[Merged] Alec Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun - Page 13

Puppycow · 26th October 2021, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

Several details differ in that article from reporting earlier, and it's dated yesterday afternoon (~3pm Mon). Perhaps getting more accurate as we go?

And you ascribe Baldwin a larger part in the production company than any I've seen reported, actually no detail is what I've seen.
New article you read?

Well the very first article I read about it described Baldwin as both the star of the movie and the Producer.

Also, you can confirm on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film)

Where it lists the "Production Companies" (plural), the first one on the list is "El Dorado Pictures". It's also the only one on the list that has a link to follow, but the link actually goes strait to Alec Baldwin's wikipedia page. From that I surmised that El Dorado Pictures = Alec Baldwin.

Now, to be sure, I don't want to only rely on Wikipedia, so here is further confirmation:

https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/89...n-set-shooting

Quote:

In August 2017, Alec Baldwin’s production company, El Dorado Pictures, signed a first-look deal with ABC Studios, which is owned by the Walt Disney Company. El Dorado Pictures develops scripted and unscripted projects under the ABC Studios banner. “Rust” is an upcoming American Western film written and directed by Joel Souza. It stars Alec Baldwin (Oscar nominee and 30 Rock star), Travis Fimmel, Brady Noon, Frances Fisher, and Jensen Ackles.

Various media sites are doing a blitz to deflect blame off of Hollywood actor and producer Alec Baldwin who shot and killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

It wasn't a sub standard gun. It was sub standard ammunition.

Why is a safety factor of less than 2 or it spits metal into the face and neck of the operator not unacceptable? In any other device that kind of failure at so much over expected loads would be unacceptable. But no one actually cares about safe guns, that is one reason there are so few design regulations on them.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

What is your evidence for this?

I have seen an AR15 upper destroyed and the bolt head shattered by 'hot' wrongly loaded ammunition. Not some garden shed reload but purchased from a reputable company. The upper was blown in to several large pieces and the bolt completely fractured across it's head and along it's length.
mistake was made by the ammunition company and pistol powder was mixed in with the powder for the 5.56 ammunition.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

How badly did that injure the operator? Should it have killed him if he did not shove his thumb in his neck? Or did it actually fail in a safe manner for the operator unlike the gun in question?

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

But it's a natural progression of the discussion to opine on what reforms might be instigated as a reaction to this incident.

But of course the full details of the accident would have to become known first otherwise it is all off topic BS about how one thinks things worked and not how they did work on the set in question.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

There seems to be quite the effort afoot to find a scapegoat whose name isn't Alec Baldwin.

In his role as producer he might be responsible, but he was following standard accepted safety practices in the industry as an actor.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by LongFuzzy

There have been so many articles about this, I can't remember where I read it, but it was reported that someone on the crew took the gun the previous night and used it for target practice. That would explain how a live round got into the gun.

If true(and I think that likely) that is totally ridiculous violation of safety protocol.

I am also thinking how so many applauded Fury Road for using practical effects instead of CGI and risking the lives of so many stunt people.

Mike! · 26th October 2021, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Well the very first article I read about it described Baldwin as both the star of the movie and the Producer.

Also, you can confirm on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film)

Where it lists the "Production Companies" (plural), the first one on the list is "El Dorado Pictures". It's also the only one on the list that has a link to follow, but the link actually goes strait to Alec Baldwin's wikipedia page. From that I surmised that El Dorado Pictures = Alec Baldwin.

Now, to be sure, I don't want to only rely on Wikipedia, so here is further confirmation:

https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/89...n-set-shooting

I'm sticking with the majority of fault lands squarely on Baldwin in the end. If they were running the set sloppy and on the cheap, it was on his orders.

Captain_Swoop · 26th October 2021, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Why is a safety factor of less than 2 or it spits metal into the face and neck of the operator not unacceptable? In any other device that kind of failure at so much over expected loads would be unacceptable. But no one actually cares about safe guns, that is one reason there are so few design regulations on them.

