[Merged] The Qur'an corrects the mistakes of the false Injil/Torah - Page 62

Leumas · 3rd February 2023, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

No, you are not. You are in the mire of superstition and you are completely closed to learning.

Says the guy who thinks Djinn are real....

Pixel42 · 3rd February 2023, 11:58 PM

Someone who can't tell the difference between science and superstition is beyond help.

Emre_1974tr · 4th February 2023, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Someone who can't tell the difference between science and superstition is beyond help.

Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. As I said, when you want to get well, I will come right away to give you a helping hand.

Mojo · 4th February 2023, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow.

You seem pretty consistent.

Mojo · 4th February 2023, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow.

Seriously, you're almost half a century old and still have an imaginary friend. The chances of you suddenly getting better tomorrow must be pretty slim.

JayUtah · 4th February 2023, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning...

Right, skeptics are mired in superstition.

When I lived in Italy, I thought it might be a good idea to learn about Catholicism, so that I understood my neighbors better. I met with the local parish priest a few times to do that. When I lived in Israel I thought I should learn something about Judaism, so I studied Hebrew and the Torah with a rabbi. When I lived in Egypt I thought it might be good to know something about Islam, so I studied Arabic and the Qu'ran with an imam formerly of the mosque of Muhammed Ali. Now that I live in Utah, I figured it would be good to learn about Mormonism, so I read the Book of Mormon and talked to several Mormon members and leaders. I even got to meet the then-sitting prophet once.

I don't want to believe in any of these religions. But the subject of religion in general interests me, and people's individual religions are often important to them. So I learned enough about them to speak about them intelligently and understand my neighbors who practice these faiths.

But okay, I guess I'm "closed to learning." Or maybe you suck as a teacher.

Quote:

...does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. As I said, when you want to get well, I will come right away to give you a helping hand.

No, you're not a great moral or doctrinal teacher, and not even your fellow Muslims want anything to do with you. And I think I can see why. Your presentation of the faith is childishly simplistic and—at times—just plain wrong. If that's what you mean by "getting better," I can get faster results by slamming my head in the car door a few times.

Norman Alexander · 4th February 2023, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. As I said, when you want to get well, I will come right away to give you a helping hand.

Please tell me: What is superstition?

Emre_1974tr · 5th February 2023, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Please tell me: What is superstition?

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

Leumas · 5th February 2023, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

Allah... is not a god... let alone God.... you have been inculcated and indoctrinated by your parents and society to believe a lie that has been imposed on their ancestors by the sword.

A Sumerian Pimp made a bargain with a desert Demon... or Djinn as you say... 4200 years ago... and ever since this Demon... this Devil has been causing mayhem and strife and helping pimps (Isaac) and charlatans and grifters (Jacob) and murderers (Moses) and ethnic cleansing war criminals (Joshua) and treasonous traitorous brigands (David) and camel caravan pillagers (Muhammad) and insane cultists (Jesus), to fool people by hook or by crook.

And your poor ancestors were the victims of the latest of those Demonic bargains with the Devil... they had no choice... either kowtow and genuflect (i.e. Islam) to this Devil... or perish....

The tragedy is that now in 2023... you have all the resources to disabuse yourself of this inculcation and brainwashing.... but you still prefer to carry on with this sordid hideous bargain with the Devil/Djinn....

WHY???

Norman Alexander · 5th February 2023, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

Please provide evidence Allah exists. Remember that any evidence you provide can be used to prove that any other god exists.

You may begin.

Scorpion · 5th February 2023, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

Allah, you mean that stupid bastard that said the heaven and earth were created in six days, and the sun orbits the earth?

steenkh · 5th February 2023, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

In other threads you made the same claim, but failed to provide any evidence at all. You only showed a lack of scientific knowledge, and surprisingly also a lack knowledge of the Quran.

The truth is that there is no credible evidence whatsoever for your god - or any other god.

Steve · 5th February 2023, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

Ooh! Superstition. The belief in gods (or anything else) without any supporting evidence whatsoever.

Please provide evidence of your god that does not require belief.

Mojo · 5th February 2023, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition.

Which is, of course, a strawman. Not believing that Allah exists is not the same as believing that Allah does not exist.

Quote:

It is a baseless belief.

Indeed, but only because proving a negative is not possible. And Allah is defined sufficiently vaguely to make it impossible to point at any particular situation and say, if Allah existed we would see this.

