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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 4th July 2019, 07:15 PM   #641
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No. You did a good job at addressing every one and she didn't offer anything credible in return. But she'll be repeating her nonsense within days...maybe sooner.
This is what PGP do; present the evidence and they just ignore it as if it never happened. Willful blindness runs rampant among them.
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Old 4th July 2019, 08:04 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Um....I do believe I presented exactly this earlier.
I missed it, sorry.
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Old 4th July 2019, 08:37 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
"Very strong robust" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


(Do you even actually know how many picograms of Sollecito's DNA were present on the tiny hook of that clasp (with not one picogram of his DNA on any other surrounding part of the clasp......)? Do you even know what a picogram is?)
The math has been explained to Vixen numerous times. Apparently she thinks the total quantity of DNA in a commingled sample determines whether a sample is LCN or not. There must be something in the expression "Meredith's DNA was six times that of Raffaele's in the sample" that confuses her.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:55 PM   #644
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A lot of thing confuse Vixen. Like facts.
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Old 4th July 2019, 11:02 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We can dream up an 'explanation' for everything.
You mean like Hellmann was bent by the mafia, the Supreme Court was fixed by the US State Department, the ECHR threw Knox a bone, etc etc?

Haha
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Old 4th July 2019, 11:06 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Stop deflecting, Vix. You claimed I "made all of that up" which I clearly did not. But you can't admit that, can you?

You cannot possibly know that knife never came into contact with any contamination so stop saying it didn't. Besides, no one here said the knife came into contact with MK's DNA.* It was to demonstrate how unprofessionally and carelessly evidence was handled. Or do you think putting the suspected murder weapon into an unsterile box previously used to hold calendars is the correct procedure for handling evidence?

*MK's DNA was never on the knife in the first place. Stefanoni screwed up.
In fact, in her measurement using the Qubit fluorometer, Stefanoni reported that there was no measurable DNA in the sample she collected from the knife blade. After finding no measurable DNA in the sample, Stefanoni used imprecisely documented and scientifically unverified and unvalidated methods of sample manipulation and concentration, apparently including a suction technique which could draw DNA contaminants into the DNA profile test sample.

The sample was obtained from a knife blade that showed no blood nor any human or animal tissue. Stefanoni alleged that she had collected the sample from a scratch relative close to the knife blade tip. No evidence of this scratch could could be obtained under micro-photography or other objective, scientific method, according to Stefanoni. No micro-photograph or other objective, scientific verification of the existence of this sample was ever provided by Stefanoni.

Stefanoni falsely claimed in her testimony before the Massei court that her laboratory had no contamination. However, DNA quantification results from several of her control samples provided to the defense definitively showed DNA contamination in her lab.

The DNA profile test sample was tested by Stefanoni using an unverified and unvalidated DNA profile test method, although the DNA quantification sample showed no measurable DNA. This knife blade sample was the only one of a number of samples that showed no measurable DNA that was tested for a DNA profile. Stefanoni claimed that the DNA profile obtained from this no-measurable-DNA sample matched Meredith Kercher's DNA.

The amount of DNA allegedly in this knife blade sample was present at an LCN level; however, Stefanoni's lab was not set up, in terms of contamination control, sample handling, profiling test procedures, and interpretative analysis, to conduct scientifically or forensically valid LCN DNA profile testing.

The above summary of the problems with Stefanoni's lab and the handling and DNA profile testing of the knife blade sample is sufficient to conclude that the alleged result, a claim that it produced a DNA profile that matches Meredith Kercher's DNA profile, is not credible.

There was no evidence presented that the alleged result could not be due to a contamination event; it is the obligation of the prosecution to demonstrate that their scientific results are credible and not, for example, the result of contamination. In fact, all the evidence suggests that the alleged result can only be from contamination or deliberate fabrication. In terms of Italian law, the alleged result is circumstantial evidence that is not serious, precise, and consistent. Thus, as circumstantial evidence, it cannot be used to infer a fact against the accused under Italian law, CPP Article 192, section 2.