We don't know what the chamber pressure was when the gun failed.
Maybe the US should introduce some regulations on proofing like Europe has had for nearly 200 years

SuburbanTurkey · 26th October 2021, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

I'm sticking with the majority of fault lands squarely on Baldwin in the end.

I'd say there's a decent chance Baldwin is implicated in the shoddy safety management on the set. It's increasingly looking like they penny-pinched their way to disaster.

Actor Alec Baldwin probably didn't do much wrong. Producer Alec Baldwin may have.

Captain_Swoop · 26th October 2021, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

How badly did that injure the operator? Should it have killed him if he did not shove his thumb in his neck? Or did it actually fail in a safe manner for the operator unlike the gun in question?

Define a 'safe manner' looking at the remains of the gun it's more luck than design that saved him.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

We don't know what the chamber pressure was when the gun failed.
Maybe the US should introduce some regulations on proofing like Europe has had for nearly 200 years

It was designed to fail at 95,000 PSI standard chamber pressure is 60,500. So a safety factor of 1.5 assuming no material problems that were not detected first. Not very high when it is critical to life. For example with rope you typically have the breaking strength be at least 3x the working load.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Define a 'safe manner' looking at the remains of the gun it's more luck than design that saved him.

Have something to contain the fragments, something between the breach and the operator would be a start. Not there on the Serbu gun.

These are basic principles of engineering safety that are applied to everything that is not a firearm.

Jim_MDP · 26th October 2021, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Well the very first article I read about it described Baldwin as both the star of the movie and the Producer.

Also, you can confirm on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film)

Where it lists the "Production Companies" (plural), the first one on the list is "El Dorado Pictures". It's also the only one on the list that has a link to follow, but the link actually goes strait to Alec Baldwin's wikipedia page. From that I surmised that El Dorado Pictures = Alec Baldwin.

Now, to be sure, I don't want to only rely on Wikipedia, so here is further confirmation:

https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/89...n-set-shooting

Thanks, and yeah, that's highly suggestive that major funding and control is coming either from or through Baldwin. Or both.

Steve · 26th October 2021, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

Hell, I wrote it.
Wait... what the...

DARAT!!!

.

Kidding... but one of you mooks did change my title at the merge.

Ranb · 26th October 2021, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And proof all your own guns, don't be like Kentucky Ballistics and have a substandard gun explode on you almost killing you.

I have to draw the line somewhere. Loading proper ammo into a properly functioning firearm and conforming to the usual safety rules that everyone else is expected to follow works for me.

LondonJohn · 26th October 2021, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I'd say there's a decent chance Baldwin is implicated in the shoddy safety management on the set. It's increasingly looking like they penny-pinched their way to disaster.

Actor Alec Baldwin probably didn't do much wrong. Producer Alec Baldwin may have.

Potentially true. But I guess it could depend a great deal on what the title "Producer" actually meant as it pertained to Baldwin and this production.

In the "old" days, stars often took an Executive Producer position on a show/movie. The use of this term effectively denoted pretty clearly that the star was fulfilling only a specific subset of overall "producer" roles - notably bringing in other on-screen talent and/or directors, and making the project attractive to studios, distributors and financiers.

But over the past decade or so, the demarcation lines have become increasingly blurred. It's not uncommon these days for a star to want to be billed as "Producer" rather than "Executive Producer", even if the star is still only carrying out the specific and limited functions associated with the latter title. It's likely that the main reason for this is that the very term "Executive Producer" has taken on a slightly derogatory connotation in recent times.

So Baldwin's responsibilities as a "Producer" here might have been limited to those traditional "Executive Producer" roles of attracting money/distribution and high-end talent. Or he might have actually been performing the full range of roles traditionally associated with "Producer" - which would include budget oversight and management, oversight of hirings, oversight of day-to-day production of the project, and so on. If Baldwin fell into that latter camp, I'd totally agree that he probably ought to be a shamed and worried man right now.

