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Old 26th September 2022, 09:05 PM   #201
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Here in Japan, students aren't even allowed to color their hair or wear certain trendy hairstyles because they think it would be a distraction. I think the same goes for teachers, although you don't often hear much about that side of it (usually it's the students who run afoul of these norms, not the teachers; they get into trouble for other reasons).

I just want to be sure: These are prostheses, not a permanent surgical alteration, right? That would seem to make for an easy solution, just ban the prostheses, but would leave open the question of what to do when someone has surgery to achieve the same result.

Here's what Google says about the term "gender expression":
Quote:
the way in which a person expresses their gender identity, typically through their appearance, dress, and behaviour.
Does that mean that anyone always has the legal right to wear gigantic prosthetic breasts on the job in Canada and nobody can tell them to stop doing it or fire them or discipline them in any way even if they persist?

Some have suggested that this is either a "stunt" or "trolling." I'm not convinced. I don't rule it out, but I think it doesn't really matter. What, if anything, do they want to achieve? Merely to attract attention to themselves? To provoke controversy? As a joke? Hoax? Social commentary? Performance art? I have no idea, and I'm not sure it even matters. A sort of paraphilic disorder (e.g., exhibitionism) seems like a more likely explanation to me.

It seems clear that at least some of the students who attend the school were made to feel uncomfortable.

Quote:
Most of the students who spilled out of the school’s numerous exits left to start their weekends but a group of mostly senior grade students joined the protest.

Police officers, facing a crowd that swelled to nearly 100, escorted vehicles out of the school parking lot.

‘Thank you for speaking up for us,’ one male student shouted before being handed a megaphone. ‘This is a school not a circus! We just want to learn!’

Another student told the protesters he doesn’t go to school to be ‘distracted.’

‘It’s so crazy that nobody is doing anything.’

Students who joined the fracas said they are bound by a dress code that prohibits visible nipples or genitalia so they are left wondering why the same rules don’t apply to Lemieux.
In my opinion, the students have a very fair point.
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Old 26th September 2022, 10:28 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post


Okay, what harm has been caused? I think the burden is on those who claim harm has occurred to prove it, not upon those who don't know if harm has occurred to disprove it. I'm open to the possibility that harm may have been caused: but if it has that harm should be able to be specified, demonstrated, and quantified. I'm not sure "upset" and "distress" will pass critical scrutiny. They sound rather vague to me.
I'm not sure the onus is on me as you were the one to first claim that harm needs to be demonstrated before the teacher was taken to task.

Students have been quoted in this thread saying that they were distracted and that learning wasn't happening in their class. That to me is harm.
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Old 26th September 2022, 10:35 PM   #203
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From The Daily Mail article:

Quote:
Lemieux is being protected at the school by both a private security firm and officers from the Halton Regional Police Service.

On Friday, a police SUV made the rounds of the school parking lot while another sat at the entrance to the property.

Students said the heavy police presence is more interesting than Lemieux's heavy prosthetics.

'It's kind of nuts that we're almost under lockdown just because of haters,' complained Mark, a Grade 11 student, who said school officials 'haven't really talked about what's going on except to tell us to report suspicious people on the grounds.'
As far as I can tell, no 'hater' has yet committed any act of violence on or near school property. The heavy police presence is something I assume that school district officials have asked for, in anticipation of violence. I suppose that it's likely that they have received threatening communications via e-mail or other means, but the decision to have police present was not made by the 'haters'. It was made by the school administrators and school district officials.
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Old 26th September 2022, 11:23 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In either case, whether a rule is narrow and detailed or vague and broad I think it still needs to only prohibit things that cause quantifiable harm, and that this has not been demonstrated to be the case here.
Apparently the school has hired a private security firm to provide extra security for Lemieux. That is at least a quantifiable additional cost. Whether the extra security is actually necessary is unknown at this time. But the additional cost to the school could be quantified.
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Old 26th September 2022, 11:37 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Apparently the school has hired a private security firm to provide extra security for Lemieux. That is at least a quantifiable additional cost. Whether the extra security is actually necessary is unknown at this time. But the additional cost to the school could be quantified.
I have no problem with a school paying to protect a member of staff. If the teacher is being threatened, the blame should go on the person making the threats, not the teacher.

We cannot have a situation where someone is blamed for the extra security needed to protect them.
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Old 26th September 2022, 11:44 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I have no problem with a school paying to protect a member of staff. If the teacher is being threatened, the blame should go on the person making the threats, not the teacher.

