[Merged] Alec Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun - Page 4

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 11:44 AM

*Sighs*

Steve · 22nd October 2021, 12:23 PM

If actors would actually learn how to *act* (as differentiated from role playing) there would be absolutely no need for a "prop" gun to have the capability of firing any type of projectile whatsoever.

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:24 PM

Maybe we should wait for all the facts to emerge before rushing to judgement?
And guns is one of those topics people love to pontificate on, even if they know nothing about it.
As somnone who has been an Civil War reenactor for years,and had a lot of experience with 19th century weapons, (the movie is set in the 1880's) I can't imagine how the hell live ammo instead of blanks were used.
I just hope this does not become another Gun Control yelling match, since this happened in a situation where even countries with strict gun control laws would allow guns to be used.I suspect pure idiocy was responsible.
BTW blanks, at close range, can be dangerous. A blank is a round iwht a small poder charge but no bullet/projectile. But the pure sicharge can hurt you at close range. THis si something we stress in training in my reenactor group. The rule is never discharge your weapon st any person who is less then 15 feet away from you. Live ammo is forbidden in a reenactment battle, and all weapons are inspected before a battle to be sure they are not loaded. Only time live ammo is used is on a rifle range in a shooting competion which is very carefully montoried for safety.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 12:24 PM

I fully expect Baldwin will have no culpability in this case.

However, what scenarios (if any) are there that might implicate him? I mean even as being a producer? Is there any scenario where he might be be considered even partially liable for this outcome?

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

If actors would actually learn how to *act* (as differentiated from role playing) there would be absolutely no need for a "prop" gun to have the capability of firing any type of projectile whatsoever.

BS. You just hate guns, and would totally ban them , I suspect.
How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort.
What next? Ban swords because they are potentially dangerous?
And acting ability has nothing to do with this, btw.

RecoveringYuppy · 22nd October 2021, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort.

With a prop gun with no capability of firing any type of projectile whatsoever.

Like other films have done if other posts in the thread are accurate.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

BS. You just hate guns, and would totally ban them , I suspect.
How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort.
What next? Ban swords because they are potentially dangerous?
And acting ability has nothing to do with this, btw.

Calm down.

He simply mean that you should be able to act as if the gun fires without having a blank firing prop gun.

He's correct, or at the very least has a valid point. You should be able to just give someone a totally inert non-firing gun and have them, ya know ACT, like they were firing it.

Again it is 2021 the smoke and bang can be added in later.

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd October 2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Calm down.

He simply mean that you should be able to act as if the gun fires without having a blank firing prop gun.

He's correct, or at the very least has a valid point. You should be able to just give someone a totally inert non-firing gun and have them, ya know ACT, like they were firing it.

Again it is 2021 the smoke and bang can be added in later.

I don't think any human being is going to be able to convincingly mimic the sharp recoil of a real firearm, though that's kinda a moot point because blank firing guns often have much reduced recoil anyway.

It's simply too fast to fake it, and doing so would probably be very noticeable. Better to just pretend these actors are high-speed-low-drag-tactical-elite-operators with perfect recoil control.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Calm down.

He simply mean that you should be able to act as if the gun fires without having a blank firing prop gun.

He's correct, or at the very least has a valid point. You should be able to just give someone a totally inert non-firing gun and have them, ya know ACT, like they were firing it.

Again it is 2021 the smoke and bang can be added in later.

I would also be shocked if we didn't have the technology to give a realistic feel of shooting a weapon to a completely fake gun. Some form of technology should be able to be placed in the handle, and down a fake gun that mimics the act of firing.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:39 PM

Okay the point is putting a device that is capable of firing a deadly shot under any circumstances into a movie set is not necessary

Someone can make a mechanical gun prop that recoils without actually firing anything out of its barrel or having the ability to do so if someone messes up.

Steve · 22nd October 2021, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

BS. You just hate guns, and would totally ban them , I suspect.
How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort.
What next? Ban swords because they are potentially dangerous?
And acting ability has nothing to do with this, btw.

Quite the over reaction there son

. How about you reply to what I wrote instead of what you imagined.

Prop guns are a necessity on many sets. I have no issue with that. Those guns should be rendered completely inert. And actors worthy of the name should be able to portray a convincing gun shot without actually having the prop do the job for them.

And acting ability has little to do with many things that so called actors actually do on screen.