Captain_Swoop · 26th October 2021, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

It was designed to fail at 95,000 PSI standard chamber pressure is 60,500. So a safety factor of 1.5 assuming no material problems that were not detected first. Not very high when it is critical to life. For example with rope you typically have the breaking strength be at least 3x the working load.

The M1 .50 calibre proof round gives a proofing pressure of 65,000 psi, 11,000 psi (17%) above the standard service pressure.

95,000 is easily an adequate margin.

European proof houses use standard proof testS of firing two overloaded cartridges that produce 25% over pressure for rifles and 30% for pistols

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ranb

I have to draw the line somewhere. Loading proper ammo into a properly functioning firearm and conforming to the usual safety rules that everyone else is expected to follow works for me.

And of course engineering the equivalent safety features like cars got collapsing steering columns that don't spear the driver through the heart and crumple zones is right out.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The M1 .50 calibre proof round gives a proofing pressure of 65,000 psi, 11,000 psi (17%) above the standard service pressure.

95,000 is easily an adequate margin.

So the safety factor is only 1.17. That is really really low. But really if cars were treated like guns we would not have things like collapsible steering columns, air bags, or crumple zones.

If actor Anton Yelchin's death was with a firearm instead of a car no one would blame the manufacturer for the design and instead entirely blame him.

Captain_Swoop · 26th October 2021, 05:26 AM

I'm not saying there's no blame on the shooter in the Kentucky Ballistics case.
He was using old ammo of unknown provenance and before the burst there were obvious signs that things weren't right with the performance.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

I'm not saying there's no blame on the shooter in the Kentucky Ballistics case.
He was using old ammo of unknown provenance and before the burst there were obvious signs that things weren't right with the performance.

But you are saying there is no fault in the design of the gun.

Armitage72 · 26th October 2021, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

By the way, I want to be the first to say that Donald Trump is a real ******* for what he will think about this when he wakes up.

How about Donald Jr?

He's selling and promoting shirts that say "Guns don't kill people. Alec Baldwin kills people." He also posted a doctored photo of Alec Baldwin wearing one of the shirts.

Monza · 26th October 2021, 06:14 AM

Wow, what an ass.

Captain_Swoop · 26th October 2021, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

But you are saying there is no fault in the design of the gun.

I don't see any evidence for a fault in the design of the gun.
Ammunition faults seem to have been the problem.

Warp12 · 26th October 2021, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

How about Donald Jr?

He's selling and promoting shirts that say "Guns don't kill people. Alec Baldwin kills people." He also posted a doctored photo of Alec Baldwin wearing one of the shirts.

I think that is hilarious.

As I say, live by the sword, die by the sword. Baldwin spent years mocking Trump on television. What do you expect to happen?

Steve · 26th October 2021, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

I think that is hilarious.

As I say, live by the sword, die by the sword. Baldwin spent years mocking Trump on television. What do you expect to happen?

Yeah, you are right. When it comes to the Trump family the lowest of the low is exactly the expected response.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

I don't see any evidence for a fault in the design of the gun.
Ammunition faults seem to have been the problem.

And there was no fault in the design of cars with steering columns that would stab you through the heart in an accident, the fault was on the driver for getting into an accident.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 06:55 AM

Well it seems in Arizona you can't stop people from just taking guns and going plinking with them.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html

Taking live ammo to a set it ridiculous and using guns from the prop department even more so.

Captain_Swoop · 26th October 2021, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And there was no fault in the design of cars with steering columns that would stab you through the heart in an accident, the fault was on the driver for getting into an accident.

What is the point of this diversion? Cars aren't the subject of the thread and for that matter neither is the overall safety of gun design.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

What is the point of this diversion? Cars aren't the subject of the thread and for that matter neither is the overall safety of gun design.