Quote:

Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God...

What evidence?

Leumas · 5th February 2023, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

...
Indeed, but only because proving a negative is not possible. And Allah is defined sufficiently vaguely to make it impossible to point at any particular situation and say, if Allah existed we would see this.

Allah a.k.a. YHWH is as easy to prove for the the human perfidy and artifice he is, as Leprechauns are.

Because....

Originally Posted by Mojo

What evidence?

There is plenty of evidence for it in the bookssssss that allegedly define him and describe him and narrate his history and actions.

Which are all hideous sordid pernicious codswallop.

If any of it is true then Allah/YHWH is a grotesque loathsome DEMON... and if it is not true but still describes an existing thing then he is no god because he has not stopped the SLANDER to his name.... or... he does not exist.

In all cases... the most you can say about this turpitude called Allah/YHWH is that he is a Demon if extant.... but irrefragably as realistic as a talking snake or Jackass.

.

Gulliver Foyle · 6th February 2023, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Quite the opposite. I answered, but you couldn't answer. You kept repeating your dogmatic belief like a robot.

I say again, you have choices and you are free to choose what you want. And Allah knows what you will choose. I have explained this in terms of time and space and other aspects.

Nice of you to alter my post to change its meaning. Well, at least we now know that nothing you say is of any value because you're unwilling to post other forum members' rebuttals, just strawman arguments you created.

Gulliver Foyle · 6th February 2023, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Now you're just mindlessly spewing back what others have said to you. There are now AI bots capable of a more engaging dialogue than this.

You have explained nothing. Your explanation simply restates the problem. You are confusing foreknowledge with predestination. And you don't seem to have a single clue what free will actually means.

Even foreknowledge defeats emre's assertions re free will. He maintains that allah is all knowing, and to be all knowing allah needs to know with perfect confidence all events past, present and future. This means I have no choice in my actions, because for me to have a choice allah's perfect knowledge must be negated.

Steve · 6th February 2023, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Nice of you to alter my post to change its meaning. Well, at least we now know that nothing you say is of any value because you're unwilling to post other forum members' rebuttals, just strawman arguments you created.

Something of a habit with this one. Did the same to me. Seems to find the truth rather uncomfortable.

JayUtah · 6th February 2023, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition.

You say it's superstitious not to believe in an invisible supernatural being that controls everything.

Quote:

It is a baseless belief.

The basis is the lack of objective, testable evidence.

Quote:

Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

Then we're back to the problem that you can't demonstrate you know how evidence and proof work. You've tried many, many times at this forum to present evidence for the existence of God. You don't really know how evidence works, though, so you blame everyone else for their supposedly irrational skepticism instead of yourself for your poor reasoning skills.

You didn't come to believe in God because the objective evidence led you there. You were brought up Muslim in a Muslim country, and were indoctrinated in it from a young, impressionable age. Later, your teachers told you there was good evidence for God, but because you already believed in the conclusion you didn't challenge the reasoning they offered. You're really not the best person to judge whether the evidence you think you have is actually convincing. It didn't convince you, so why should it convince anyone else?

Emre_1974tr · 6th February 2023, 02:38 PM

Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will

The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "there is no free will". "That means we cannot do the opposite of what is known," they object.

No, knowing what we will choose with our free will does not affect the freedom of the will. There is not even the slightest connection.

It is one thing to be able to do the opposite of something, and quite another to do it.

For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision.

In short, he may not do the act of choosing option A, but he will still do it.

It is not because God knows, but because he chooses option A with his free will that our Creator knows.

Let us give a completely different example:

Hud

107. As long as the heavens and the earth endure, they will abide therein, except if your Lord wills. Your Lord is the Doer of whatever He wills

108. And those who deserve happiness will abide in Paradise as long as the heavens and the earth endure. Except if your Lord wills. This is an uninterrupted reward.

God Almighty is telling us here what He will do in the future.

And He says, "I will never remove those in Paradise unless I will otherwise."

And he promises not to take them out.

In other words, he says, "I can change my judgment if I want to, but those in heaven will stay there forever because I freely willed that they should stay there."

This gives us a second proof, another evidence for free will.

In this case we know what God will do in the future.

But it means that our knowing what Allah will do in the future does not affect His free will.

Just as His knowing what we will do does not affect our free will.

It is one thing to be able to do something and quite another to do it. And this is the result of free will.