RecoveringYuppy · 22nd October 2021, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

I would also be shocked if we didn't have the technology to give a realistic feel of shooting a weapon to a completely fake gun. Some form of technology should be able to be placed in the handle, and down a fake gun that mimics the act of firing.

Might be more trouble than it's worth but you could move a weight inside the gun to simulate the recoil. It would move fast in the right direction when simulating the recoil then move back in to position more slowly at a pace the actor could resist.

For small guns that might be hard to do. And the mechanism might bring it's own safety risks.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:42 PM

But, not to step on my own point but just for completeness and fairness, as I said earlier we are talking 3 (and that's if you want to count Jon-Erik Hexum which you arguably could not do) deaths related to prop handguns in the last 40 years so....

There's been dozens of stunt driver and several stunt pilot deaths I can name off the top of my head and we still just use modified cars and planes.

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Quite the over reaction there son

. How about you reply to what I wrote instead of what you imagined.

Prop guns are a necessity on many sets. I have no issue with that. Those guns should be rendered completely inert. And actors worthy of the name should be able to portray a convincing gun shot without actually having the prop do the job for them.

And acting ability has little to do with many things that so called actors actually do on screen.

Ever hear of blank rounds? Used in films all the time.
And, on stage as well.
Not to mention renactments .
If safety procedures are followed, no one is hurt. Safety procedures were not followed.
I repeat, I suspect you just want to ban all firearms, period.

Steve · 22nd October 2021, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Might be more trouble than it's worth but you could move a weight inside the gun to simulate the recoil. It would move fast in the right direction when simulating the recoil then move back in to position more slowly at a pace the actor could resist.

For small guns that might be hard to do. And the mechanism might bring it's own safety risks.

Applying a little technology to potentially save a life or prevent injury seems worthwhile to me.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 12:44 PM

Prop guns: What they are and how they can kill

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/enter...ths/index.html

Hercules Rockefeller · 22nd October 2021, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

I would also be shocked if we didn't have the technology to give a realistic feel of shooting a weapon to a completely fake gun. Some form of technology should be able to be placed in the handle, and down a fake gun that mimics the act of firing.

Go to the 5 minute mark (airsoft).

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

But, not to step on my own point but just for completeness and fairness, we are talking 3 (and that's if you want to count Jon-Erik Hexum which you arguably could not do) deaths related to prop handguns in the last 40 years so....

And when is the last time you read about someone being killed by a bullet at a Civil War, Revolutinary War, name whatever war you like where firearms were used reenactment?

Of course this should be fully investigated..it will be, the film industry guilds will see to that.
I was hoping this would not become another gun control shouting match, but it has.
Just confrims my opinion that some gun conrtrol advocates really want to ban the private ownership of guns period, even black powder replicas.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And when is the last time you read about someone being killed by a bullet at a Civil War, Revolutinary War, name whatever war you like where firearms were used reenactment?

Of course this should be fully investigated..it will be, the film industry guilds will see to that.
I was hoping this would not become another gun control shouting match, but it has.
Just confrims my opinion that some gun conrtrol advocates really want to ban the private ownership of guns period, even black powder replicas.

You're literally the first person shouting.

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Applying a little technology to potentially save a life or prevent injury seems worthwhile to me.

You don't have to pay for it.
And, as pointed out, how often odes this happen?
I freely admit you would probably ban Historical reenactments because they iinvolve the use of firearms. You can't cgi at a reenactment..or on stage for that matter.

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

You're literally the first person shouting.

Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page.

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

I would also be shocked if we didn't have the technology to give a realistic feel of shooting a weapon to a completely fake gun. Some form of technology should be able to be placed in the handle, and down a fake gun that mimics the act of firing.

Blanks usually don't give any recoil, anyway. That has been "faked" for years.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page.

Yeah you're off screaming at voices in the wind to a degree that would make ponderingturtle proud.

You went off on some wild tangent about stage whatever Civil War fan club you're a fan off.

Warp12 · 22nd October 2021, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page.

Originally Posted by Steve

"Guns don't kill people...... " well, you all know.

I thought he was making a joke:

"Guns don't kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people."

Maybe I read it wrong?

dudalb · 22nd October 2021, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Yeah you're off screaming at voices in the wind to a degree that would make ponderingturtle proud.

You went off on some wild tangent about stage whatever Civil War fan club you're a fan off.