It speaks to proper design engineering and how much of that responsibility is on the operator.

I blame the gun enthusiasts who grab guns that do not belong to them to go plinking while at work a lot more. The film not have the guns under the control of the armorer at all times. That they did not have an armorer specifically set up the gun and be the one to hand it to Baldwin and instead had guns just laying out on a table all day seems to be a major cause of the incident.

Bob001 · 26th October 2021, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

I don't see any evidence for a fault in the design of the gun.
Ammunition faults seem to have been the problem.

It depends on how you see the purpose of this particular gun. If it was designed to shoot a bullet when the trigger is pulled, it functioned as designed. If, however, it was designed to look like a firearm for theatrical purposes without actually endangering anyone, it failed miserably.

Of course, there were previous reports that the gun had fired unexpectedly, which might indicate a real mechanical malfunction.

It sounds like the ammunition worked exactly as designed. It just shouldn't have been anywhere near that gun.

lobosrul5 · 26th October 2021, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well it seems in Arizona you can't stop people from just taking guns and going plinking with them.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html

Taking live ammo to a set it ridiculous and using guns from the prop department even more so.

You're one state too far west. And yes, you would be correct, in unincorporated areas plinking is legal here, as it is in most of the country I believe.

ETA: I'm thinking Gov Lujan Grisham is going to push some sort of legislation about real guns with real ammo being banned from sets. Unlike AZ we are actually a blue state.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

You're one state too far west. And yes, you would be correct, in unincorporated areas plinking is legal here, as it is in most of the country I believe.

Kick ass I can just take your gun and go shooting with it without your permission? They have even better gun laws than I thought.

SuburbanTurkey · 26th October 2021, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well it seems in Arizona you can't stop people from just taking guns and going plinking with them.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html

Taking live ammo to a set it ridiculous and using guns from the prop department even more so.

Baffling levels of recklessness and incompetence.

Warp12 · 26th October 2021, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Baffling levels of recklessness and incompetence.

You just have to wonder if Baldwin didn't know about these activities. As a producer, perhaps this sort of thing would be of concern to him?

lobosrul5 · 26th October 2021, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Kick ass I can just take your gun and go shooting with it without your permission? They have even better gun laws than I thought.

Umm, no. Thats called theft. The article doesn't really specify who was doing the plinking and who knew about it. But I mean... come on. The armorer had to have known that in between filming that people were bringing in live ammo and plinking. She may have been one of them! Civil suits are going to be thick in this case, and criminal liability is a possibility. Interesting to see if Baldwin knew about this.

Jim_MDP · 26th October 2021, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

It depends on how you see the purpose of this particular gun. If it was designed to shoot a bullet when the trigger is pulled, it functioned as designed. If, however, it was designed to look like a firearm for theatrical purposes without actually endangering anyone, it failed miserably.

Of course, there were previous reports that the gun had fired unexpectedly, which might indicate a real mechanical malfunction.

It sounds like the ammunition worked exactly as designed. It just shouldn't have been anywhere near that gun.

You're on the wrong plot.
This seemingly endless derail they're having is about the recent rifle kaboom of a popular youtubing gun dude. A 50 cal I believe.

ponderingturtle · 26th October 2021, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Umm, no. Thats called theft. The article doesn't really specify who was doing the plinking and who knew about it. But I mean... come on. The armorer had to have known that in between filming that people were bringing in live ammo and plinking. She may have been one of them! Civil suits are going to be thick in this case, and criminal liability is a possibility. Interesting to see if Baldwin knew about this.

Evidence that they even had a proper armorer? The person who got the gun seems to be an assistant director, no statements I have seen of a proper armorer being on set let alone going plinking with people. The guns just seem to have been left out.

