IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd February 2023, 12:05 PM   #3881
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 53,023
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Don't really have to. Don't really see me publishing any papers anytime soon.
The problem isn't that you can't publish papers. It's that you can't even understand the papers you cite.

Quote:
what I do understand is the premise...
No, you don't. You really, really don't. You don't understand any physics, you don't know any math, you do not have the intellectual tools to understand anything being discussed.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd February 2023, 02:20 PM   #3882
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Current Sheets, Plasmoids and Flux Ropes in the Heliosphere

So your assertion based of a 1938 paper is not correct, unsurprisingly!
So, let's first have a look at the list of authors for that paper;

O. Pezzi, F. Pecora, J. le Roux, N. E. Engelbrecht, A. Greco, S. Servidio, H. V. Malova, O. V. Khabarova, O. Malandraki, R. Bruno, W. H. Matthaeus, G. Li, L. M. Zelenyi, R. A. Kislov, V. N. Obridko & V. D. Kuznetsov

We'll come back to a few of them.

Let's also look at some of the papers referenced in that paper;

F.V. Coroniti, On the tearing mode in quasi-neutral sheets. J. Geophys. Res. 85(A12), 6719–6728 (1980)

P.L. Pritchett, F.V. Coroniti, V.K. Decyk, Three-dimensional stability of thin quasi-neutral current sheets. J. Geophys. Res. 101(A12), 27413–27430 (1996)

M.I. Sitnov, H.V. Malova, A.T.Y. Lui, Quasi-neutral sheet tearing instability induced by electron preferential acceleration from stochasticity. J. Geophys. Res. 102(A1), 163–174 (1997) (I believe the latter author is known to Tusenfem. The second author is a co-author on the paper Sol88 linked!)

Back to the authors of this paper that Sol, for reasons known only to himself, thinks contradicts Alfven's claim that the solar wind has to be net neutral;

Let's just concentrate on the lead author and a couple of others, whose papers I have already dealt with on here;

O. Pezzi, H. V. Malova, & O. V. Khabarova.

(Bolded authors are co-authors of the Pezzi, et al paper linked by Sol.)

Differential kinetic dynamics and heating of ions in the turbulent solar wind
F Valentini, D Perrone, S Stabile, O Pezzi, S Servidio, R De Marco, F Marcucci, R Bruno, B Lavraud, J De Keyser, G Consolini, D Brienza, L Sorriso-Valvo, A Retinò, A Vaivads, M Salatti and P Veltri

Originally Posted by Valentini, et al
In this model...The displacement current is neglected and quasi-neutrality is assumed.

Multilayered structure of thin current sheets: multiscale ”Matreshka” model
A. S. Sharma, L. M. Zelenyi, H. V. Malova, V. Yu. Popov, & D. C. Delcourt

Originally Posted by Sharma, et al
The electrons are considered magnetized with finite inertia across the field lines and negligible inertia for field-aligned motion. The resulting charge separation generates an ambipolar electric field Ez supporting the quasi-neutrality of the plasma.

Universal Scaling of Thin Current Sheets
L. M. Zelenyi, H. V. Malova, E. E. Grigorenko, V. Yu Popov,
and E. M. Dubinin

Originally Posted by Zelenyi, et al
...due to plasma quasi‐neutrality ion and electron densities are almost equal: ni = ne ~ n;

PARTICLE DYNAMICS IN THE RECONNECTING HELIOSPHERIC CURRENT SHEET: SOLAR WIND DATA VERSUS THREE-DIMENSIONAL PARTICLE-IN-CELL SIMULATIONS
Zharkova, V. V. & Khabarova, O. V. (2012)

Quote:
Note that the average charge density over the simulation region is close to zero, which mean that the current sheet as a whole remains electrically neutral.
I could go on, but it is getting boring. Suffice to say that Sol's claim that the paper he linked contradicts Alfven's 'zero net current' claim form 1939, is due to his inability to understand what he is reading and quoting. Surprising absolutely nobody.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin

Last edited by jonesdave116; 2nd February 2023 at 02:40 PM.
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd February 2023, 05:54 PM   #3883
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The problem isn't that you can't publish papers. It's that you can't even understand the papers you cite.



No, you don't. You really, really don't. You don't understand any physics, you don't know any math, you do not have the intellectual tools to understand anything being discussed.


yeah...nah, nice confabulation!