And you don't know much about reeanctments, do you?

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And you don't know much about reeanctments, do you?

Huh suddenly your spelling, grammar, and formatting got a lot better last couple of posts.

Funny... that.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And you don't know much about reeanctments, do you?

I know enough about them to know they have nothing to do with anything anyone is talking about now until you brought it up.

shemp · 22nd October 2021, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

But, not to step on my own point but just for completeness and fairness, as I said earlier we are talking 3 (and that's if you want to count Jon-Erik Hexum which you arguably could not do) deaths related to prop handguns in the last 40 years so....

There's been dozens of stunt driver and several stunt pilot deaths I can name off the top of my head and we still just use modified cars and planes.

List of film and television accidents

A search of this list only brings up the three deaths related to prop handguns. But it also backs up your point about numerous stunt deaths. These deaths were completely unnecessary, but they're still happening.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

List of film and television accidents

A search of this list only brings up the three deaths related to prop handguns. But it also backs up your point about numerous stunt deaths. These deaths were completely unnecessary, but they're still happening.

Well CGI and even robotics* are reducing the dependence on stuntmen as well. I can also safely assume that a lot of older dangerous vehicle crashes and other stunts would be done with CGI these days. I don't see this as a bad thing.

*https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/28/di...stunt-doubles/

Steve · 22nd October 2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Ever hear of blank rounds? Used in films all the time.
And, on stage as well.
Not to mention renactments .
If safety procedures are followed, no one is hurt. Safety procedures were not followed.
I repeat, I suspect you just want to ban all firearms, period.

Well you suspect wrong. True, I do not care for the ubiquitousness of privately owned firearms, but I would not care to see them all banned. Hunting and target shooting are legitimate uses that I am quite content to see continue. Enough of this silly sidebar.

Now, blank rounds carelessly discharged have killed. Guns that were mistakenly not loaded with blank rounds have killed. In a situation such as filming there is absolutely no reason at all for a prop firearm to be capable of discharging anything at all from the barrel. Then safety procedures would be as redundant for a prop firearm as they are for a prop light saber. They seem to have managed somehow to portray light saber deaths in movies without using real lasers.

kookbreaker · 22nd October 2021, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Maybe we should wait for all the facts to emerge before rushing to judgement?
And guns is one of those topics people love to pontificate on, even if they know nothing about it.
As somnone who has been an Civil War reenactor for years,and had a lot of experience with 19th century weapons, (the movie is set in the 1880's) I can't imagine how the hell live ammo instead of blanks were used.
I just hope this does not become another Gun Control yelling match, since this happened in a situation where even countries with strict gun control laws would allow guns to be used.I suspect pure idiocy was responsible.
BTW blanks, at close range, can be dangerous. A blank is a round iwht a small poder charge but no bullet/projectile. But the pure sicharge can hurt you at close range. THis si something we stress in training in my reenactor group. The rule is never discharge your weapon st any person who is less then 15 feet away from you. Live ammo is forbidden in a reenactment battle, and all weapons are inspected before a battle to be sure they are not loaded. Only time live ammo is used is on a rifle range in a shooting competion which is very carefully montoried for safety.

This is pretty much my experience as a Rev War reenactor. Before the battles we would have to take the ramrods and drop them into the musket barrels - if there was no resounding "ping" of the rod hitting the base of the barrel that meant there was probably trouble - dirt getting in the barrel, a blank round someone forgot to dump after the last battle, or a rusted barrel being the most likely culprits, it was rare that it was a true live round.

Rev War was relatively easy as everything is a single shot flintlock. In Civil War there are more potential issues with cap and ball revolvers being harder to check. It worried some of my fellows who also did Civil War since the yahoos who carried revolvers were often 'dismounted cavalry' of the "yee-haa" brigade and not the most responsible of firearms users.

Captain_Swoop · 22nd October 2021, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

Go to the 5 minute mark (airsoft).

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

My son is in to Airsoft. He has an electric AR that has recoil and just about all airsoft pistols have slides that cycle.

Captain_Swoop · 22nd October 2021, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And when is the last time you read about someone being killed by a bullet at a Civil War, Revolutinary War, name whatever war you like where firearms were used reenactment?

Of course this should be fully investigated..it will be, the film industry guilds will see to that.
I was hoping this would not become another gun control shouting match, but it has.
Just confrims my opinion that some gun conrtrol advocates really want to ban the private ownership of guns period, even black powder replicas.