Jim_MDP · 26th October 2021, 08:42 AM

Just read a notice Fillion's cop drama The Rookie posted yesterday... they'll switch completely to the Airsoft and CGI route.
Didn't catch when, but I'd like to see if I notice the change. They're back on Halloween so it'll be an episode or three after that I'd guess. Maybe longer actually... gear, procedures, cast and crew to train.

SuburbanTurkey · 26th October 2021, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Evidence that they even had a proper armorer? The person who got the gun seems to be an assistant director, no statements I have seen of a proper armorer being on set let alone going plinking with people. The guns just seem to have been left out.

The armorer is reported to be the 24 year old daughter of a famous Hollywood armorer.

This story has everything, a grisly accident, sketchy work conditions and clueless scabs, nepotism in key oversight positions, the works!

Man, what a cool place Hollywood is.

But yeah, you wonder what the supposed armorer for this film shoot had to say about people taking props off set to fire live rounds for fun.

26th October 2021, 01:49 AM	#481
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 27,884	Originally Posted by Jim_MDP Several details differ in that article from reporting earlier, and it's dated yesterday afternoon (~3pm Mon). Perhaps getting more accurate as we go? And you ascribe Baldwin a larger part in the production company than any I've seen reported, actually no detail is what I've seen. New article you read? Well the very first article I read about it described Baldwin as both the star of the movie and the Producer. Also, you can confirm on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film) Where it lists the "Production Companies" (plural), the first one on the list is "El Dorado Pictures". It's also the only one on the list that has a link to follow, but the link actually goes strait to Alec Baldwin's wikipedia page. From that I surmised that El Dorado Pictures = Alec Baldwin. Now, to be sure, I don't want to only rely on Wikipedia, so here is further confirmation: https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/89...n-set-shooting Quote: In August 2017, Alec Baldwin’s production company, El Dorado Pictures, signed a first-look deal with ABC Studios, which is owned by the Walt Disney Company. El Dorado Pictures develops scripted and unscripted projects under the ABC Studios banner. “Rust” is an upcoming American Western film written and directed by Joel Souza. It stars Alec Baldwin (Oscar nominee and 30 Rock star), Travis Fimmel, Brady Noon, Frances Fisher, and Jensen Ackles. Various media sites are doing a blitz to deflect blame off of Hollywood actor and producer Alec Baldwin who shot and killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

26th October 2021, 03:48 AM	#482
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop It wasn't a sub standard gun. It was sub standard ammunition. Why is a safety factor of less than 2 or it spits metal into the face and neck of the operator not unacceptable? In any other device that kind of failure at so much over expected loads would be unacceptable. But no one actually cares about safe guns, that is one reason there are so few design regulations on them.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 03:53 AM	#484
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by LondonJohn But it's a natural progression of the discussion to opine on what reforms might be instigated as a reaction to this incident. But of course the full details of the accident would have to become known first otherwise it is all off topic BS about how one thinks things worked and not how they did work on the set in question.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 03:57 AM	#485
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Puppycow There seems to be quite the effort afoot to find a scapegoat whose name isn't Alec Baldwin. In his role as producer he might be responsible, but he was following standard accepted safety practices in the industry as an actor.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 04:01 AM	#486
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by LongFuzzy There have been so many articles about this, I can't remember where I read it, but it was reported that someone on the crew took the gun the previous night and used it for target practice. That would explain how a live round got into the gun. If true(and I think that likely) that is totally ridiculous violation of safety protocol. I am also thinking how so many applauded Fury Road for using practical effects instead of CGI and risking the lives of so many stunt people.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 04:21 AM	#487
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 49,392	Originally Posted by Puppycow Well the very first article I read about it described Baldwin as both the star of the movie and the Producer. Also, you can confirm on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film) Where it lists the "Production Companies" (plural), the first one on the list is "El Dorado Pictures". It's also the only one on the list that has a link to follow, but the link actually goes strait to Alec Baldwin's wikipedia page. From that I surmised that El Dorado Pictures = Alec Baldwin. Now, to be sure, I don't want to only rely on Wikipedia, so here is further confirmation: https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/89...n-set-shooting I'm sticking with the majority of fault lands squarely on Baldwin in the end. If they were running the set sloppy and on the cheap, it was on his orders.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes." Last edited by Mike!; 26th October 2021 at 04:23 AM.

