'd read them all, or at least have someone read them to him. Words bigger other than "the" tend to give him issues.
He IS that lazy.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 04:24 PM   #106
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,851
Solution? DoD funded the research into it, so....
There is a thing called 'smart paper" which can have an encrypted code sent as it move in and around authorized places. It has existed for a while, but each sheet is rather expensive. At this point, who care if classified paper costs $50m. That is pennies compared to the havoc it causes when they are missing.

So if a document gets tracked to a Pres or VP's location (where sensors would be placed to 'accept' the document), then it will be way easier to know that it has been misfiled, lost, or in a mover's van. Every document that entered should be accounted for.
Younger leaders of the executive branch might do much better with such things.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2023, 08:48 PM   #107
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,343
An overview of the problem of classification:
Quote:
One 2004 essay put the number of classified pages in existence at about 7.5 billion. In 2012, records were classified at a rate of 3 per second, making for an estimated 95 million classifications that year alone. Today, no one knows how frequently information is classified. And as of 2019, more than 4 million people were eligible to access classified information, about one-third for top secret records, the highest general designation.

The real scandal is that the U.S. government has a totally out-of-control system of secrets that represents a real danger to the quality of democratic government.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ccountability/
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2023, 02:44 AM   #108
gabeygoat
Graduate Poster
 
gabeygoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hard Corvallis Oregon
Posts: 1,641
Originally Posted by mikegriffith1 View Post
I've worked in the military intelligence field for many years. .
that's a bummer
__________________
"May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq
gabeygoat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2023, 07:15 AM   #109
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 42,380
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The best we got from a Navy move was the movers packed the coffeemaker with half a pot of coffee in it. They could at least have stuffed the rest of the box with classified documents to soak it up!
A friend of mine literally had the movers take dirty dishes, caked on food and all, out of the dishwasher, carefully wrap them newspaper, box them up, and ship them across the length of the continent from San Diego to Kingsbay.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2023, 07:16 AM   #110
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 42,380
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The problem with Trump is that hanlon's razor completely fails in regards to him. Most of is bad actions are equally plausibly due to incompetence or mafeasence.
When the stupidity is intentional and the result of planned effort, any distinction between incompetency and malice disappears.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2023, 09:47 PM   #111
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,663
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...sot-nr-vpx.cnn

Pence says "mistakes were made". Of course. But Pence's lapse in the handling of classified material is far less worse than Trump's, considering his response to the incident.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2023, 09:58 PM   #112
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section
Posts: 21,213
Pence has this and J6 going for him now, legacy-wise. I'll take it
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:13 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.