Who, apart from you is shouting about gun control?

Steve · 22nd October 2021, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

You don't have to pay for it.
And, as pointed out, how often odes this happen?
I freely admit you would probably ban Historical reenactments because they iinvolve the use of firearms. You can't cgi at a reenactment..or on stage for that matter.

You "admit" that?

Yeah I know, an occasional death is a reasonable price for a grieving family to pay for the public to be entertained by "realistic" appearing movies. Sick attitude, son.

Captain_Swoop · 22nd October 2021, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

List of film and television accidents

A search of this list only brings up the three deaths related to prop handguns. But it also backs up your point about numerous stunt deaths. These deaths were completely unnecessary, but they're still happening.

Chip Cobb.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Steve · 22nd October 2021, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page.

Originally Posted by Warp12

I thought he was making a joke:

"Guns don't kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people."

Maybe I read it wrong?

It's a thread involving guns. Certain memes are mandatory. I wanted to get there first. There is always a poster or two who overreact.

JoeMorgue · 22nd October 2021, 01:13 PM

I don't remember people who fly helicopters for fun acting as if changes made in response to the Twilight Zone: The Movie incident were a personal attack on them.

Steve · 22nd October 2021, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

Go to the 5 minute mark (airsoft).

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

That's pretty cool. Seems like the technology to drastically improve the safety of prop firearms is feasible.

RecoveringYuppy · 22nd October 2021, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Applying a little technology to potentially save a life or prevent injury seems worthwhile to me.

Right. Read a bit more of my post. Is it worth it if the cost is creating more deaths and injuries some other way? The device I described is not guaranteed to be without problems.

It's just a throw off idea that isn't even ready for Shark Tank.

plague311 · 22nd October 2021, 01:15 PM

Well, this has certainly taken a header off a cliff.

All of the civil war, and gun fighting aside, I don't think there has to be any drastic changes, but I do think using some form of airsoft or mechanical gun that can't shoot or be loaded would be easier for all involved

22nd October 2021, 11:44 AM	#121
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Sighs
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd October 2021, 12:23 PM	#122
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	If actors would actually learn how to act (as differentiated from role playing) there would be absolutely no need for a "prop" gun to have the capability of firing any type of projectile whatsoever.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

22nd October 2021, 12:24 PM	#123
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Maybe we should wait for all the facts to emerge before rushing to judgement? And guns is one of those topics people love to pontificate on, even if they know nothing about it. As somnone who has been an Civil War reenactor for years,and had a lot of experience with 19th century weapons, (the movie is set in the 1880's) I can't imagine how the hell live ammo instead of blanks were used. I just hope this does not become another Gun Control yelling match, since this happened in a situation where even countries with strict gun control laws would allow guns to be used.I suspect pure idiocy was responsible. BTW blanks, at close range, can be dangerous. A blank is a round iwht a small poder charge but no bullet/projectile. But the pure sicharge can hurt you at close range. THis si something we stress in training in my reenactor group. The rule is never discharge your weapon st any person who is less then 15 feet away from you. Live ammo is forbidden in a reenactment battle, and all weapons are inspected before a battle to be sure they are not loaded. Only time live ammo is used is on a rifle range in a shooting competion which is very carefully montoried for safety.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:28 PM	#125
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Originally Posted by Steve If actors would actually learn how to act (as differentiated from role playing) there would be absolutely no need for a "prop" gun to have the capability of firing any type of projectile whatsoever. BS. You just hate guns, and would totally ban them , I suspect. How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort. What next? Ban swords because they are potentially dangerous? And acting ability has nothing to do with this, btw.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:30 PM	#127
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by dudalb BS. You just hate guns, and would totally ban them , I suspect. How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort. What next? Ban swords because they are potentially dangerous? And acting ability has nothing to do with this, btw. Calm down. He simply mean that you should be able to act as if the gun fires without having a blank firing prop gun. He's correct, or at the very least has a valid point. You should be able to just give someone a totally inert non-firing gun and have them, ya know ACT, like they were firing it. Again it is 2021 the smoke and bang can be added in later.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd October 2021 at 12:32 PM.

22nd October 2021, 12:24 PM	#124
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	I fully expect Baldwin will have no culpability in this case. However, what scenarios (if any) are there that might implicate him? I mean even as being a producer? Is there any scenario where he might be be considered even partially liable for this outcome?