Last edited by Numbers; 4th July 2019 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:41 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You really must keep up.


https://www.thespectrum.com/story/op...oma/338473002/


(Secondary and subsequent DNA transfer during criminal investigation,Ane Elida Fonneløp, Thore Ege, Peter Gill




Not according to Gill:







(Analysis and implications of the miscarriages of justice of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Peter Gill.
Forensic Science International: Genetics Volume 23, July 2016, Pages 9-18

Seems Prof. Gill does not agree with you. But why let that stop you from continuing to say otherwise?




From the evidence presented above, I'd give you that same advice.

Gill is just quoting the dishonest defence advocates Conti and Vecchiotti there. The case of quanary transfer certainly does not happen after six weeks. The DNA has to be fresh for it to 'stick'. Most comes form body fluids or hair follicles or skin with sweat glands. Once they have dried out they have dried out and won't be readily transferable.

Use your common sense.
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:43 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Stop deflecting, Vix. You claimed I "made all of that up" which I clearly did not. But you can't admit that, can you?

You cannot possibly know that knife never came into contact with any contamination so stop saying it didn't. Besides, no one here said the knife came into contact with MK's DNA.* It was to demonstrate how unprofessionally and carelessly evidence was handled. Or do you think putting the suspected murder weapon into an unsterile box previously used to hold calendars is the correct procedure for handling evidence?

*MK's DNA was never on the knife in the first place. Stefanoni screwed up.
Liar: there was a strong 15-allelle DNA imprint of Meredith Kercher on the blade, extracted from a striation.
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:49 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Originally found under the body but not collected or analyzed until 46 days later across the room and under a dirty rug among a pile of other things. Which. you. fail. to. mention. Talk about "lying by omission"!
If there was contamination, Raff's DNA wouldn't just be on the crook of the bra hook, it'd be on surrounding items.

If the DNA of Guede on the cuffs of the sweatshirt nearby are sound then so is the DNA of Raff on the bra clasp.

Can't see you getting into a rage about Rudy's DNA being found by neutral objective scientific methods and as witnessed in Raff's case by expert defence DNA forensic scientists, including the eminent Dr Torres. None of them complained about the cold scientific methods used to extract the information. The results appear on a print out and there is no way Stefanoni could have faked them nor would she as a police officer and respected biologist have any motive to do so, bearing in mind Raff is a fellow Italian, which proves her total impartiality in the case.
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:51 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That hook was forcefully pulled apart as evidenced by the shape of the hooks. So how did RS manage that without grasping the two sides of the back strap or the cloth the hoods were sewn to and pulling then apart? The PGP ignore that fact that no DNA of RS's was found anywhere else on the bra. Funny how Guede left his in a non-LCN amount.

Watch how the clasp is handled by Stefanoni and the others. They all hold it by the cloth and not the tiny hook, but we're supposed to believe that RS only touched the hook. PGP logic at its finest.
He had a knife.
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:55 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
The math has been explained to Vixen numerous times. Apparently she thinks the total quantity of DNA in a commingled sample determines whether a sample is LCN or not. There must be something in the expression "Meredith's DNA was six times that of Raffaele's in the sample" that confuses her.
Raff's DNA sample found was NOT LCN. It matched 17 of his alleles - BINGO! - a full house. In addition the RFU peaks were high.

The defence and C&V accepted it WAS Raff's DNA with a scientifically calculated probability that it was >3bn/one it was not.

You're in denial.
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:57 AM   #652
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Watch my lips: Raff's strong robustly sound DNA was found on the bra clasp. Let that sink in.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:53 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Watch my lips: Raff's strong robustly sound DNA was found on the bra clasp. Let that sink in.
You said tertiary DNA transfer does not happen. You have been proven wrong. Yet you bull forward unaffected.