The problem was YOUR (mainstream Models)

Quote:
Abstract

Our understanding of processes occurring in the heliosphere historically began
with reduced dimensionality - one-dimensional (1D) and two-dimensional (2D) sketches
and models, which aimed to illustrate views on large-scale structures in the solar wind. However,
any reduced dimensionality vision of the heliosphere limits the possible interpretations
of in-situ observations. Accounting for non-planar structures, e.g. current sheets, magnetic
islands, flux ropes as well as plasma bubbles, is decisive to shed the light on a variety of
phenomena, such as particle acceleration and energy dissipation.
Current Sheets, Plasmoids and Flux Ropes in the Heliosphere

When you do use the correct model,
Quote:
Modern theories and observational studies describe the HCS and similarly strong CSs as
essentially non-planar complex plasma structures surrounded by a plasma sheet in which numerous
small-scale reconnecting CSs separated by plasmoids occur (Khabarova et al. 2015;
Malova et al. 2018; Adhikari et al. 2019; Mingalev et al. 2019). CSs are unstable in natural
plasmas. Owing to the constantly changing environment, CSs are subject to different instabilities,
including the tearing instability (Zelenyi et al. 1998, 2004; Tenerani et al. 2015a).

These instabilities may impact CSs simultaneously with various fluctuations, destabilizing,
triggering nonlinear processes at CSs and even destroying them. Therefore, strong quasistable
CSs, such as the HCS and CSs at leading edges of ICMEs and CIRs/SIRs, represent a well-known source of turbulence and intermittency. On the other hand, numerous thin and
unstable CSs are generated in turbulent and intermittent regions (e.g., Servidio et al. (2009),
Matthaeus et al. (2015)). This dualism reflects an intrinsic tie between instabilities,
Basically the Solar Wind is not some homogeneous plasma the has equal numbers of + and -. In fact
Quote:
Summarizing the results of studies of particle acceleration associated with magnetic
reconnection, we would like to stress out the fact that, besides the obvious role of the
reconnection-induced electric field, charged particles can be energized by the first- and
second-order Fermi mechanisms and the so-called anti-reconnection electric field operating
during contraction and merging of FRs/plasmoids/MIs (Zank et al. 2014; le Roux et al.
2015, 2016, 2019; Xia and Zharkova 2018, 2020).
The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE are not really concerned with magnetogravity of the mainstream in the least. Electric fields, Electric Currents...Electric Universe!

Quote:
CSs, FRs/MIs, and plasmoids/blobs of various origins and scales exist in the turbulent
solar wind


The solar wind is chockablok with electric currents!

Were you aware of this FACT?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd February 2023, 06:47 PM   #3884
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
SNIPPED the



I could go on, but it is getting boring. Suffice to say that Sol's claim that the paper he linked contradicts Alfven's 'zero net current' claim form 1939, is due to his inability to understand what he is reading and quoting. Surprising absolutely nobody.
So easy to shoot yourself in the foot, jd116.

READ CAREFULLY

Quote:
CSs, FRs/MIs, and plasmoids/blobs of various origins and scales exist in the turbulent solar wind
Cant happen in your (and Alfven's) solar wind. It really seems a case here with other posters that
Quote:
Modern views on this point
suggest that both the loops and HCS folding/rippling exist but at far smaller scales, produced
by local dynamical processes (see Part I, Sect. 2.3.1).

Modern theories and observational studies describe the HCS and similarly strong CSs as
essentially non-planar complex plasma structures surrounded by a plasma sheet in which numerous
small-scale reconnecting CSs separated by plasmoids occur (Khabarova et al. 2015;
Malova et al. 2018; Adhikari et al. 2019; Mingalev et al. 2019).

We admit
that the lack of 3D models due to an obvious complexity of their building as well as the insufficiency
of multi-spacecraft data to restore 3D structures are disadvantages of the modern
theoretical and observational approaches. Meanwhile, we can conclude that employing contemporary
2D models and corresponding simplified methods widely used in space science
allows general understanding of the numerous complex processes if one initially considers
various possible 3D topologies occurring in the real space plasmas.
seem not to be understood, including the so called super duper space plasma physicist.



The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE mob have indeed initially consider the 3D models. jd116 seems way back in history still, why is this
Quote:
The transition from the
2D to 3D models to describe complex 3D processes and non-planar structures in the solar
wind is the next step of the development of heliospheric physics.
so hard for the posters here to transition.

It's almost like they seem threatened by the alternative.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd February 2023, 07:01 PM   #3885
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
The solar wind @jd116's scale is indeed homogeneous quasi-neutral plasma and no net current anywhere, doing anything.

The modern, mid 2000's on, is showing this interpretation to be totally incorrect. Pretty confident the Parker Solar Probe will upset the current paradigm.