22nd October 2021, 12:30 PM	#126
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14,185	Originally Posted by dudalb How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort. With a prop gun with no capability of firing any type of projectile whatsoever. Like other films have done if other posts in the thread are accurate.

22nd October 2021, 12:36 PM	#128
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Calm down. He simply mean that you should be able to act as if the gun fires without having a blank firing prop gun. He's correct, or at the very least has a valid point. You should be able to just give someone a totally inert non-firing gun and have them, ya know ACT, like they were firing it. Again it is 2021 the smoke and bang can be added in later. I don't think any human being is going to be able to convincingly mimic the sharp recoil of a real firearm, though that's kinda a moot point because blank firing guns often have much reduced recoil anyway. It's simply too fast to fake it, and doing so would probably be very noticeable. Better to just pretend these actors are high-speed-low-drag-tactical-elite-operators with perfect recoil control.

22nd October 2021, 12:37 PM	#129
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,789	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Calm down. He simply mean that you should be able to act as if the gun fires without having a blank firing prop gun. He's correct, or at the very least has a valid point. You should be able to just give someone a totally inert non-firing gun and have them, ya know ACT, like they were firing it. Again it is 2021 the smoke and bang can be added in later. I would also be shocked if we didn't have the technology to give a realistic feel of shooting a weapon to a completely fake gun. Some form of technology should be able to be placed in the handle, and down a fake gun that mimics the act of firing.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

22nd October 2021, 12:39 PM	#130
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Okay the point is putting a device that is capable of firing a deadly shot under any circumstances into a movie set is not necessary Someone can make a mechanical gun prop that recoils without actually firing anything out of its barrel or having the ability to do so if someone messes up.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd October 2021, 12:39 PM	#131
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	Originally Posted by dudalb BS. You just hate guns, and would totally ban them , I suspect. How the hell are you going to shoot a gun battle without a gun of some sort. What next? Ban swords because they are potentially dangerous? And acting ability has nothing to do with this, btw. Quite the over reaction there son . How about you reply to what I wrote instead of what you imagined. Prop guns are a necessity on many sets. I have no issue with that. Those guns should be rendered completely inert. And actors worthy of the name should be able to portray a convincing gun shot without actually having the prop do the job for them. And acting ability has little to do with many things that so called actors actually do on screen.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

22nd October 2021, 12:41 PM	#132
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14,185	Originally Posted by plague311 I would also be shocked if we didn't have the technology to give a realistic feel of shooting a weapon to a completely fake gun. Some form of technology should be able to be placed in the handle, and down a fake gun that mimics the act of firing. Might be more trouble than it's worth but you could move a weight inside the gun to simulate the recoil. It would move fast in the right direction when simulating the recoil then move back in to position more slowly at a pace the actor could resist. For small guns that might be hard to do. And the mechanism might bring it's own safety risks.

22nd October 2021, 12:42 PM	#133
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	But, not to step on my own point but just for completeness and fairness, as I said earlier we are talking 3 (and that's if you want to count Jon-Erik Hexum which you arguably could not do) deaths related to prop handguns in the last 40 years so.... There's been dozens of stunt driver and several stunt pilot deaths I can name off the top of my head and we still just use modified cars and planes.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd October 2021 at 12:43 PM.

22nd October 2021, 12:43 PM	#134
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Originally Posted by Steve Quite the over reaction there son . How about you reply to what I wrote instead of what you imagined. Prop guns are a necessity on many sets. I have no issue with that. Those guns should be rendered completely inert. And actors worthy of the name should be able to portray a convincing gun shot without actually having the prop do the job for them. And acting ability has little to do with many things that so called actors actually do on screen. Ever hear of blank rounds? Used in films all the time. And, on stage as well. Not to mention renactments . If safety procedures are followed, no one is hurt. Safety procedures were not followed. I repeat, I suspect you just want to ban all firearms, period.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:43 PM	#135
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy Might be more trouble than it's worth but you could move a weight inside the gun to simulate the recoil. It would move fast in the right direction when simulating the recoil then move back in to position more slowly at a pace the actor could resist. For small guns that might be hard to do. And the mechanism might bring it's own safety risks. Applying a little technology to potentially save a life or prevent injury seems worthwhile to me.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