That's what has sunk in.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:58 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Gill is just quoting the dishonest defence advocates Conti and Vecchiotti there. The case of quanary transfer certainly does not happen after six weeks. The DNA has to be fresh for it to 'stick'. Most comes form body fluids or hair follicles or skin with sweat glands. Once they have dried out they have dried out and won't be readily transferable.

Use your common sense.
Huh? There is not a sentence in this post which is true.

Much like your claim that tertiary DNA transfer does not happen.

We're in yet another cycle in this thread where you claim a howling falsehood, are proven wrong, and then simply double-down diverting to other howling falsehoods, never once offering a citation - except for the times you cite something that proves you wrong.

As TomG would say.... Hoots!
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:03 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Liar: there was a strong 15-allelle DNA imprint of Meredith Kercher on the blade, extracted from a striation.
..... a striation that no one saw, which Stefanoni claimed could only be seen by her. The knife still exists. No one else has seen what Stefanoni claimed.

BTW - guilter-nutters once posted a picture of that knife claiming it showed the striation. Then I posted the sentence in the Massei report which claimed that no pics of the striation were possible. Then guilter-nutters clicked out crickets.

It's not a good strategic ploy on your part to mention the non-existent striation.

Originally Posted by Massei p 225
(Stefanoni) stated that the other knives that were analysed were kept separate. She
reaffirmed that on the blade of knife Exhibit 36 a striation was visible but ‚placing
the exhibit under a source of illumination < like the conventional sort that has a
Reprovit, which is the instrument we use for photography; it was possible to observe
it only by placing it under a strong spotlight and by changing the angle at which the
light hit the blade, it was only in this way that these striations became visible to the
naked eye < photos were attempted but it was too reflective < only white spots of
light came out‛ (page 246).
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Old 5th July 2019, 08:23 AM   #656
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Here's information about the alleged DNA evidence on the bra clasp. DNA evidence is, by definition, circumstantial evidence. (All evidence that is not the direct testimony of someone's personal experience is circumstantial. Thus, all forensic test results are circumstantial evidence.) Again, it must be remembered that, under Italian law, CPP Article 192 section 2, in order to lawfully infer a fact from circumstantial evidence, that evidence must be serious, precise, and consistent.

However, the alleged DNA evidence from the bra clasp was not serious, precise, and consistent, and therefore no fact against the accused can be inferred from that evidence. The only facts that are clear regarding the bra clasp DNA evidence are that: 1) it was irredeemably compromised by the way the police neglected to collect the bra clasp at the proper time - immediately on their initial collection of evidence at the cottage, rather than 46 days later, with no chain of custody accounting for its disposition during that interval - and the forensically improper way it was handled during its collection; 2) the observed complex DNA profile allegedly obtained from the clasp by Stefanoni shows contamination consisting of the DNA of several unknown males as well as Meredith Kercher and 3) the observed complex DNA profile allegedly obtained from the clasp was from a second test; there was clear evidence in her records of a first test by Stefanoni the results of which were not reported.

The bra clasp was improperly stored in tubes containing an aqueous medium after Stefanoni tested it, thereby destroying the integrity of any DNA sequences on it, so no retest of the clasp was possible. The clasps were rusted by the aqueous medium. The correct storage to preserve the DNA would be under absolutely dry conditions, preferably frozen. This failure to carefully preserve this alleged critical evidence suggests intent by Stefanoni or other authorities to prevent retesting.

Here are some excerpts from www.amandaknoxcase. com about the bra clasp.

"The famous bra clasp was photographed on the floor of Meredith Kercher’s room on November 2nd, 2007 but collected as evidence on December 18th. It was unaccounted for and “missing in action” for 46 days, a period in which the crime scene (indeed the whole flat) was turned upside-down during undocumented inspections, so much so that it was recovered four or five feet away from where it was originally photographed.

The Y-haplotype testing for the bra clasp showed peaks belonging to at least three unknown male profiles, besides the one attributed to Raffaele Sollecito, a clear indication of contamination.