These Electric currents (Birkeland currents for brevity)
Quote:
CSs, FRs/MIs, and plasmoids/blobs of various origins and scales exist in the turbulent
solar wind
in the heliosphere.

Including,
Quote:
"The fast solar wind helped to maintain the magnetic field signature over such a large distance. If it can persist as far as Ulysses, there's no reason to presume that it wouldn't continue to the edge of the heliosphere (the boundary about 100AU from the Sun between the solar wind and the interstellar medium)," says Jones, "This discovery makes us wonder whether Ulysses or other spacecraft have crossed a comet tail before. So we're going back to look again for other signatures. But it's probably a rare event," says Jones
PR 24-2000: Ulysses Feels the Brush of a Comet's Tail

There will also be a return current. As jd116 says.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 12:48 AM   #3886
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6,665
It appears to me that Sol88’s EU is a version of the God of the Gaps argument: So far nothing indicates that EU is right, but there is still hope! The solar wind is more complicated than previously thought, so maybe EU can still topple all physics and be right after all! The Parker Solar Probe may still deliver results that could topple all of physics! Maybe another probe in a 100 years could prove EU right after all.

Hope is vanishing, but as long as magic is possible in some far future result, EU could still be right!

All electric phenomena are Birkeland currents! Plasma is not a gas!
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 05:20 AM   #3887
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

Basically the Solar Wind is not some homogeneous plasma the has equal numbers of + and -. In fact
Yes, it has to have ~ equal numbers of positive and negative charges in it. And nobody is claiming any differently.

Quote:
The solar wind is chockablok with electric currents!

Were you aware of this FACT?
Yes, we have already told you that there are currents within the solar wind. That does not make the solar wind a current. As Alfven explained in terms a 12 year old could understand. Learn to read.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin

Last edited by jonesdave116; 3rd February 2023 at 05:36 AM.
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 05:25 AM   #3888
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

READ CAREFULLY
Irony much, from someone who hasn't got a clue about what he is reading?


Quote:
Cant happen in your (and Alfven's) solar wind.
Yes it can. And nobody is claiming any differently.


Quote:
The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE mob have indeed initially consider the 3D models. jd116 seems way back in history still, why is this so hard for the posters here to transition.
The EU loons haven't got a clue about plasma physics. They have precisely no-one qualified in the subject, and nobody with a clue about the subject. Nor have they ever performed any sort of plasma modelling.

Quote:
It's almost like they seem threatened by the alternative.

You don't have an alternative. It doesn't exist.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 05:30 AM   #3889
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

The modern, mid 2000's on, is showing this interpretation to be totally incorrect. Pretty confident the Parker Solar Probe will upset the current paradigm.
No it hasn't, and nobody with a clue is claiming otherwise. Which is why you can't show anyone claiming otherwise.

Quote:
These Electric currents (Birkeland currents for brevity) in the heliosphere.
There are no Birkeland currents in the heliosphere, other than those that exist in planetary magnetospheres.

Quote:
Which is not a Birkeland current! Learn to read. The only current you are getting in a cometary tail is a cross-tail current. Which is not a field-aligned current, and therefore cannot be a Birkeland current. As has already been explained to you.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 06:21 AM   #3890
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

The modern, mid 2000's on, is showing this interpretation to be totally incorrect. Pretty confident the Parker Solar Probe will upset the current paradigm.
Is a lie. And there is a very easy way to settle the question. Sol merely has to name the author/s he thinks have shown that the solar wind is not net neutral at macroscopic scales. Then I'll contact them. Loser never posts on here again. Deal?

I think we all know that Sol will avoid such a deal with yet another gish-gallop of wilful ignorance.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 06:34 AM   #3891
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 53,023
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE mob have indeed initially consider the 3D models.
So where are their calculations?

It doesn't mean anything to "consider" a model if you don't do any calculations.

Quote:
It's almost like they seem threatened by the alternative.
The EU is threatened by arithmetic. I don't think mainstream physics is scared of them.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 07:52 AM   #3892
ferd burfle
Graduate Poster
 
ferd burfle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
Posts: 1,582
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So where are their calculations?

It doesn't mean anything to "consider" a model if you don't do any calculations.

The EU is threatened by arithmetic. I don't think mainstream physics is scared of them.

I’m working on a screenplay for a movie about the EU proponents titled The Fear of All Sums. It’s a comedy, of course.
__________________
What are the odds something bad will happen to a submarine in a Godzilla movie?-Brandon
ferd burfle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 09:38 AM   #3893
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
The solar wind, as Alfven described (quoting earlier work from Schuster) is net neutral. And there is nobody who understands even basic astro and plasma physics who disagrees that it must be so. It is impossible for it not to be so. As should be obvious to anyone with a clue. One can only surmise, therefore, that those claiming otherwise do not have a clue. And, given that these claims only exist in the minds of unqualified laymen, and not in the scientific literature, they can be safely ignored in the same way that flat earth is ignored.