26th October 2021, 04:22 AM	#488
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Why is a safety factor of less than 2 or it spits metal into the face and neck of the operator not unacceptable? In any other device that kind of failure at so much over expected loads would be unacceptable. But no one actually cares about safe guns, that is one reason there are so few design regulations on them. We don't know what the chamber pressure was when the gun failed. Maybe the US should introduce some regulations on proofing like Europe has had for nearly 200 years

26th October 2021, 04:23 AM	#489
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Mike! I'm sticking with the majority of fault lands squarely on Baldwin in the end. I'd say there's a decent chance Baldwin is implicated in the shoddy safety management on the set. It's increasingly looking like they penny-pinched their way to disaster. Actor Alec Baldwin probably didn't do much wrong. Producer Alec Baldwin may have.

26th October 2021, 04:23 AM	#490
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle How badly did that injure the operator? Should it have killed him if he did not shove his thumb in his neck? Or did it actually fail in a safe manner for the operator unlike the gun in question? Define a 'safe manner' looking at the remains of the gun it's more luck than design that saved him.

26th October 2021, 04:39 AM	#491
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop We don't know what the chamber pressure was when the gun failed. Maybe the US should introduce some regulations on proofing like Europe has had for nearly 200 years It was designed to fail at 95,000 PSI standard chamber pressure is 60,500. So a safety factor of 1.5 assuming no material problems that were not detected first. Not very high when it is critical to life. For example with rope you typically have the breaking strength be at least 3x the working load.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 04:42 AM	#492
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Define a 'safe manner' looking at the remains of the gun it's more luck than design that saved him. Have something to contain the fragments, something between the breach and the operator would be a start. Not there on the Serbu gun. These are basic principles of engineering safety that are applied to everything that is not a firearm.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 04:44 AM	#493
Jim_MDP Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 9,300	Originally Posted by Puppycow Well the very first article I read about it described Baldwin as both the star of the movie and the Producer. Also, you can confirm on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film) Where it lists the "Production Companies" (plural), the first one on the list is "El Dorado Pictures". It's also the only one on the list that has a link to follow, but the link actually goes strait to Alec Baldwin's wikipedia page. From that I surmised that El Dorado Pictures = Alec Baldwin. Now, to be sure, I don't want to only rely on Wikipedia, so here is further confirmation: https://www.swfinstitute.org/news/89...n-set-shooting Thanks, and yeah, that's highly suggestive that major funding and control is coming either from or through Baldwin. Or both.
	__________________ ---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

26th October 2021, 04:58 AM	#494
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	Originally Posted by Jim_MDP Hell, I wrote it. Wait... what the... DARAT!!! . Kidding... but one of you mooks did change my title at the merge.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

26th October 2021, 05:07 AM	#495
Ranb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 10,696	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle And proof all your own guns, don't be like Kentucky Ballistics and have a substandard gun explode on you almost killing you. I have to draw the line somewhere. Loading proper ammo into a properly functioning firearm and conforming to the usual safety rules that everyone else is expected to follow works for me.