Emre Karaköse

steenkh · 6th February 2023, 02:54 PM

You didn’t read a word of what we wrote, right? Or you didn’t care. Well, since you haven’t changed your arguments, and you haven’t addressed our arguments, I can safely say that you have changed nobody’s opinion.

Your “free” will is not “free”, because it is impossible to choose anything else than what your god “knows”.

And your god is not a “good” or “just” god, because he allows suffering on Earth that he could have prevented, given his knowledge of everything. Your argument that the babies that die horribly deserve everything they get, because they would be evil if they had lived on, is not justifiable, and the logic behind punishing people before they commit their crimes, proves that your god could have sent all evil humans directly to hell, without causing harm on Earth. In fact, if your god was not evil, he did not have to create evil persons at all, and he would need no Hell.

Steve · 6th February 2023, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will

Actually your "Lord's" knowledge does not affect anything at all as your "Lord" and its knowledge are purely imaginary.

Norman Alexander · 6th February 2023, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will

The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "there is no free will". "That means we cannot do the opposite of what is known," they object.

No, knowing what we will choose with our free will does not affect the freedom of the will. There is not even the slightest connection.

It is one thing to be able to do the opposite of something, and quite another to do it.

For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision.

In short, he may not do the act of choosing option A, but he will still do it.

It is not because God knows, but because he chooses option A with his free will that our Creator knows.

Let us give a completely different example:

...snipped nonsense...

It is one thing to be able to do something and quite another to do it. And this is the result of free will.

Emre Karaköse

Apart from the fact this is a pile of self-contradicting nonsense...

If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

This is the Epicurus Dilemma. It dates from long before Mohamed was born and Islam created. It is as true now as it was then.

You say that Allah refuses or is unable to prevent free will choices and evil events. Therefore Allah is not all-powerful and not all-good. If Allah does not know of free will choices or evil events happening, then Allah is not all-knowing.

The only alternative is Allah does not actually exist, and free will choices and evil events will occur anyway. Given your description, that makes a lot more sense.

Leumas · 6th February 2023, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Our Lord... <snip claptrap>

What do you say if a policeman who witnessed a rape and did nothing to stop it or even call for help or even tell other police what the rapist looks like or which direction he went afterwards.... and even worse never called an ambulance or lifted a finger to help the girl... if in court this policeman said that he did not want to interfere with the free will of the rapist???

What if you also find out that the rapist is actually the son of the police?

You really do not get it that what you are describing is the most abjectly heinous piece of putrid maggot infested cockroach feces as "Lord".

If this "Lord" were real he would NOT be a god by any stretch of the term... but rather he would be a hideous loathsome pernicious demon worthy of nothing more than spittle and gob flung at his face.

.

JayUtah · 6th February 2023, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision.

No. God decreed he will choose option A. The fact that the person doesn't know this doesn't give him free will. You keep misrepresenting the Islamic doctrine on this point, and you keep not understanding what predestination and free will actually mean.

Norman Alexander · 6th February 2023, 09:50 PM

Emre is positing a sort of Heisenburg Uncertainty of Allah's Choice principle.

Perhaps stated as: Whatever choices are available to pick by free will, once the choice is made by free will, Allah already knew that in advance. Allah doesn't know but he does know, at the same time.

Emre_1974tr · 7th February 2023, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Emre is positing a sort of Heisenburg Uncertainty of Allah's Choice principle.

Perhaps stated as: Whatever choices are available to pick by free will, once the choice is made by free will, Allah already knew that in advance. Allah doesn't know but he does know, at the same time.

God knows what you will do with your free will.

Emre_1974tr · 7th February 2023, 03:19 AM

It is really appalling that people here are closed to learning, far from thinking and reasoning. Otherwise you wouldn't be atheists or Christians, you would have converted to Islam long ago.

Norman Alexander · 7th February 2023, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

God knows what you will do with your free will.

And does nothing to prevent evil choices being made? He lets horrible things happen, like children being raped and murdered, and yet refuses to interfere or prevent it? Especially since you say he knows in advance these choices will lead to bad outcomes?

What an evil monster your Allah is! The only alternative is that Allah does not exist, and these situations are purely the result of human evil alone.

Also, again, a number of people have told you that your ideas are heresy for Islam.

