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Old 9th August 2019, 04:02 AM   #441
abaddon
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I've explained this before. I would like the Irish border to look exactly the same post-Brexit as it does now.
Great. So all those dirty brown people can walk across it into the UK without any checks.
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If the Irish or the EU insist on modifying the border though, that's up to them - and they will have to pay for the work.
Except neither are insisting on modifying the border. The UK is.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:06 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That means anyone from the EU can enter the UK without passing any UK customs or checks. You are really happy with EU citizens having an unchallenged access to the UK?
It's even funnier. Those would be migrants departing the EU. Why would we care where they go after they have left? They have left and are no longer our problem.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:25 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Great. So all those dirty brown people can walk across it into the UK without any checks. Except neither are insisting on modifying the border. The UK is.
No. Boris has promised not to install infrastructure at the border, under any circumstances.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190730...ackstop-brexit

Quote:
"He said that in all scenarios, the government will be steadfast in its commitment to the Belfast Agreement and will never put physical checks or physical infrastructure on the border," the spokeswoman added.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:26 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. Boris has promised not to install infrastructure at the border, under any circumstances.
So he's going to take back control of our borders by not taking back control of our only actual border?

Dave
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:27 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. Boris has promised not to install infrastructure at the border, under any circumstances.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190730...ackstop-brexit
You seem to be avoiding the question.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:35 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That means anyone from the EU can enter the UK without passing any UK customs or checks. You are really happy with EU citizens having an unchallenged access to the UK?
Or indeed people from outside the EU allowed in could pass into the UK.
Oh the horror, the horror.
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Old 9th August 2019, 04:54 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to be avoiding the question.
Which question?
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:01 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That means anyone from the EU can enter the UK without passing any UK customs or checks. You are really happy with EU citizens having an unchallenged access to the UK?
Plus anything.

Plus it's not just the EU, it's from anywhere (WTO rules).

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Old 9th August 2019, 05:10 AM   #449
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It's negotiation through apathy. The UK is trying to wash its hands of the border issue by simply not concerning itself with it. They're probably thinking that even the worst case border scenario won't harm the UK much, and that the EU will have to deal with most of the fallout. Maybe that's the case, I don't know? (I think Northern Ireland would definitely be screwed, but I guess no one cares about them).
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:14 AM   #450
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Well, there all those refugees currently being kept detained in France and Belgium at the UK's request.
I guess they would all enjoy a stroll in the Irish countryside.
And hey, if they then happen to go into a different country, not the EU's problem right?
If the UK wants to stop that happening, it's up to them to pay for it.
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:18 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Well, there all those refugees currently being kept detained in France and Belgium at the UK's request.
I guess they would all enjoy a stroll in the Irish countryside.
And hey, if they then happen to go into a different country, not the EU's problem right?
If the UK wants to stop that happening, it's up to them to pay for it.
The UK would find a way to blame the EU generally, and in this case Ireland specifically. If EU nationals/residents walk across the border into Northern Ireland then it's Ireland's fault for allowing that kind of people into Ireland.
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:21 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So he's going to take back control of our borders by not taking back control of our only actual border?

Dave

I seem to remember a couple of years ago, possibly while he was Foreign Secretary, Boris saying that the Northern Ireland border wasn’t an important issue (I think the actual phrase he used was something like “not a biggie”) because at the moment not much of our trade passes across it. I may be mistaken, though, because I can’t find any actual mention of it now.
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:21 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The UK would find a way to blame the EU generally, and in this case Ireland specifically. If EU nationals/residents walk across the border into Northern Ireland then it's Ireland's fault for allowing that kind of people into Ireland.
Or the EU's fault for not setting up the hard border that the UK couldn't be arsed to sort out the problems with setting up itself. It seems that the fundamental motivating factors behind Brexit are that everything should be somebody else's problem and that everything is somebody else's fault.

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Old 9th August 2019, 05:23 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So he's going to take back control of our borders by not taking back control of our only actual border?

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It's the notion that counts...
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:24 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's the notion that counts...
Well, with Boris, it's definitely not the nation that counts.

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Old 9th August 2019, 05:33 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. Boris has promised not to install infrastructure at the border, under any circumstances.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190730...ackstop-brexit
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it. That does make all the difference, because if there is one thing you can take to the bank it's that Boris is a man of his word.
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:42 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it. That does make all the difference, because if there is one thing you can take to the bank it's that Boris is a man of his word.
But ceptimus has already said he does not mind if everything Boris claims is a lie, after all, then he should not have believed him in the first place, as all politicians lie anyway.
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Old 9th August 2019, 06:14 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Which question?
That you are happy if there is no deal or a deal with having anyone legally allowed in the EU travelling to the UK without going through any UK customs.
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Old 9th August 2019, 06:24 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That you are happy if there is no deal or a deal with having anyone legally allowed in the EU travelling to the UK without going through any UK customs.
I wrote my thoughts on this many times in previous episodes of this thread. I think that it's more important to keep the Northern Ireland border open than it is to prevent illegal immigrants crossing.