26th October 2021, 05:10 AM	#496
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,300	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I'd say there's a decent chance Baldwin is implicated in the shoddy safety management on the set. It's increasingly looking like they penny-pinched their way to disaster. Actor Alec Baldwin probably didn't do much wrong. Producer Alec Baldwin may have. Potentially true. But I guess it could depend a great deal on what the title "Producer" actually meant as it pertained to Baldwin and this production. In the "old" days, stars often took an Executive Producer position on a show/movie. The use of this term effectively denoted pretty clearly that the star was fulfilling only a specific subset of overall "producer" roles - notably bringing in other on-screen talent and/or directors, and making the project attractive to studios, distributors and financiers. But over the past decade or so, the demarcation lines have become increasingly blurred. It's not uncommon these days for a star to want to be billed as "Producer" rather than "Executive Producer", even if the star is still only carrying out the specific and limited functions associated with the latter title. It's likely that the main reason for this is that the very term "Executive Producer" has taken on a slightly derogatory connotation in recent times. So Baldwin's responsibilities as a "Producer" here might have been limited to those traditional "Executive Producer" roles of attracting money/distribution and high-end talent. Or he might have actually been performing the full range of roles traditionally associated with "Producer" - which would include budget oversight and management, oversight of hirings, oversight of day-to-day production of the project, and so on. If Baldwin fell into that latter camp, I'd totally agree that he probably ought to be a shamed and worried man right now.

26th October 2021, 05:17 AM	#497
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle It was designed to fail at 95,000 PSI standard chamber pressure is 60,500. So a safety factor of 1.5 assuming no material problems that were not detected first. Not very high when it is critical to life. For example with rope you typically have the breaking strength be at least 3x the working load. The M1 .50 calibre proof round gives a proofing pressure of 65,000 psi, 11,000 psi (17%) above the standard service pressure. 95,000 is easily an adequate margin. European proof houses use standard proof testS of firing two overloaded cartridges that produce 25% over pressure for rifles and 30% for pistols
	Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 26th October 2021 at 05:22 AM.

26th October 2021, 05:17 AM	#498
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Ranb I have to draw the line somewhere. Loading proper ammo into a properly functioning firearm and conforming to the usual safety rules that everyone else is expected to follow works for me. And of course engineering the equivalent safety features like cars got collapsing steering columns that don't spear the driver through the heart and crumple zones is right out.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 05:20 AM	#499
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop The M1 .50 calibre proof round gives a proofing pressure of 65,000 psi, 11,000 psi (17%) above the standard service pressure. 95,000 is easily an adequate margin. So the safety factor is only 1.17. That is really really low. But really if cars were treated like guns we would not have things like collapsible steering columns, air bags, or crumple zones. If actor Anton Yelchin's death was with a firearm instead of a car no one would blame the manufacturer for the design and instead entirely blame him.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 05:26 AM	#500
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	I'm not saying there's no blame on the shooter in the Kentucky Ballistics case. He was using old ammo of unknown provenance and before the burst there were obvious signs that things weren't right with the performance.

26th October 2021, 05:29 AM	#501
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop I'm not saying there's no blame on the shooter in the Kentucky Ballistics case. He was using old ammo of unknown provenance and before the burst there were obvious signs that things weren't right with the performance. But you are saying there is no fault in the design of the gun.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 05:38 AM	#502
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 7,660	Originally Posted by angrysoba By the way, I want to be the first to say that Donald Trump is a real ******* for what he will think about this when he wakes up. How about Donald Jr? He's selling and promoting shirts that say "Guns don't kill people. Alec Baldwin kills people." He also posted a doctored photo of Alec Baldwin wearing one of the shirts.

26th October 2021, 06:14 AM	#503
Monza Alta Viro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,307	Wow, what an ass.
Monza Alta Viro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,307

26th October 2021, 06:14 AM	#504
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle But you are saying there is no fault in the design of the gun. I don't see any evidence for a fault in the design of the gun. Ammunition faults seem to have been the problem.

26th October 2021, 06:36 AM	#505
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by Armitage72 How about Donald Jr? He's selling and promoting shirts that say "Guns don't kill people. Alec Baldwin kills people." He also posted a doctored photo of Alec Baldwin wearing one of the shirts. I think that is hilarious. As I say, live by the sword, die by the sword. Baldwin spent years mocking Trump on television. What do you expect to happen?