The prosecutions objection to contamination is the lack of a source of Raffaele Sollecito’s DNA in the flat (except on a cigarette butt), but the same can be said for the three unknown male profiles, which are nevertheless on the bra clasp.

The problem is that an accurate mapping of every possible source of DNA in the flat wasn’t done, otherwise there would be multiple occurrences of two unknown female profiles corresponding to Laura Mezzetti and Filomena Romanelli.

The bra clasp moreover couldn’t be further tested by the independent experts, Professors Conti and Vecchiotti, because it was either intentionally destroyed at worst or stored incorrectly due to incompetence by prosecution expert, Patrizia Stefanoni, who allowed the hooks to rust from storing it in extraction buffer. See Evidence Destroyed for photos. In other words, the key piece of evidence against Raffaele Sollecito was rendered useless."

Regarding the handling of the clasps, it should be pointed out that the police, during the collection of the bra clasp, did indeed touch the clasps directly with dirty gloves. This is shown in a photo supplied by the police on the amandaknoxcase site.
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Old 5th July 2019, 08:31 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If there was contamination, Raff's DNA wouldn't just be on the crook of the bra hook, it'd be on surrounding items.

What? Have you just entirely made this up to suit your own ends. What arrant nonsense.



Quote:

If the DNA of Guede on the cuffs of the sweatshirt nearby are sound then so is the DNA of Raff on the bra clasp.

Yeah. Go and find out how many picograms (micrograms actually) of Guede's DNA were found on the sweatshirt cuff. Then compare with the number of picograms of Sollecito's DNA found on the hook of the bra clasp. Then have a think about the relative numbers. Then get back to us....



Quote:
Can't see you getting into a rage about Rudy's DNA being found by neutral objective scientific methods and as witnessed in Raff's case by expert defence DNA forensic scientists, including the eminent Dr Torres. None of them complained about the cold scientific methods used to extract the information. The results appear on a print out and there is no way Stefanoni could have faked them nor would she as a police officer and respected biologist have any motive to do so, bearing in mind Raff is a fellow Italian, which proves her total impartiality in the case.

See above about trying to comprehend the difference in quantities. And at the same time, perhaps try to receive some education in low-tempate DNA analysis - paying particular attention to the extreme care needed in handling, storing and analysing objects for those minuscule levels of DNA. Then once you've done that, try taking an objective look at Stefanoni's lab, and try to ask yourself how many of the critically-required processes and protocols she employed when coming up with these low-template-level "results".

And perhaps the penny might eventually drop (although in fact I doubt it somehow...)


Oh and nice work with yet another strawman about Stefanoni "faking" results. Nobody is suggesting that Stefanoni invented these results to frame people - and if you think that's what people are suggesting, then in turn I would suggest reading for comprehension.

Rather, people are suggesting (well, more than suggesting) that Stefanoni simply didn't know what she was doing when it came to low-template DNA analysis, that she ran a horribly sloppy operation from top to bottom (including shocking errors in crime scene evidence collection, massive mistakes in the handling and storage of evidentiary items, and a lab that was in no way whatsoever capable of conducting reliable low-template DNA analysis.

And people are also suggesting that Stefanoni didn't even know the shortcomings or limitations of her work on this case, but instead resorted to dissembling and obfuscation in order to try to defend the (non-existent) credibility and reliability of her "results" from the knife and the bra clasp.

Carry on
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Old 5th July 2019, 08:35 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Watch my lips: Raff's strong robustly sound DNA was found on the bra clasp. Let that sink in.

Well, what's sinking in is your utterly absurd repetition of the descriptor "strong robustly sound" (which doesn't even make sense, by the way....) for the quantity of Sollecito's DNA on the hook of the bra clasp.

Again, please go and find out how many picograms of Sollecito's DNA were on that hook. And then please try to learn what a picogram actually is, and what the number of picograms of Sollecito's DNA actually means in the context of DNA analysis. And then realise how laughably nonsensical your description "strong robustly sound" actually is.