Leumas · 7th February 2023, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

If you are not trolling.... then.... please.... answer these questions

What do you say if a policeman who witnessed a rape and did nothing to stop it or even call for help or even tell other police what the rapist looks like or which direction he went afterwards.... and even worse never called an ambulance or lifted a finger to help the girl... if in court this policeman said that he did not want to interfere with the free will of the rapist???

What if you also find out that the rapist is actually the son of the police?

If you do not answer then you are most assuredly trolling.

Steve · 7th February 2023, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

God knows what you will do with your free will.

You really are trapped in a tight little box of ignorance. But then your god knew before it created you that you would be completely incapable of thinking for yourself, yet it created you anyway. Perhaps your god's purpose for you was to help expose the close-mindedness of Islam to others.

steenkh · 7th February 2023, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

It is really appalling that people here are closed to learning, far from thinking and reasoning. Otherwise you wouldn't be atheists or Christians, you would have converted to Islam long ago.

It is really appalling that Emre is closed to learning, far from thinking and reasoning. Otherwise he wouldn't be Muslim, but would have converted to atheism long ago.

Gulliver Foyle · 7th February 2023, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will

The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "there is no free will". "That means we cannot do the opposite of what is known," they object.

No, knowing what we will choose with our free will does not affect the freedom of the will. There is not even the slightest connection.

It is one thing to be able to do the opposite of something, and quite another to do it.

For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision.

In short, he may not do the act of choosing option A, but he will still do it.

It is not because God knows, but because he chooses option A with his free will that our Creator knows.

Let us give a completely different example:

Hud

107. As long as the heavens and the earth endure, they will abide therein, except if your Lord wills. Your Lord is the Doer of whatever He wills

108. And those who deserve happiness will abide in Paradise as long as the heavens and the earth endure. Except if your Lord wills. This is an uninterrupted reward.

God Almighty is telling us here what He will do in the future.

And He says, "I will never remove those in Paradise unless I will otherwise."

And he promises not to take them out.

In other words, he says, "I can change my judgment if I want to, but those in heaven will stay there forever because I freely willed that they should stay there."

This gives us a second proof, another evidence for free will.

In this case we know what God will do in the future.

But it means that our knowing what Allah will do in the future does not affect His free will.

Just as His knowing what we will do does not affect our free will.

It is one thing to be able to do something and quite another to do it. And this is the result of free will.

Emre Karaköse

But if I make a split second decision to do something, e.g. buy an ice cream cone at the beach, for that to be through free will then nothing, neither flesh nor fowl nor feathered beast, and definitely not the voices in your head you think are god, can know what my decision will be before time. Because in that case I will truly have no choice, just my synapses fooling me that I do.

But hey, keep wearing stupidity like it is a badge to be proud of, it's no skin off my nose.

catsmate · 7th February 2023, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

God knows what you will choose with your free will. You choose completely freely.

catsmate · 7th February 2023, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

No, you are not. You are in the mire of superstition and you are completely closed to learning.

Myriad · 7th February 2023, 07:56 AM

Okay, let's try a specific example. I find a wallet on the ground at a bus stop. It has $500 cash in it, but no identification of the owner. I'm short of funds and could really use the money to pay some bills on time. If I turn the wallet in (to the bus company or police) it's more likely than not that whoever I turn the wallet in to will just keep the money themselves. On the other hand, it's not my money.

Allah knows that I will not keep the money.

I decide of my own free will to keep the money. What happens then?

JayUtah · 7th February 2023, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

It is really appalling that people here are closed to learning, far from thinking and reasoning. Otherwise you wouldn't be atheists or Christians, you would have converted to Islam long ago.

You can't even get other Muslims to play with you. Interesting that you just lump Christians and atheists easily together. You really don't know what you're doing, do you?

Emre_1974tr · 7th February 2023, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Okay, let's try a specific example. I find a wallet on the ground at a bus stop. It has $500 cash in it, but no identification of the owner. I'm short of funds and could really use the money to pay some bills on time. If I turn the wallet in (to the bus company or police) it's more likely than not that whoever I turn the wallet in to will just keep the money themselves. On the other hand, it's not my money.

Allah knows that I will not keep the money.

I decide of my own free will to keep the money. What happens then?

God knows that you will take the money of your own free will.

MarkCorrigan · 7th February 2023, 08:39 AM

You're not the teacher here Emre. You're woefully ignorant of even your own religion, let alone other religions or the arguments for atheism.

JayUtah · 7th February 2023, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

God knows that you will take the money of your own free will.