If the Sun is losing an excess of one charge over the other, how is it not charging up to the opposite charge? What stops it? How does it happen? Want to point us to a peer-reviewed paper?
Bumping the bolded part as it was predictably ignored.

Added to which it can be asked where are the gamma rays from the impossible fusion on the surface? Why aren't they there? Why are we here if such fusion was impossibly occurring?

Where are the incoming electrons that Scott requires? How are they getting past a magnetic field heading in the opposite direction?

All these questions cannot be answered by the adherents of the impossible electric sun woo.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 04:33 PM   #3894
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Key to understanding solar explosions boobtooob vid.

Did you see the jet?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 04:39 PM   #3895
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So where are their calculations?

It doesn't mean anything to "consider" a model if you don't do any calculations.



The EU is threatened by arithmetic. I don't think mainstream physics is scared of them.
Well there’s one.

Quote:
A “jet”?

__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:39 AM   #3896
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 53,023
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Well there’s one.
Notice what's missing from that paper: even a single calculated physical value for anything. The only comparison they ever make to real data is some vague visual similarities between pictures. I can do that too.



Not impressive.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:45 AM   #3897
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Well there’s one.



A “jet”?

And he screwed up the equations in that 'paper', as was discussed here and elsewhere. That is why it only exists in a predatory, non-peer-reviewed, pseudoscience rag.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM   #3898
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Notice what's missing from that paper: even a single calculated physical value for anything. The only comparison they ever make to real data is some vague visual similarities between pictures. I can do that too.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...a6a2f89a59.jpghttp://www.internationalskeptics.com...a6a50f25e0.jpg

Not impressive.
Vague similarities?

That’s why I read the whole couple pages dedicated to plasma is a gas… it’s not it plasma, of which there is a zoo of types.

Do you accept that mainstream, with the clarity of the correct mode/model of plasma instability being applied, will come to the realisation that the solar wind is far more complex than just being a quasi neutral zephyr?

Data, from a number of mission to various planets n moons, asteroids, comets(great solar plasma probes) and thru the suns plasma boundaries, looks pretty solid when it includes current driven plasma instabilities.

Or

Is all a bit confronting?
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:12 PM   #3899
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post

Do you accept that mainstream, with the clarity of the correct mode/model of plasma instability being applied, will come to the realisation that the solar wind is far more complex than just being a quasi neutral zephyr?
Real scientists already know what the solar wind is, and what it contains. It is quasi-neutral at macroscopic scales. And has to be. As Alfven explained.
There is nothing proposed by EU non-scientists that anybody needs to take any notice of, as none of them have a clue about plasma physics, or even know what the solar wind is.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM   #3900
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
And he screwed up the equations in that 'paper', as was discussed here and elsewhere. That is why it only exists in a predatory, non-peer-reviewed, pseudoscience rag.
No.

Scott hit the nail on the head… the hang up was here, as I recall;

Quote:
One of the most extensive reviews of force-free currents in a cylindrical geometry by Botha & Evangelidis [25] con- tains several references to similar studies.

However, none of these investigators make the simplest assumptions: adopt a piece-wise linear approach, assume α to be any scalar value, and assume no variation of j or B in either the azimuthal or axial directions.

Such simplifications may not be justified on the solar surface, but are in deep space. Therefore, we derive here a simple solution that follows from this and carefully note the effect of the parameter α on the resulting model.
Scott Currents? Less turbulent plasmas.

Highly turbulent plasmas like the solar wind close to the stars, HH objects, AGN’s, quasars…, flux ropes seems the most common term used. Happy to call them Parker Currents. Seems these currents have not had time to get field aligned.

Birkeland current in planetary plasmaspheres.

ALL need an electric field.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator

Last edited by Sol88; Yesterday at 01:44 PM.
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM   #3901
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Quote:
Observations have shown that these loops have axially uniform cross‐sections (Bellan 2003). Their very small inverse aspect ratios are often used to justify the neglect of curvature and to model them as straight cylinders, which is known as the thin flux tube approximation (see Zhugzhda 1996; Van der Linden & Hood 1999; Lothian & Browning 2000, and references therein). Coronal loops are line‐tied to the photosphere (Berger 1991). As such, boundary conditions at the ends of the cylindrical axis are important, as the coronal physics are influenced by conditions at the photosphere and chromosphere (Aschwanden, Nightingale & Alexander 2000). As the solar wind moves away from the Sun, it carries the coronal flux tubes along with it.