As you were......
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Old 5th July 2019, 08:42 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raff's DNA sample found was NOT LCN. It matched 17 of his alleles - BINGO! - a full house. In addition the RFU peaks were high.

The defence and C&V accepted it WAS Raff's DNA with a scientifically calculated probability that it was >3bn/one it was not.

You're in denial.


You still don't understand.

The issue around the bra clasp is one of contamination. As you say, it's accepted that it's Sollecito's DNA. But it's also accepted that it's comingled with the DNA of at least two other (unknown) males. How did the DNA of those males get onto that tiny clasp, Vixen? Was there a hoard of additional men all clawing at Kercher's bra? Or...... now think carefully at this point..... could there *possibly* have been a contamination scenario where tiny quantities of multiple people's DNA (including Sollecito's) found their way onto the bra clasp as it was almost-literally kicked around the dirty floor of Kercher's room and then swept under a rug amidst a pile of dust and other debris?

Because if you cannot bring yourself to understand or accept the contamination likelihood, then you find yourself in the awkward position of explaining how that other male DNA found its way onto the bra clasp. Or are you so far overinvested that you are prepared to claim that those other males' DNA got there by contamination, but that Sollecito's alone got there through primary transfer when he touched Kercher's bra?

I can only see one person in these threads who's in denial. And it's not the one you think it is.
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:17 AM   #660
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One other point, probably mentioned in earlier posts, is that hook-and-eye closures, such as the bra clasp, are not opened or closed by grabbing the hooks or the eyes. Generally, one holds in each hand, respectively, the fabric on either side of the hooks and eyes and pulls the fabric to free the hooks from the eyes or to insert the hooks into the eyes.

In analogy, some men's trousers (pants to us in the US) have a flat hook and flat eye for closure on either side of the top of the fly. Closing and opening is accomplished by pulling the fabric on either side of the fly, and not by holding either the hook or eye.
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:23 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Because if you cannot bring yourself to understand or accept the contamination likelihood, then you find yourself in the awkward position of explaining how that other male DNA found its way onto the bra clasp. Or are you so far overinvested that you are prepared to claim that those other males' DNA got there by contamination, but that Sollecito's alone got there through primary transfer when he touched Kercher's bra?

I can only see one person in these threads who's in denial. And it's not the one you think it is.
The 2014 convicting Nencini court had a nifty explanation for those two extra male DNA samples. They belonged to two of the victim's girlfriends! The assumption was that women regularly handle each others' bras!

Casual readers here can make up their own minds as to the fairness of Nencini's conviction. Here's the relevant section of his report in Italian......

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Old 5th July 2019, 09:34 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raff's DNA sample found was NOT LCN. It matched 17 of his alleles - BINGO! - a full house. In addition the RFU peaks were high.

The defence and C&V accepted it WAS Raff's DNA with a scientifically calculated probability that it was >3bn/one it was not.

You're in denial.
As I suspected. You have no idea what the meaning of Low Copy Number is.

When you take the total quantity of the sample and you divide that by 7 (6 parts Meredith, 1 part Raffaele) the quotient is the quantity of Raffaele's DNA. Stefanoni couldn't provide the quantity of the sample during her testimony but agreed it was 'probably' 1 nanogram. That means the quantity of Raffaele's DNA in that sample was 1ng / 7 = 140 pg, which qualifies as LCN. This isn't calculus, Vixen.

Also not mentioned here is that normal DNA profiling requires a minimum of two amplification cycles and matching results before a result can be considered reliable. Sample 165B was amplified only once. When asked why she only amplified it once she replied "Because I didn’t think it was useful to repeat it." THAT is YOUR expert, Vixen. Embarrassing, it's it. Stefanoni knows better than the entire DNA scientific community that sets the standards and requirements that Stefanoni supposedly adhered to. At least the techs from RIS were honest enough to testify a minimum of two cycles was required, more for LCN profiling.

BTW, we all understand how DNA probability works, but we also know it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:43 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You still don't understand.