God decreed from the beginning that you would. Islam toyed with mere foreknowledge in its early stages, but this gave way to full predestination. True volition robs Allah of creative authority. Thus it is disallowed. How this still results in culpability for judgment is considered a mystery in Islam. The individual Muslim is simply told to submit to the will of Allah, who has already decreed what will happen in any given circumstance.

It's too bad you're closed to learning and reason. Many people find discussions of divine determinism in religion quite intellectually satisfying.

3rd February 2023, 09:38 PM	#2441
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr No, you are not. You are in the mire of superstition and you are completely closed to learning. Says the guy who thinks Djinn are real....
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

3rd February 2023, 11:58 PM	#2442
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 15,301	Someone who can't tell the difference between science and superstition is beyond help.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

4th February 2023, 02:59 AM	#2444
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 36,847	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. You seem pretty consistent.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th February 2023, 03:10 AM	#2445
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 36,847	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. Seriously, you're almost half a century old and still have an imaginary friend. The chances of you suddenly getting better tomorrow must be pretty slim.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th February 2023, 09:15 PM	#2447
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,193	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. As I said, when you want to get well, I will come right away to give you a helping hand. Please tell me: What is superstition?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

4th February 2023, 02:47 AM	#2443
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Someone who can't tell the difference between science and superstition is beyond help. Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. As I said, when you want to get well, I will come right away to give you a helping hand.

4th February 2023, 08:48 AM	#2446
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,413	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Just because you are in the mire of superstition and closed to learning... Right, skeptics are mired in superstition. When I lived in Italy, I thought it might be a good idea to learn about Catholicism, so that I understood my neighbors better. I met with the local parish priest a few times to do that. When I lived in Israel I thought I should learn something about Judaism, so I studied Hebrew and the Torah with a rabbi. When I lived in Egypt I thought it might be good to know something about Islam, so I studied Arabic and the Qu'ran with an imam formerly of the mosque of Muhammed Ali. Now that I live in Utah, I figured it would be good to learn about Mormonism, so I read the Book of Mormon and talked to several Mormon members and leaders. I even got to meet the then-sitting prophet once. I don't want to believe in any of these religions. But the subject of religion in general interests me, and people's individual religions are often important to them. So I learned enough about them to speak about them intelligently and understand my neighbors who practice these faiths. But okay, I guess I'm "closed to learning." Or maybe you suck as a teacher. Quote: ...does not mean that you will not get better tomorrow. As I said, when you want to get well, I will come right away to give you a helping hand. No, you're not a great moral or doctrinal teacher, and not even your fellow Muslims want anything to do with you. And I think I can see why. Your presentation of the faith is childishly simplistic and—at times—just plain wrong. If that's what you mean by "getting better," I can get faster results by slamming my head in the car door a few times.

5th February 2023, 03:00 AM	#2448
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Please tell me: What is superstition? For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality.

5th February 2023, 03:31 AM	#2449
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality. Allah... is not a god... let alone God.... you have been inculcated and indoctrinated by your parents and society to believe a lie that has been imposed on their ancestors by the sword. A Sumerian Pimp made a bargain with a desert Demon... or Djinn as you say... 4200 years ago... and ever since this Demon... this Devil has been causing mayhem and strife and helping pimps (Isaac) and charlatans and grifters (Jacob) and murderers (Moses) and ethnic cleansing war criminals (Joshua) and treasonous traitorous brigands (David) and camel caravan pillagers (Muhammad) and insane cultists (Jesus), to fool people by hook or by crook. And your poor ancestors were the victims of the latest of those Demonic bargains with the Devil... they had no choice... either kowtow and genuflect (i.e. Islam) to this Devil... or perish.... The tragedy is that now in 2023... you have all the resources to disabuse yourself of this inculcation and brainwashing.... but you still prefer to carry on with this sordid hideous bargain with the Devil/Djinn.... WHY???
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

5th February 2023, 03:39 AM	#2450
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,193	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality. Please provide evidence Allah exists. Remember that any evidence you provide can be used to prove that any other god exists. You may begin.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

5th February 2023, 04:17 AM	#2451
Scorpion Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 3,274	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality. Allah, you mean that stupid bastard that said the heaven and earth were created in six days, and the sun orbits the earth?
Scorpion Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 3,274	__________________ You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God. Sri Ramakrishna Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six. Leo Tolstoy