22nd October 2021, 12:44 PM	#136
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Prop guns: What they are and how they can kill https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/enter...ths/index.html

22nd October 2021, 12:46 PM	#138
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue But, not to step on my own point but just for completeness and fairness, we are talking 3 (and that's if you want to count Jon-Erik Hexum which you arguably could not do) deaths related to prop handguns in the last 40 years so.... And when is the last time you read about someone being killed by a bullet at a Civil War, Revolutinary War, name whatever war you like where firearms were used reenactment? Of course this should be fully investigated..it will be, the film industry guilds will see to that. I was hoping this would not become another gun control shouting match, but it has. Just confrims my opinion that some gun conrtrol advocates really want to ban the private ownership of guns period, even black powder replicas.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:47 PM	#139
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by dudalb And when is the last time you read about someone being killed by a bullet at a Civil War, Revolutinary War, name whatever war you like where firearms were used reenactment? Of course this should be fully investigated..it will be, the film industry guilds will see to that. I was hoping this would not become another gun control shouting match, but it has. Just confrims my opinion that some gun conrtrol advocates really want to ban the private ownership of guns period, even black powder replicas. You're literally the first person shouting.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd October 2021, 12:49 PM	#140
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Originally Posted by Steve Applying a little technology to potentially save a life or prevent injury seems worthwhile to me. You don't have to pay for it. And, as pointed out, how often odes this happen? I freely admit you would probably ban Historical reenactments because they iinvolve the use of firearms. You can't cgi at a reenactment..or on stage for that matter.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:50 PM	#141
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue You're literally the first person shouting. Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:51 PM	#142
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Originally Posted by plague311 I would also be shocked if we didn't have the technology to give a realistic feel of shooting a weapon to a completely fake gun. Some form of technology should be able to be placed in the handle, and down a fake gun that mimics the act of firing. Blanks usually don't give any recoil, anyway. That has been "faked" for years.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:51 PM	#143
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by dudalb Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page. Yeah you're off screaming at voices in the wind to a degree that would make ponderingturtle proud. You went off on some wild tangent about stage whatever Civil War fan club you're a fan off.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd October 2021, 12:51 PM	#144
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by dudalb Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page. Originally Posted by Steve "Guns don't kill people...... " well, you all know. I thought he was making a joke: "Guns don't kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people." Maybe I read it wrong?

22nd October 2021, 12:53 PM	#145
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,759	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Yeah you're off screaming at voices in the wind to a degree that would make ponderingturtle proud. You went off on some wild tangent about stage whatever Civil War fan club you're a fan off. And you don't know much about reeanctments, do you?
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd October 2021, 12:54 PM	#146
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by dudalb And you don't know much about reeanctments, do you? Huh suddenly your spelling, grammar, and formatting got a lot better last couple of posts. Funny... that.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd October 2021, 12:54 PM	#147
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by dudalb And you don't know much about reeanctments, do you? I know enough about them to know they have nothing to do with anything anyone is talking about now until you brought it up.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd October 2021, 12:56 PM	#148
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War Posts: 53,774	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue But, not to step on my own point but just for completeness and fairness, as I said earlier we are talking 3 (and that's if you want to count Jon-Erik Hexum which you arguably could not do) deaths related to prop handguns in the last 40 years so.... There's been dozens of stunt driver and several stunt pilot deaths I can name off the top of my head and we still just use modified cars and planes. List of film and television accidents A search of this list only brings up the three deaths related to prop handguns. But it also backs up your point about numerous stunt deaths. These deaths were completely unnecessary, but they're still happening.
	__________________ "Yes, I'll be around for many more centuries. You, meanwhile, will have long ago been turned into value dog food, despite your express wishes to the contrary." -- JihadJane