The issue around the bra clasp is one of contamination. As you say, it's accepted that it's Sollecito's DNA. But it's also accepted that it's comingled with the DNA of at least two other (unknown) males. How did the DNA of those males get onto that tiny clasp, Vixen? Was there a hoard of additional men all clawing at Kercher's bra? Or...... now think carefully at this point..... could there *possibly* have been a contamination scenario where tiny quantities of multiple people's DNA (including Sollecito's) found their way onto the bra clasp as it was almost-literally kicked around the dirty floor of Kercher's room and then swept under a rug amidst a pile of dust and other debris?

Because if you cannot bring yourself to understand or accept the contamination likelihood, then you find yourself in the awkward position of explaining how that other male DNA found its way onto the bra clasp. Or are you so far overinvested that you are prepared to claim that those other males' DNA got there by contamination, but that Sollecito's alone got there through primary transfer when he touched Kercher's bra?

I can only see one person in these threads who's in denial. And it's not the one you think it is.
I'm also interested in how Raffaele's DNA, if directly deposited during the commission of the crime, would wind up being one sixth that of Meredith's. In the normal operation and wearing of a bra, the user doesn't come in contact with the metal hook. If Raffaele deposited his DNA during the crime, he likely would have had excessive perspiration, and that would mean he would have had an increase in the amount of DNA he would leave behind. Yet, he supposedly touched the hook directly and only left a faint (1/6 of Meredith) trace. That defies common sense, but maybe that's why it works for Vixen?
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:46 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raff's DNA sample found was NOT LCN. It matched 17 of his alleles - BINGO! - a full house. In addition the RFU peaks were high.
Those first two sentences do not relate to each other. It's like saying that the holes in the wall must have been made by a revolver, rather than a pistol.....

Because the holes were round and there were six of them.

DNA stuff is a huge learning curve for me, so I tend to understand your complete ignorance of the forensic side of it. Yet I once had the pleasure to have dinner with a gent who owned a DNA testing lab in the USA, and because of that took an interest in this case.

He said what had impressed him about Stefanoni was that if she had ever worked for him, he'd have immediately fired her, for fear of lawsuits stemming from her blunders, blunders that the courts embraced.... at least until Conti-Vecchiotti, who he said had done solid work.

He then told me to listen, I might learn something. It was the first time I'd ever heard of Dr Gill. Or that tertiary contamination is common in forensics, **even when** protocols are scrupulously followed.

Hey Vixen, join me in this - listen and learn.
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Last edited by Bill Williams; 5th July 2019 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:24 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The 2014 convicting Nencini court had a nifty explanation for those two extra male DNA samples. They belonged to two of the victim's girlfriends! The assumption was that women regularly handle each others' bras!

Casual readers here can make up their own minds as to the fairness of Nencini's conviction. Here's the relevant section of his report in Italian......

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f07c3dedc.jpg
As requested, an English translation of Nencini's reasoning for discounting the two other male-DNA profiles.....
Quote:
.... just as it is reasonable to believe that there might have been DNA deposited by some girlfriend who had had the opportunity to touch the hook of the garment.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:27 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Gill is just quoting the dishonest defence advocates Conti and Vecchiotti there. The case of quanary transfer certainly does not happen after six weeks. The DNA has to be fresh for it to 'stick'. Most comes form body fluids or hair follicles or skin with sweat glands. Once they have dried out they have dried out and won't be readily transferable.

Use your common sense.
"Gill is just quoting the dishonest defence advocates Conti and Vecchiotti there."

Hmmm....now just what was it you said earlier? Oh, yes...something about dreaming up an 'explanation' for everything.

Prof. Gill was perfectly capable of examining Stefanoni's records concerning her testing of the DNA and coming to his own conclusions. Unlike you, he is not some amateur who only thinks he understands DNA testing and pontificates on it from a soapbox of ignorance and bias. Comparing the professional experience and knowledge of Stefanoni to Gill is like comparing a middle school science teacher to a professor of physics at MIT.