5th February 2023, 05:08 AM	#2452
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,768	The Qur'an corrects the mistakes of the false Injil/Torah Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality. In other threads you made the same claim, but failed to provide any evidence at all. You only showed a lack of scientific knowledge, and surprisingly also a lack knowledge of the Quran. The truth is that there is no credible evidence whatsoever for your god - or any other god.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

5th February 2023, 05:11 AM	#2453
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,181	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. It is a baseless belief. Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality. Ooh! Superstition. The belief in gods (or anything else) without any supporting evidence whatsoever. Please provide evidence of your god that does not require belief.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

5th February 2023, 05:40 AM	#2454
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 36,847	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. Which is, of course, a strawman. Not believing that Allah exists is not the same as believing that Allah does not exist. Quote: It is a baseless belief. Indeed, but only because proving a negative is not possible. And Allah is defined sufficiently vaguely to make it impossible to point at any particular situation and say, if Allah existed we would see this. Quote: Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God... What evidence?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

5th February 2023, 06:04 AM	#2455
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Mojo ... Indeed, but only because proving a negative is not possible. And Allah is defined sufficiently vaguely to make it impossible to point at any particular situation and say, if Allah existed we would see this. Allah a.k.a. YHWH is as easy to prove for the the human perfidy and artifice he is, as Leprechauns are. Because.... Originally Posted by Mojo What evidence? There is plenty of evidence for it in the bookssssss that allegedly define him and describe him and narrate his history and actions. Which are all hideous sordid pernicious codswallop. If any of it is true then Allah/YHWH is a grotesque loathsome DEMON... and if it is not true but still describes an existing thing then he is no god because he has not stopped the SLANDER to his name.... or... he does not exist. In all cases... the most you can say about this turpitude called Allah/YHWH is that he is a Demon if extant.... but irrefragably as realistic as a talking snake or Jackass. .
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 5th February 2023 at 06:07 AM.

6th February 2023, 02:54 AM	#2456
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,280	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Quite the opposite. I answered, but you couldn't answer. You kept repeating your dogmatic belief like a robot. I say again, you have choices and you are free to choose what you want. And Allah knows what you will choose. I have explained this in terms of time and space and other aspects. Nice of you to alter my post to change its meaning. Well, at least we now know that nothing you say is of any value because you're unwilling to post other forum members' rebuttals, just strawman arguments you created.

6th February 2023, 02:58 AM	#2457
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,280	Originally Posted by JayUtah Now you're just mindlessly spewing back what others have said to you. There are now AI bots capable of a more engaging dialogue than this. You have explained nothing. Your explanation simply restates the problem. You are confusing foreknowledge with predestination. And you don't seem to have a single clue what free will actually means. Even foreknowledge defeats emre's assertions re free will. He maintains that allah is all knowing, and to be all knowing allah needs to know with perfect confidence all events past, present and future. This means I have no choice in my actions, because for me to have a choice allah's perfect knowledge must be negated.

6th February 2023, 07:00 AM	#2458
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,181	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle Nice of you to alter my post to change its meaning. Well, at least we now know that nothing you say is of any value because you're unwilling to post other forum members' rebuttals, just strawman arguments you created. Something of a habit with this one. Did the same to me. Seems to find the truth rather uncomfortable.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

6th February 2023, 07:50 AM	#2459
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,413	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, believing that Allah does not exist is superstition. You say it's superstitious not to believe in an invisible supernatural being that controls everything. Quote: It is a baseless belief. The basis is the lack of objective, testable evidence. Quote: Even when all the evidence points to the existence of God, it is to turn one's back on reality. Then we're back to the problem that you can't demonstrate you know how evidence and proof work. You've tried many, many times at this forum to present evidence for the existence of God. You don't really know how evidence works, though, so you blame everyone else for their supposedly irrational skepticism instead of yourself for your poor reasoning skills. You didn't come to believe in God because the objective evidence led you there. You were brought up Muslim in a Muslim country, and were indoctrinated in it from a young, impressionable age. Later, your teachers told you there was good evidence for God, but because you already believed in the conclusion you didn't challenge the reasoning they offered. You're really not the best person to judge whether the evidence you think you have is actually convincing. It didn't convince you, so why should it convince anyone else?