More specifically, coronal mass ejections (Low 2001) form solar flux ropes (also known as interplanetary magnetic clouds) as they move in the solar wind away from the Sun.

Usually the plasma β≪ 1 for these flux ropes (Burlaga 1988), and Shimazu & Vandas (2002) have shown that as the flux ropes expand due to the ambient pressure decrease with distance from the Sun, they maintain a force‐free state. As such, the flux ropes are modelled locally as infinitely long cylinders described by linear force‐free magnetic fields (Burlaga 1988; Lepping et al. 2001; Berdichevsky, Lepping & Farrugia 2003).
Cylindrical linear force‐free magnetic fields with toroidal flux surfaces G. J. J. Botha, E. A. Evangelidis


Jd116, you may benefit from jotting this down somewhere….

More specifically, coronal mass ejections (Low 2001) form solar flux ropes (also known as interplanetary magnetic clouds) as they move in the solar wind away from the Sun.


They, being the multitude of electric currents and current driven instabilities.

Plasma is not a gas and the solar wind is not quasi neutral.

__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:04 PM   #3902
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
No.

Scott hit the nail on the head… the hang up was here, as I recall;



Scott Currents? Less turbulent plasmas.

Highly turbulent plasmas like the solar wind close to the stars, HH objects, AGN’s, quasars…, flux ropes seems the most common term used. Happy to call them Parker Currents. Seems these currents have not had time to get field aligned.

Birkeland current in planetary plasmaspheres.

ALL need an electric field.
Scott's 'paper' was crap. As has been pointed out here and elsewhere. He screws up the equations at the start, and it just gets worse from thereon. If that were possible. He is not a plasma physicist, and is utterly clueless about the subject. Not to mention a whole bunch of other physics. Because he's an engineer. Not a physicist. He is suffering from a terminal case of Dunning-Kruger syndrome. Which seems to be contagious in EU circles. You and Thornhill have certainly caught it.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:09 PM   #3903
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post


Jd116, you may benefit from jotting this down somewhere….
And you may benefit from high school physics. And then trying to understand basic plasma physics, which you have completely failed to do after umpteen years.

Quote:
and the solar wind is not quasi neutral.

Yes it is, and nobody sane is claiming differently. And you cannot point to anyone sane making such a claim.
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:43 PM   #3904
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Quote:
As the solar wind moves away from the Sun, it carries the coronal flux tubes along with it.

More specifically, coronal mass ejections (Low 2001) form solar flux ropes (also known as interplanetary magnetic clouds) as they move in the solar wind away from the Sun.
Are you saying, you, are a plasma physicist? Or that G. J. J. Botha, E. A. Evangelidis don’t know what they are talking about?

You seem to be hung up on a 1939 paper by a pioneer in plasma physics.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM   #3905
Sol88
Philosopher
 
Sol88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,204
Quote:
As the solar wind moves away from the Sun, it carries the coronal flux tubes along with it.

More specifically, coronal mass ejections (Low 2001) form solar flux ropes (also known as interplanetary magnetic clouds) as they move in the solar wind away from the Sun.
Are you saying, you, are a plasma physicist? Or that G. J. J. Botha, E. A. Evangelidis don’t know what they are talking about?

You seem to be hung up on a 1939 paper by a pioneer in plasma physics.
__________________
“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.

“The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator
Sol88 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:08 AM   #3906
jonesdave116
Philosopher
 
jonesdave116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,629
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Are you saying, you, are a plasma physicist? Or that G. J. J. Botha, E. A. Evangelidis don’t know what they are talking about?

You seem to be hung up on a 1939 paper by a pioneer in plasma physics.
They are not saying that the solar wind is a net current. Learn to read. Nobody sane is claiming that. If you are claiming that these two authors are making such a claim, then accept the challenge I offered - I'll email them and see what they say about the net neutrality of the solar wind. Loser never posts here again. Deal?
__________________
“There is in every village a torch - the teacher; and an extinguisher - the priest.” - Victor Hugo

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
jonesdave116 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:03 PM   #3907
The Man
Unbanned zombie poster
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 16,900
Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
That is the electric Universe.

Currents flowing everywhere to try and maintain charge balance.

Ie. electromagnetism is far more import than gravity.
No, that's just quasi-neutrality.

Heck, why do you think the charges might tend to get separated in the first place? Gravity is one reason.
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ
The Man is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:29 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.