That you, a 'chartered accountant' think contamination of the bra hook could not have occurred is in direct contradiction to the opinions of actual DNA forensic experts. Who are we to believe?
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:57 AM   #667
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That you, a 'chartered accountant' think contamination of the bra hook could not have occurred is in direct contradiction to the opinions of actual DNA forensic experts. Who are we to believe?
Me? I believe Vixen.

I mean she's repeated baseless, citationless factoids dozens of times, claims contrary to what experts say.

Repeat these factoids eleven times, and I'm skeptical. However on the twelfth time it's claimed, I'm sold. Eleven times claimed, we have a right to withhold belief.....

.... but the twelfth time!? No one would cross that threshold unless they knew something I didn't.

So I am hereby changing sides.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:07 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He had a knife.
If Sollecito used the knife without holding the bra then how did his DNA get on the hook? If he did hold the bra, then why isn't his DNA anywhere on it besides that tiny hook? Or do you think he held the bra only by that tiny hook while he cut off the closure?

Face it, Guede cut off that bra which is why his, using a term you like, 'strong robustly sound DNA' is found on its strap. Clue: Guede held the bra strap as he cut it.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:13 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
As requested, an English translation of Nencini's reasoning for discounting the two other male-DNA profiles.....

Quote:
.... just as it is reasonable to believe that there might have been DNA deposited by some girlfriend who had had the opportunity to touch the hook of the garment.
That's a perfectly sound explanation. My girlfriends and I wear each other's bras all the time. It's amazing how we all wear the same band and cup sizes! I also have my girlfriends unhook my bra for me a lot, too.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:18 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That's a perfectly sound explanation. My girlfriends and I wear each other's bras all the time. It's amazing how we all wear the same band and cup sizes! I also have my girlfriends unhook my bra for me a lot, too.
TMI!!
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:27 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Watch my lips: Raff's strong robustly sound DNA was found on the bra clasp. Let that sink in.
And the prosecution failed to get a conviction anyway. Let that sink in.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:33 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Liar: there was a strong 15-allelle DNA imprint of Meredith Kercher on the blade, extracted from a striation.
Wow...it must have been very strong to survive a thorough bleach cleaning which removed every trace of blood from the knife! Even the impossible to scrub protected area where the blade attached to the handle was completely clean of blood.

But you'll just ignore that bit o' fact per usual.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:10 PM   #673
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Knox is the only murder case I'm aware of where the people who think the defendants were wrongfully acquitted don't harbor any blame towards the prosecution for any obvious mistakes. Surely not a sign of rabid fanaticism though.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:16 PM   #674
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The police and prosecution made no mistakes, didn't miss any obvious issues, and couldn't have done much more - Vixen in 2019 after three acquittals, and an international court ruling.

Very reasonable I'm sure.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:41 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
....
Oh and nice work with yet another strawman about Stefanoni "faking" results. Nobody is suggesting that Stefanoni invented these results to frame people - and if you think that's what people are suggesting, then in turn I would suggest reading for comprehension.

Rather, people are suggesting (well, more than suggesting) that Stefanoni simply didn't know what she was doing when it came to low-template DNA analysis, that she ran a horribly sloppy operation from top to bottom (including shocking errors in crime scene evidence collection, massive mistakes in the handling and storage of evidentiary items, and a lab that was in no way whatsoever capable of conducting reliable low-template DNA analysis.

And people are also suggesting that Stefanoni didn't even know the shortcomings or limitations of her work on this case, but instead resorted to dissembling and obfuscation in order to try to defend the (non-existent) credibility and reliability of her "results" from the knife and the bra clasp.

Carry on
One can't be certain how much of Stefanoni's botched efforts in sample handling, sample preparation, DNA profile testing, and DNA profile data interpretation for the knife and bra clasp were due to incompetence and how much were due to intentional misconduct disguised as incompetence.