22nd October 2021, 12:59 PM	#149
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	Originally Posted by shemp List of film and television accidents A search of this list only brings up the three deaths related to prop handguns. But it also backs up your point about numerous stunt deaths. These deaths were completely unnecessary, but they're still happening. Well CGI and even robotics* are reducing the dependence on stuntmen as well. I can also safely assume that a lot of older dangerous vehicle crashes and other stunts would be done with CGI these days. I don't see this as a bad thing. *https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/28/di...stunt-doubles/
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd October 2021, 12:59 PM	#150
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	Originally Posted by dudalb Ever hear of blank rounds? Used in films all the time. And, on stage as well. Not to mention renactments . If safety procedures are followed, no one is hurt. Safety procedures were not followed. I repeat, I suspect you just want to ban all firearms, period. Well you suspect wrong. True, I do not care for the ubiquitousness of privately owned firearms, but I would not care to see them all banned. Hunting and target shooting are legitimate uses that I am quite content to see continue. Enough of this silly sidebar. Now, blank rounds carelessly discharged have killed. Guns that were mistakenly not loaded with blank rounds have killed. In a situation such as filming there is absolutely no reason at all for a prop firearm to be capable of discharging anything at all from the barrel. Then safety procedures would be as redundant for a prop firearm as they are for a prop light saber. They seem to have managed somehow to portray light saber deaths in movies without using real lasers.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

22nd October 2021, 01:00 PM	#151
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,385	Originally Posted by dudalb Maybe we should wait for all the facts to emerge before rushing to judgement? And guns is one of those topics people love to pontificate on, even if they know nothing about it. As somnone who has been an Civil War reenactor for years,and had a lot of experience with 19th century weapons, (the movie is set in the 1880's) I can't imagine how the hell live ammo instead of blanks were used. I just hope this does not become another Gun Control yelling match, since this happened in a situation where even countries with strict gun control laws would allow guns to be used.I suspect pure idiocy was responsible. BTW blanks, at close range, can be dangerous. A blank is a round iwht a small poder charge but no bullet/projectile. But the pure sicharge can hurt you at close range. THis si something we stress in training in my reenactor group. The rule is never discharge your weapon st any person who is less then 15 feet away from you. Live ammo is forbidden in a reenactment battle, and all weapons are inspected before a battle to be sure they are not loaded. Only time live ammo is used is on a rifle range in a shooting competion which is very carefully montoried for safety. This is pretty much my experience as a Rev War reenactor. Before the battles we would have to take the ramrods and drop them into the musket barrels - if there was no resounding "ping" of the rod hitting the base of the barrel that meant there was probably trouble - dirt getting in the barrel, a blank round someone forgot to dump after the last battle, or a rusted barrel being the most likely culprits, it was rare that it was a true live round. Rev War was relatively easy as everything is a single shot flintlock. In Civil War there are more potential issues with cap and ball revolvers being harder to check. It worried some of my fellows who also did Civil War since the yahoos who carried revolvers were often 'dismounted cavalry' of the "yee-haa" brigade and not the most responsible of firearms users.
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- Last edited by kookbreaker; 22nd October 2021 at 01:07 PM.

22nd October 2021, 01:02 PM	#153
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by dudalb And when is the last time you read about someone being killed by a bullet at a Civil War, Revolutinary War, name whatever war you like where firearms were used reenactment? Of course this should be fully investigated..it will be, the film industry guilds will see to that. I was hoping this would not become another gun control shouting match, but it has. Just confrims my opinion that some gun conrtrol advocates really want to ban the private ownership of guns period, even black powder replicas. Who, apart from you is shouting about gun control?

22nd October 2021, 01:04 PM	#154
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	Originally Posted by dudalb You don't have to pay for it. And, as pointed out, how often odes this happen? I freely admit you would probably ban Historical reenactments because they iinvolve the use of firearms. You can't cgi at a reenactment..or on stage for that matter. You "admit" that? Yeah I know, an occasional death is a reasonable price for a grieving family to pay for the public to be entertained by "realistic" appearing movies. Sick attitude, son.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

22nd October 2021, 01:07 PM	#156
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,187	Originally Posted by dudalb Not really. Steve posted a classic Anti Gun slogan on the first page. Originally Posted by Warp12 I thought he was making a joke: "Guns don't kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people." Maybe I read it wrong? It's a thread involving guns. Certain memes are mandatory. I wanted to get there first. There is always a poster or two who overreact.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

22nd October 2021, 01:13 PM	#157
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,031	I don't remember people who fly helicopters for fun acting as if changes made in response to the Twilight Zone: The Movie incident were a personal attack on them.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd October 2021 at 01:16 PM.

22nd October 2021, 01:14 PM	#159
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14,185	Originally Posted by Steve Applying a little technology to potentially save a life or prevent injury seems worthwhile to me. Right. Read a bit more of my post. Is it worth it if the cost is creating more deaths and injuries some other way? The device I described is not guaranteed to be without problems. It's just a throw off idea that isn't even ready for Shark Tank.