6th February 2023, 02:38 PM	#2460
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "there is no free will". "That means we cannot do the opposite of what is known," they object. No, knowing what we will choose with our free will does not affect the freedom of the will. There is not even the slightest connection. It is one thing to be able to do the opposite of something, and quite another to do it. For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision. In short, he may not do the act of choosing option A, but he will still do it. It is not because God knows, but because he chooses option A with his free will that our Creator knows. Let us give a completely different example: Hud 107. As long as the heavens and the earth endure, they will abide therein, except if your Lord wills. Your Lord is the Doer of whatever He wills 108. And those who deserve happiness will abide in Paradise as long as the heavens and the earth endure. Except if your Lord wills. This is an uninterrupted reward. God Almighty is telling us here what He will do in the future. And He says, "I will never remove those in Paradise unless I will otherwise." And he promises not to take them out. In other words, he says, "I can change my judgment if I want to, but those in heaven will stay there forever because I freely willed that they should stay there." This gives us a second proof, another evidence for free will. In this case we know what God will do in the future. But it means that our knowing what Allah will do in the future does not affect His free will. Just as His knowing what we will do does not affect our free will. It is one thing to be able to do something and quite another to do it. And this is the result of free will. Emre Karaköse

6th February 2023, 02:54 PM	#2461
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,768	You didn’t read a word of what we wrote, right? Or you didn’t care. Well, since you haven’t changed your arguments, and you haven’t addressed our arguments, I can safely say that you have changed nobody’s opinion. Your “free” will is not “free”, because it is impossible to choose anything else than what your god “knows”. And your god is not a “good” or “just” god, because he allows suffering on Earth that he could have prevented, given his knowledge of everything. Your argument that the babies that die horribly deserve everything they get, because they would be evil if they had lived on, is not justifiable, and the logic behind punishing people before they commit their crimes, proves that your god could have sent all evil humans directly to hell, without causing harm on Earth. In fact, if your god was not evil, he did not have to create evil persons at all, and he would need no Hell.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

6th February 2023, 03:12 PM	#2462
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,181	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will Actually your "Lord's" knowledge does not affect anything at all as your "Lord" and its knowledge are purely imaginary.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

6th February 2023, 03:23 PM	#2463
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,193	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "there is no free will". "That means we cannot do the opposite of what is known," they object. No, knowing what we will choose with our free will does not affect the freedom of the will. There is not even the slightest connection. It is one thing to be able to do the opposite of something, and quite another to do it. For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision. In short, he may not do the act of choosing option A, but he will still do it. It is not because God knows, but because he chooses option A with his free will that our Creator knows. Let us give a completely different example: ...snipped nonsense... It is one thing to be able to do something and quite another to do it. And this is the result of free will. Emre Karaköse Apart from the fact this is a pile of self-contradicting nonsense... If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist? This is the Epicurus Dilemma. It dates from long before Mohamed was born and Islam created. It is as true now as it was then. You say that Allah refuses or is unable to prevent free will choices and evil events. Therefore Allah is not all-powerful and not all-good. If Allah does not know of free will choices or evil events happening, then Allah is not all-knowing. The only alternative is Allah does not actually exist, and free will choices and evil events will occur anyway. Given your description, that makes a lot more sense.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 6th February 2023 at 03:24 PM.

6th February 2023, 04:51 PM	#2464
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Our Lord... <snip claptrap> What do you say if a policeman who witnessed a rape and did nothing to stop it or even call for help or even tell other police what the rapist looks like or which direction he went afterwards.... and even worse never called an ambulance or lifted a finger to help the girl... if in court this policeman said that he did not want to interfere with the free will of the rapist??? What if you also find out that the rapist is actually the son of the police? You really do not get it that what you are describing is the most abjectly heinous piece of putrid maggot infested cockroach feces as "Lord". If this "Lord" were real he would NOT be a god by any stretch of the term... but rather he would be a hideous loathsome pernicious demon worthy of nothing more than spittle and gob flung at his face. .
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 6th February 2023 at 05:33 PM.

6th February 2023, 09:25 PM	#2465
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,413	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision. No. God decreed he will choose option A. The fact that the person doesn't know this doesn't give him free will. You keep misrepresenting the Islamic doctrine on this point, and you keep not understanding what predestination and free will actually mean.