If Stefanoni had been found to have conducted intentional misconduct, she might have been accused of a violation of Italian criminal law, for example, the law against knowingly making false statements in an official document, such as a report from the scientific police.

On the other hand, if she could demonstrate her errors in sample handling, sample preparation, DNA profile testing, and DNA profile data interpretation were the result of incompetence, she would have a clear defense against any potential criminal charge. Of course, demonstrating incompetence might have some negative effect on one's career, even in Italy, but from what we have seen in this case, the negative effects for apparently incompetent authorities are small to undetectable.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:09 PM   #676
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"...but from what we have seen in this case, the negative effects for apparently incompetent authorities are small to undetectable."

Hell, they get medals and a promotion for it!
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:17 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This is what PGP do; present the evidence and they just ignore it as if it never happened. Willful blindness runs rampant among them.

We know that. I just don't see the point in trying to refute them any more. Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted. Nutsos will always be nutsos.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:22 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wow...it must have been very strong to survive a thorough bleach cleaning which removed every trace of blood from the knife! Even the impossible to scrub protected area where the blade attached to the handle was completely clean of blood.

But you'll just ignore that bit o' fact per usual.
There must be a term for someone to have this all laid out for them and yet somehow their brain just bounces all around it without ever making contact.

Blood is more durable than DNA. Bleach cleans both, but it takes more effort to get rid of blood. The "striation" Stefanoni claimed contained this DNA was supposedly 2/3 of the way out to the tip of the blade (based on the location of where sample 36B was collected). This striation must be incredibly fine (read; shallow) since not even Stefanoni, when asked to identify it, could locate it. Metal is not porous, meaning DNA couldn't possibly be absorbed into it and avoid a casual washing. Now, I'm not sure about everyone else, but when I wash a knife blade I take either a soapy sponge or a wash cloth, grasp the blade (sharp edge facing away, obviously) and pull the blade through. This basic (common?) approach to cleaning a knife would make the location of 36B the central point of the cleaning. And if we believe the prosecution, which claims the kitchen smelled of bleach (never mind they smelled this several days later...) and the knife appeared unusually clean, this would suggest a prodigious scrubbing of the blade, right where 36B was collected, using bleach. And and and and YET! (I hope I'm more convincing than the stuttering lawyer in My Cousin Vinny) this incredibly durable DNA managed to hide out in this invisible striation, located at the easiest point of the blade to clean, and avoid being destroyed - a feat even the much more durable blood (or more of Meredith's incredibly durable DNA) couldn't do, even in the most difficult locations on a knife to clean.

OK, so maybe I'm being a bit over-the-top for effect, but the basic premise, I believe, is spot on. And yet Vixen would look at this and her only response would be "...a robust profile of Meredith was obtained..." without giving a moment's pause to the absurdity of believing DNA was actually there. How do you deal with something/someone like that?
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Old 5th July 2019, 03:52 PM   #679
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
There must be a term for someone to have this all laid out for them and yet somehow their brain just bounces all around it without ever making contact.

Blood is more durable than DNA. Bleach cleans both, but it takes more effort to get rid of blood. The "striation" Stefanoni claimed contained this DNA was supposedly 2/3 of the way out to the tip of the blade (based on the location of where sample 36B was collected). This striation must be incredibly fine (read; shallow) since not even Stefanoni, when asked to identify it, could locate it.
Which bothers you more? That Stefanoni offered this as "a dog ate my homework" excuse for it, or that the Massei court used this as one of the main reasons for convicting in 2009?

This is before considering that (also to convict) the Massei court had had to invent out of whole cloth a reason for Knox to have been out and about with that knife, for some innocent reason - since Massei also wrote that the conviction was based on a nonpremeditated act?

Imaging sitting in prison - either Knox or Sollecito - and being told the "judicial truth" about this knife?
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:12 PM   #680
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Quote:
There must be a term for someone to have this all laid out for them and yet somehow their brain just bounces all around it without ever making contact.
TJMK poster?
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