We cannot have a situation where someone is blamed for the extra security needed to protect them.
I understand that. It's not clear to me who made any specific credible threat though. If anyone did, that would be a crime.
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:50 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I understand that. It's not clear to me who made any specific credible threat though. If anyone did, that would be a crime.
The interesting thing is that when JK Rowling was threatened with murder for doing nothing more than making the reasonable point that trans rights could impact on women’s rights, many of the trans rights tribe said she was a transphobe and deserved what she got. I don’t see anyone threatening this teacher’s life. Just ridiculing him.
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:58 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I understand that. It's not clear to me who made any specific credible threat though. If anyone did, that would be a crime.
Yes, a crime and repugnant behaviour. But I was interested that you are putting the cost of the teacher's security in the "quantifiable harm" category.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Apparently the school has hired a private security firm to provide extra security for Lemieux. That is at least a quantifiable additional cost. Whether the extra security is actually necessary is unknown at this time. But the additional cost to the school could be quantified.
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The interesting thing is that when JK Rowling was threatened with murder for doing nothing more than making the reasonable point that trans rights could impact on women’s rights, many of the trans rights tribe said she was a transphobe and deserved what she got. I don’t see anyone threatening this teacher’s life. Just ridiculing him.
It is disgusting to threaten JK Rowling with murder. If she received security to protect her, I hope nobody blamed her for needing it.

People should not go around threatening people with murder, and if people do get death threats for their freedom of expression, then we must condemn that and not blame the person being threatened for the "quantifiable harm" of the additional security.
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Old 27th September 2022, 01:01 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don’t see anyone threatening this teacher’s life. Just ridiculing him.
That may well have happened, but I haven't seen it reported.

These days it's so easy to threaten people in a semi-anonymous way via the internet, I assume that most people who are (a) either somewhat famous or otherwise in the public eye, and (b) in any way controversial, likely receive threats of some kind. Whether those threats are credible threats is another question.
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Old 27th September 2022, 01:20 AM   #210
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TBH, I say let him dress however he wishes. Probably it's more like the parents than the students that feel threatened, anyway. The kids probably learned a long time ago that a bunch of adults are weird and stupid, and most will probably just ignore him. As in, even on other topics, when they shouldn't. Once you deliberately pull all the respect you ever had into the basement, by being an obvious troll, yeah, that's kinda it, you've lost all respect.
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Old 27th September 2022, 04:53 AM   #211
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I'm still wondering if it is all about the nipples.

If the school dress code for the kids is no noticeable nipples then it doesn't seem unreasonable that it should also extend to teachers. (I don't know why the school has that provision for students, that may not be based on anything bar a "sense of propriety".)
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Old 27th September 2022, 06:16 AM   #212
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I do wonder if this showboating will have an effect on the next round of contract negotiations. School teacher isn't tenure and the current contract will expire.

Problem children tend to need to move about more in life because someone gets sick of dealing with them eventually.
Rather than risk a day in court , ride it out and plan to not need this individual next school year cycle.
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Old 27th September 2022, 06:52 AM   #213
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Mod Warningarguments already exhausted in that other thread will not be re-hashed in this one. Please stick to the topic.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:sarge
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Old 27th September 2022, 07:08 AM   #214
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Latest from the main stream media:

Halton teacher controversy prompts request for review of professional standards

The Wheels of the Gods are grinding slowly.

Quote:
Education Minister Stephen Lecce has asked the Ontario College of Teachers to review and “consider strengthening” professional standards in light of the controversy over a trans high school teacher in Oakville who wears oversized prosthetic breasts with protruding nipples.
Quote:
Sources, however, say the review could include some sort of standard dress code — which for students in Halton bans any clothing that leaves nipples visible — or a tightening of ethical standards which currently state teachers must “uphold the honour and dignity of the teaching profession.”
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Old 27th September 2022, 07:16 AM   #215
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Thanks for that. I do, however, have difficulty seeing how the exploding milk bombs didn't fall foul of the current ethical standards. So how is "tightening" them going to help?

Edited by xjx388:  <SNIP>
Edited for Rule 11 and ignoring a mod box.
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Old 27th September 2022, 07:22 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm still wondering if it is all about the nipples.

If the school dress code for the kids is no noticeable nipples then it doesn't seem unreasonable that it should also extend to teachers. (I don't know why the school has that provision for students, that may not be based on anything bar a "sense of propriety".)
Probably because in the past it was considered that teachers had enough common sense to not dress in a wildly inappropriate manner even without a formal dress code. Because they are supposed to be responsible adults.

Perhaps it merely needs to be clarified that the dress code applies to everyone, students and staff alike.

But I think it's not only the nipples. It's the grotesque, unnatural size.
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Old 27th September 2022, 07:24 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm still wondering if it is all about the nipples.