26th October 2021, 06:39 AM	#506
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	Originally Posted by Warp12 I think that is hilarious. As I say, live by the sword, die by the sword. Baldwin spent years mocking Trump on television. What do you expect to happen? Yeah, you are right. When it comes to the Trump family the lowest of the low is exactly the expected response.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

26th October 2021, 06:46 AM	#507
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop I don't see any evidence for a fault in the design of the gun. Ammunition faults seem to have been the problem. And there was no fault in the design of cars with steering columns that would stab you through the heart in an accident, the fault was on the driver for getting into an accident.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 06:55 AM	#508
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Well it seems in Arizona you can't stop people from just taking guns and going plinking with them. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html Taking live ammo to a set it ridiculous and using guns from the prop department even more so.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 06:57 AM	#509
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle And there was no fault in the design of cars with steering columns that would stab you through the heart in an accident, the fault was on the driver for getting into an accident. What is the point of this diversion? Cars aren't the subject of the thread and for that matter neither is the overall safety of gun design.

26th October 2021, 07:04 AM	#510
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop What is the point of this diversion? Cars aren't the subject of the thread and for that matter neither is the overall safety of gun design. It speaks to proper design engineering and how much of that responsibility is on the operator. I blame the gun enthusiasts who grab guns that do not belong to them to go plinking while at work a lot more. The film not have the guns under the control of the armorer at all times. That they did not have an armorer specifically set up the gun and be the one to hand it to Baldwin and instead had guns just laying out on a table all day seems to be a major cause of the incident.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 07:22 AM	#511
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,555	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop I don't see any evidence for a fault in the design of the gun. Ammunition faults seem to have been the problem. It depends on how you see the purpose of this particular gun. If it was designed to shoot a bullet when the trigger is pulled, it functioned as designed. If, however, it was designed to look like a firearm for theatrical purposes without actually endangering anyone, it failed miserably. Of course, there were previous reports that the gun had fired unexpectedly, which might indicate a real mechanical malfunction. It sounds like the ammunition worked exactly as designed. It just shouldn't have been anywhere near that gun.

26th October 2021, 07:44 AM	#512
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,420	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Well it seems in Arizona you can't stop people from just taking guns and going plinking with them. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html Taking live ammo to a set it ridiculous and using guns from the prop department even more so. You're one state too far west. And yes, you would be correct, in unincorporated areas plinking is legal here, as it is in most of the country I believe. ETA: I'm thinking Gov Lujan Grisham is going to push some sort of legislation about real guns with real ammo being banned from sets. Unlike AZ we are actually a blue state.
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,420	Last edited by lobosrul5; 26th October 2021 at 07:47 AM.

26th October 2021, 07:47 AM	#513
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,955	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 You're one state too far west. And yes, you would be correct, in unincorporated areas plinking is legal here, as it is in most of the country I believe. Kick ass I can just take your gun and go shooting with it without your permission? They have even better gun laws than I thought.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th October 2021, 07:54 AM	#514
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Well it seems in Arizona you can't stop people from just taking guns and going plinking with them. https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html Taking live ammo to a set it ridiculous and using guns from the prop department even more so. Baffling levels of recklessness and incompetence.

26th October 2021, 07:58 AM	#515
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Baffling levels of recklessness and incompetence. You just have to wonder if Baldwin didn't know about these activities. As a producer, perhaps this sort of thing would be of concern to him?

26th October 2021, 08:01 AM	#516
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,420	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Kick ass I can just take your gun and go shooting with it without your permission? They have even better gun laws than I thought. Umm, no. Thats called theft. The article doesn't really specify who was doing the plinking and who knew about it. But I mean... come on. The armorer had to have known that in between filming that people were bringing in live ammo and plinking. She may have been one of them! Civil suits are going to be thick in this case, and criminal liability is a possibility. Interesting to see if Baldwin knew about this.
lobosrul5 Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 4,420	Last edited by lobosrul5; 26th October 2021 at 08:05 AM.