Most illegal immigrants that attempt to stay for long in the UK can be found by checks on housing, employment, bank accounts, spending records unless they use cash, records of who owns vehicles passing any number-plate recognition cameras and such.

Some illegal immigrants (more than the authorities admit) sneak in already on small boats, hidden in lorries, trains, cars, and by other means - so we need methods to detect them other than when they're crossing borders anyway.

The UK will continue to allow tourists from the EU to visit in any case - it's only if they stay too long or try to live or work here without permission that they'll need to be detained and expelled.
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Old 9th August 2019, 06:43 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I wrote my thoughts on this many times in previous episodes of this thread. I think that it's more important to keep the Northern Ireland border open than it is to prevent illegal immigrants crossing.

Most illegal immigrants that attempt to stay for long in the UK can be found by checks on housing, employment, bank accounts, spending records unless they use cash, records of who owns vehicles passing any number-plate recognition cameras and such.

Some illegal immigrants (more than the authorities admit) sneak in already on small boats, hidden in lorries, trains, cars, and by other means - so we need methods to detect them other than when they're crossing borders anyway.

The UK will continue to allow tourists from the EU to visit in any case - it's only if they stay too long or try to live or work here without permission that they'll need to be detained and expelled.
What about the economic impacts of easy smuggling?
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Old 9th August 2019, 06:54 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I wrote my thoughts on this many times in previous episodes of this thread. I think that it's more important to keep the Northern Ireland border open than it is to prevent illegal immigrants crossing.

Most illegal immigrants that attempt to stay for long in the UK can be found by checks on housing, employment, bank accounts, spending records unless they use cash, records of who owns vehicles passing any number-plate recognition cameras and such.

Some illegal immigrants (more than the authorities admit) sneak in already on small boats, hidden in lorries, trains, cars, and by other means - so we need methods to detect them other than when they're crossing borders anyway.

The UK will continue to allow tourists from the EU to visit in any case - it's only if they stay too long or try to live or work here without permission that they'll need to be detained and expelled.
So you are happy for anyone in the world who can make it to Ireland to enter the UK unchecked? How many terrorist attacks would it take to change your mind on that one?

what about people transiting in Ireland to the UK? leave them all unchecked?
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:00 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
What about the economic impacts of easy smuggling?
What about it? It already happens across the Irish border. There are different VAT rates on either side of the border and different duties on alcohol, tobacco, fuel and so on. Also, of course, different currencies.

Where the trading authorities discover smugglers working on a large scale, they go after them and stop them. For ordinary people crossing the border with small amounts of shopping in their cars, it's not worth the effort to detect and stop them. This applies at most land borders around the world - there's nothing particularly unusual about Ireland.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:08 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What about it? It already happens across the Irish border. There are different VAT rates on either side of the border and different duties on alcohol, tobacco, fuel and so on. Also, of course, different currencies.

Where the trading authorities discover smugglers working on a large scale, they go after them and stop them. For ordinary people crossing the border with small amounts of shopping in their cars, it's not worth the effort to detect and stop them. This applies at most land borders around the world - there's nothing particularly unusual about Ireland.
So no customs limits for travellers?

And Ireland should accept all this why?
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:09 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What about it? It already happens across the Irish border. There are different VAT rates on either side of the border and different duties on alcohol, tobacco, fuel and so on. Also, of course, different currencies.

Where the trading authorities discover smugglers working on a large scale, they go after them and stop them. For ordinary people crossing the border with small amounts of shopping in their cars, it's not worth the effort to detect and stop them. This applies at most land borders around the world - there's nothing particularly unusual about Ireland.
The difference in the VAT rates are currently minimal so there is no money to be made smuggling. Post brexit the difference in the VAT rate will be 1/6 of the goods value. Similarly at the moment there is no duty to be paid on goods going into Ireland from the UK or vice versa. Post brexit there will be a charge up to 40% on top of the value of goods.

You appear to totally fail to understand that leaving the EU means we lose all our privileges and advantages. Why am I shocked!

Edited to say, a quick check shows that EU tariffs go up to 75% not 40% as above. WTO tariffs go up to 80%.

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Old 9th August 2019, 07:09 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
So no customs limits for travellers?