If the school dress code for the kids is no noticeable nipples then it doesn't seem unreasonable that it should also extend to teachers. (I don't know why the school has that provision for students, that may not be based on anything bar a "sense of propriety".)
Well....they're not nipples. Fake nips in an area and on a body that they can't even physically exist is getting into a kind of gray zone.
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Old 27th September 2022, 07:55 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well....they're not nipples. Fake nips in an area and on a body that they can't even physically exist is getting into a kind of gray zone.

Would fake penises protruding from portions of the body they wouldn't naturally occur also be a "gray zone?"
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Old 27th September 2022, 08:05 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Would fake penises protruding from portions of the body they wouldn't naturally occur also be a "gray zone?"
Based on the dress code, not really. Genetalia and nips are real body parts. What I'm saying is that appealing to the dress code is not going to work.
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Old 27th September 2022, 08:06 AM   #220
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I'm waiting for an interview with the individual involved. I presume there are reports trying to talk to X but, so far, we have no idea what the motivation for the stunt exercise is.
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Old 27th September 2022, 08:15 AM   #221
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I think expecting to get a truthful answer to questions like that is a bit much. But one might be able to infer something from whatever is said.
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Old 27th September 2022, 10:04 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well....they're not nipples. Fake nips in an area and on a body that they can't even physically exist is getting into a kind of gray zone.
Er.. men and women (of both genders ) have nipples. God only knows where those nipples on the 600lb people are.

I can’t see any reason that “no nipples showing” is hard to codified whether those nipples are artificial or not.
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Old 27th September 2022, 10:06 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Probably because in the past it was considered that teachers had enough common sense to not dress in a wildly inappropriate manner even without a formal dress code. Because they are supposed to be responsible adults.

Perhaps it merely needs to be clarified that the dress code applies to everyone, students and staff alike.

But I think it's not only the nipples. It's the grotesque, unnatural size.
Without the nipples (I may have a go at photoshopping an image without them) I doubt we would even think they were breasts, probably think they were some form of tumour or growth.
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Old 27th September 2022, 10:07 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Based on the dress code, not really. Genetalia and nips are real body parts. What I'm saying is that appealing to the dress code is not going to work.
Why ever not - they already apply a no nipple showing for the kids.
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Old 27th September 2022, 10:25 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why ever not - they already apply a no nipple showing for the kids.
As I said, nipples are real parts of human anatomy. I'm not so sure a piece of plastic or cloth can be extrapolated to being equivalent to a part of human physiology.

Then you could get into enforceability of such a vague rule. Does it apply to boys? I don't see any sex/gender distinction in the school rule. A boy's nipples can be highly visible in a tight shirt. Mine are right now. Has this been evenly enforced in the school?
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Old 27th September 2022, 10:34 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I'm waiting for an interview with the individual involved. I presume there are reports trying to talk to X but, so far, we have no idea what the motivation for the stunt exercise is.
Spitballing: teach had some comment made to them about not looking like a real woman or something, and pulled this as an in-your-face jab, not expecting international attention. Now they doesn't know quite what to do.
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Old 27th September 2022, 11:43 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As I said, nipples are real parts of human anatomy. I'm not so sure a piece of plastic or cloth can be extrapolated to being equivalent to a part of human physiology.
Deliberate obtuseness. Nipples real or simulated.
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Old 27th September 2022, 11:44 AM   #228
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Question Quick question

Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to argue that the school is correct not to discipline the shop teacher?

Perhaps carrying around ginormous breasts is a sort of "valid lived condition," much like BIID only in reverse.
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Old 27th September 2022, 11:57 AM   #229
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Not me.

Imagine that someone made a "naked suit" made of skintight spandex, in skin color, and with plastic nipples and fake pubic hair and maybe even fake plastic genitals. Without a close inspection, to all appearances the person wearing the suit appears to be completely naked. Would they get off on a technicality? Because their real body is covered by this naked suit? I don't think so.
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Old 27th September 2022, 11:58 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to argue that the school is correct not to discipline the shop teacher?

Perhaps carrying around ginormous breasts is a sort of "valid lived condition," much like BIID only in reverse.

Well, the school board, initially. But they now maybe seen as backpedaling a bit.
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:04 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Deliberate obtuseness. Nipples real or simulated.
You the author of the a school rule scooter? You know the intent?

I'd say the authors were concerned with girls showing their real nipples, and boys showing off their junk. I'd bet a dollar the authors never even considered fake physiology when writing the rule. You know different, do you?
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:18 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to argue that the school is correct not to discipline the shop teacher?
Sure. Based on my understanding of the relevant laws and regulations, disciplining the teacher would likely be illegal, or at least open the school administration up to costly and draining legal troubles.