6th February 2023, 09:50 PM	#2466
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,193	Emre is positing a sort of Heisenburg Uncertainty of Allah's Choice principle. Perhaps stated as: Whatever choices are available to pick by free will, once the choice is made by free will, Allah already knew that in advance. Allah doesn't know but he does know, at the same time.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

7th February 2023, 03:18 AM	#2467
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Emre is positing a sort of Heisenburg Uncertainty of Allah's Choice principle. Perhaps stated as: Whatever choices are available to pick by free will, once the choice is made by free will, Allah already knew that in advance. Allah doesn't know but he does know, at the same time. God knows what you will do with your free will.

7th February 2023, 03:19 AM	#2468
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	It is really appalling that people here are closed to learning, far from thinking and reasoning. Otherwise you wouldn't be atheists or Christians, you would have converted to Islam long ago.

7th February 2023, 03:24 AM	#2469
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,193	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr God knows what you will do with your free will. And does nothing to prevent evil choices being made? He lets horrible things happen, like children being raped and murdered, and yet refuses to interfere or prevent it? Especially since you say he knows in advance these choices will lead to bad outcomes? What an evil monster your Allah is! The only alternative is that Allah does not exist, and these situations are purely the result of human evil alone. Also, again, a number of people have told you that your ideas are heresy for Islam.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

7th February 2023, 05:06 AM	#2470
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr <trolling> If you are not trolling.... then.... please.... answer these questions What do you say if a policeman who witnessed a rape and did nothing to stop it or even call for help or even tell other police what the rapist looks like or which direction he went afterwards.... and even worse never called an ambulance or lifted a finger to help the girl... if in court this policeman said that he did not want to interfere with the free will of the rapist??? What if you also find out that the rapist is actually the son of the police? If you do not answer then you are most assuredly trolling.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

7th February 2023, 05:34 AM	#2471
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,181	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr God knows what you will do with your free will. You really are trapped in a tight little box of ignorance. But then your god knew before it created you that you would be completely incapable of thinking for yourself, yet it created you anyway. Perhaps your god's purpose for you was to help expose the close-mindedness of Islam to others.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

7th February 2023, 06:20 AM	#2472
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,768	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr It is really appalling that people here are closed to learning, far from thinking and reasoning. Otherwise you wouldn't be atheists or Christians, you would have converted to Islam long ago. It is really appalling that Emre is closed to learning, far from thinking and reasoning. Otherwise he wouldn't be Muslim, but would have converted to atheism long ago.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

7th February 2023, 07:31 AM	#2473
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,280	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Our Lord's knowledge does not affect free will The fact that God knows what we will do with our free will is interpreted by some people as "there is no free will". "That means we cannot do the opposite of what is known," they object. No, knowing what we will choose with our free will does not affect the freedom of the will. There is not even the slightest connection. It is one thing to be able to do the opposite of something, and quite another to do it. For example, let's say a person will choose option A in such and such an event. Our Lord knows this. He(a person) has the freedom to do the opposite, that is, not to choose this option. But he will choose option A by his own decision. In short, he may not do the act of choosing option A, but he will still do it. It is not because God knows, but because he chooses option A with his free will that our Creator knows. Let us give a completely different example: Hud 107. As long as the heavens and the earth endure, they will abide therein, except if your Lord wills. Your Lord is the Doer of whatever He wills 108. And those who deserve happiness will abide in Paradise as long as the heavens and the earth endure. Except if your Lord wills. This is an uninterrupted reward. God Almighty is telling us here what He will do in the future. And He says, "I will never remove those in Paradise unless I will otherwise." And he promises not to take them out. In other words, he says, "I can change my judgment if I want to, but those in heaven will stay there forever because I freely willed that they should stay there." This gives us a second proof, another evidence for free will. In this case we know what God will do in the future. But it means that our knowing what Allah will do in the future does not affect His free will. Just as His knowing what we will do does not affect our free will. It is one thing to be able to do something and quite another to do it. And this is the result of free will. Emre Karaköse But if I make a split second decision to do something, e.g. buy an ice cream cone at the beach, for that to be through free will then nothing, neither flesh nor fowl nor feathered beast, and definitely not the voices in your head you think are god, can know what my decision will be before time. Because in that case I will truly have no choice, just my synapses fooling me that I do. But hey, keep wearing stupidity like it is a badge to be proud of, it's no skin off my nose.

7th February 2023, 07:37 AM	#2474
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,088	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr God knows what you will choose with your free will. You choose completely freely.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

7th February 2023, 07:42 AM	#2475
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,088	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr No, you are not. You are in the mire of superstition and you are completely closed to learning.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.