And Ireland should accept all this why?
If Ireland doesn't want to accept it, they can choose to erect border posts if they wish. They'll pay for them, of course.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:10 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Well, there all those refugees currently being kept detained in France and Belgium at the UK's request.
I guess they would all enjoy a stroll in the Irish countryside.
Ireland is not in Schengen, so they would find it difficult to get into Ireland.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:13 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Post brexit there will be a charge up to 40% on top of the value of goods.
Which direction(s) of travel will incur these 40% charges and why?
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:18 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Which direction(s) of travel will incur these 40% charges and why?
Both unless we waive tariffs from imports from all countries (which would make negotiating trade deals hard given we would be already allow any country to send any of their goods here tariff free. As for why because of the UCC.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:22 AM   #469
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WTO rules.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:10 AM   #470
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Tariff imposition wouldn't affect smugglers though.

Say the EU wants to slap a 40% tariff on lamb being imported to the EU: unless lamb is actually selling at a much higher price in the EU than the UK (which it won't be) then that is no incentive for smugglers.

Last edited by ceptimus; 9th August 2019 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:14 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Tariff imposition wouldn't affect smugglers though.

Say the EU wants to slap a 40% tariff on lamb being imported to the EU: unless lamb is actually selling at a 40% higher price in the EU than the UK (which it won't be) then that is no incentive for smugglers.
I don't think you understand......

If the EU slaps a 40% tariff on lamb then it'll always be worthwhile to smuggle lamb so long as the UK price of production plus smuggling costs makes it cheaper than importing it legally.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:17 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Tariff imposition wouldn't affect smugglers though.


Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Say the EU wants to slap a 40% tariff on lamb being imported to the EU: unless lamb is actually selling at a much higher price in the EU than the UK (which it won't be) then that is no incentive for smugglers.
Suppose the UK wants to impose a 40% tax on [commodity] being imported to the UK. Smugglers can then sell the stuff at a 30% profit margin and still undercut legally imported [commodity] in the UK market, because the UK price is effectively the retail price in the EU plus transport price plus 40%. And this is "taking control of our borders."

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Old 9th August 2019, 08:23 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Tariff imposition wouldn't affect smugglers though.
Exactly that is why it is attractive!

Quote:
Say the EU wants to slap a 40% tariff on lamb being imported to the EU: unless lamb is actually selling at a much higher price in the EU than the UK (which it won't be) then that is no incentive for smugglers.
Currently we export a lot of lamb to the EU. Say the EU slaps on a 40% tariff then someone in the EU will pay for British lamb the current price plus 40%.
Not many will pay that despite our lamb being great. That means in the EU there is now more people wanting lamb than is available so the price of lamb in the EU will go up. Similarly there will be too much lamb in the Uk so the price here will go down. The EU can then buy their expensive lamb our our cheap lamb with 40% added. Do you ready not see an incentive for a smuggler to get cheap UK lamb into the EU without paying the 40% tariff?
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:32 AM   #474
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With no trade deal tariffs will default to WTO for both imports and exports.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:44 AM   #475
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It's not the tariff level that the smugglers are concerned about - only the profits they can make by smuggling.

I doubt if any of you believe that lamb prices across the rest of Europe will rise 40% as a result of Brexit - so you must think that lamb prices in the UK are going to fall by the same amount.

If you're claiming that our UK food prices will fall that much, then that is yet another good reason for leaving the EU. I look forward to being able to buy my lamb and other food items up to 40% cheaper than I can right now!
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:48 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's not the tariff level that the smugglers are concerned about - only the profits they can make by smuggling.

I doubt if any of you believe that lamb prices across the rest of Europe will rise 40% as a result of Brexit - so you must think that lamb prices in the UK are going to fall by the same amount.

If you're claiming that our UK food prices will fall that much, then that is yet another good reason for leaving the EU. I look forward to being able to buy my lamb and other food items up to 40% cheaper than I can right now!
#facepalm
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:48 AM   #477
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If, on the other hand, you're claiming that food prices will be 40% higher in the UK than the EU, then I say good luck to the smugglers. I will happily buy cheap EU food that's been smuggled into the UK. I will be confident that food meets EU standards.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:49 AM   #478
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Following a no deal Brexit you will indeed be able to buy cheap lamb - right up until it's all gone and the farmers have all gone bust. Then you'll find yourself paying a hell of a lot more.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:54 AM   #479
GlennB
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's not the tariff level that the smugglers are concerned about - only the profits they can make by smuggling.

I doubt if any of you believe that lamb prices across the rest of Europe will rise 40% as a result of Brexit - so you must think that lamb prices in the UK are going to fall by the same amount.

If you're claiming that our UK food prices will fall that much, then that is yet another good reason for leaving the EU. I look forward to being able to buy my lamb and other food items up to 40% cheaper than I can right now!
#bangingheadondesk
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:55 AM   #480
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Following a no deal Brexit you will indeed be able to buy cheap lamb - right up until it's all gone and the farmers have all gone bust. Then you'll find yourself paying a hell of a lot more.

The posters here think that the UK lamb industry will be kept alive by all the smugglers wishing to sneak it across the Irish border to EU citizens who wish to buy it without paying an extra 40% EU tax.
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