But that is a separate question from the one implied here:
Quote:
Perhaps carrying around ginormous breasts is a sort of "valid lived condition," much like BIID only in reverse. : D
Which is, should we make it illegal for schools to discipline such behavior?

I'd be very interested to see the arguments in favor of that proposition, should anyone actually care to make them.
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:24 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Based on my understanding of the relevant laws and regulations, disciplining the teacher would likely be illegal, or at least open the school administration up to costly and draining legal troubles.
Okay, point taken. I've got two separate questions.

1) Is it actually illegal to discipline this teacher under Ontario law?

2) If so, is anyone (here at ISF) ready & willing to argue that this is a good law?
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:26 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You the author of the a school rule scooter? You know the intent?

I'd say the authors were concerned with girls showing their real nipples, and boys showing off their junk. I'd bet a dollar the authors never even considered fake physiology when writing the rule. You know different, do you?
They might have considered it indirectly. I'm sure displays of cartoon pornography are prohibited at the school. Some kid wanted to paste a picture of his favorite hentai waifu's physiologically fake hooters on his backpack, he'd be in the principal's office facing sanctions right quick.

And that might be the right framing for this, since the boobs in question are essentially 3D models of cartoon porn boobs.
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:33 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They might have considered it indirectly. I'm sure displays of cartoon pornography are prohibited at the school. Some kid wanted to paste a picture of his favorite hentai waifu's physiologically fake hooters on his backpack, he'd be in the principal's office facing sanctions right quick.

And that might be the right framing for this, since the boobs in question are essentially 3D models of cartoon porn boobs.
I'm sure they did, but likely have provisions for it under lewd/obscene displays, rather than under the dress code for showing nipples under discussion.

Eta: good point re: lewd display
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Old 27th September 2022, 12:49 PM   #236
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I suspect there's an anti-harm argument to be made about creating a sexualized, over-sexualized, or hypersexualized environment for children, and normalizing such sexualization in environments for children.

If TragicMonkey is willing to stipulate that exposing children to pornography is harmful, then that should address his harm argument.
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Old 27th September 2022, 03:32 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Not me.

Imagine that someone made a "naked suit" made of skintight spandex, in skin color, and with plastic nipples and fake pubic hair and maybe even fake plastic genitals. Without a close inspection, to all appearances the person wearing the suit appears to be completely naked. Would they get off on a technicality? Because their real body is covered by this naked suit? I don't think so.
Absolutely nailed.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I suspect there's an anti-harm argument to be made about creating a sexualized, over-sexualized, or hypersexualized environment for children, and normalizing such sexualization in environments for children.
I'm firmly in the camp of it doing no harm. It's distracting and absurd, but I believe only children who grew up in fundy homes and believe nakedness is sinful would feel they'd been harmed by it, and I don't give a **** about their opinion.

I know my youngest, who's the same age as the pupils in that class, would find it hysterically funny, but would in no way harmed.

I don't know whether anyone mentioned the H&S angle, but my wife, who is a heath & safety manager for a very large public company, believes it's highly unsafe. His vision and movement are restricted and the chances of the material covering the fake tits getting caught in moving machinery is dangerously high as well.
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Old 27th September 2022, 03:40 PM   #238
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As Guy Kawasaki said...

"If you have to put someone on a pedestal, put teachers. They are society's heroes."
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Old 27th September 2022, 03:41 PM   #239
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To be honest, having seen the pictures, I'm not even sure I'd call that pornographic. Even back when I was a 14 years old just discovering hormones, I'm pretty sure THAT body shape would have seemed more like grotesque than even remotely sexy.

And I mean, I don't even have to rely on hypotheticals. Last week when I had that look again at Phantasy Star Online 2, I ran past 2 different player characters who somehow had managed to create boobs larger than the rest of their torso. The only thing that passed my mind was "good grief, that looks awful".

But generally, while I don't fully agree with the "uncanny valley" idea, there are some parts it got right. There are things easier to accept in a cartoon than in (something that looks like) a real human. Just think if you met someone IRL looking like Homer Simpson, complete with elongated skull and giant round eyes that practically touch in the middle. Or some years ago, I saw a video of some people dancing while wearing oversized anime-style heads. Same head to body proportions, but it only looked disturbing in a RL context.

And I'd say the same goes for boobs or anything else.
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Old 27th September 2022, 03:45 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
As Guy Kawasaki said...

"If you have to put someone on a pedestal, put teachers. They are society's heroes."
Naw. Not even counting this one, I've seen too many jackasses and predators in the education system to grant the profession blanket sainthood.
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