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Old 14th August 2019, 02:05 PM   #641
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's almost like the word collaborator was never used by anyone, in any other context than when referring to Nazis.

Remoaners sure are getting desperate now - a good example being Green MP Caroline Lucas's recent sexist and non-inclusive article - if you really want to criticize an MP for saying or writing offensive stuff about Brexit, then you should begin with her.
Oh please. Positioning an entity (be it a person or a collective body) as the enemy and then suggesting a political opponent is "collaborating" with it is not something that requires mystical omen reading to deconstruct.

It is an insidious ploy because it doesn't just have the result of smearing the opponent, it plants seeds in people's minds about being able to trust each other. It's one whiff away from saying "there are traitors among us!"

It follows hand-in-hand with numerous direct accusations about Remain bureaucrats "sabotaging" the Brexit process as the preemptive groundwork for why it's all about to go bonkers.

ETA: also, nice touch making your brief rebuttal and then pulling a "oh yeah, whatabout..."
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Old 14th August 2019, 02:15 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Dunno, a quick Google search indicates that that's the current usage.

It doesn't count as offensive when its being spouted by a Remainer.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8998076.html



Quote:

[Heidi Allen] said Unite for Remain would prioritise “modern, country-first, cross-party collaboration across the nation”
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Old 14th August 2019, 02:30 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It’s essentially the same thing as receivership in in US bankruptcy proceedings.
We used to have 'in Receivership' in the UK which was slightly different from 'in Administration'. I no longer have my notes and can't remember what the difference was. Probably to do with who was appointed.

ETA. Ah, here we go:

Quote:
Receivership differs from Administration, as the latter works to protect companies from their creditors. Whereas, Receivership is initiated by those creditors or banks that believe the business cannot pay its debts. Unlike in administration, directors cannot place their own company into receivership.
https://www.businessrescueexpert.co....-receivership/
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Old 14th August 2019, 11:58 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It doesn't count as offensive when its being spouted by a Remainer.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8998076.html
Use of the gerund collaboration doesn't carry the same sort of baggage as calling someone, especially an opponent, a Collaborator.

The whole Leaver schtick harks back to the days of Empire and Britain's greatest hour when Britain (and its Empire and its remaining allies, but those are conveniently forgotten) stood alone against Hitler. In that context the word Collaborator was a deliberate and careful choice IMO.
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Old 15th August 2019, 12:12 AM   #645
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Jeremy Corbyn has revealed how he will defeat a no-deal Brexit (and instead have a Corbyn Brexit that no-one other than about 25% of the Labour Party wants )

The Plan in full is:
  • Win motion of no-confidence
  • Be appointed Prime Minister in a coalition of Labour, SNP, LibDems and Tory rebels
  • Delay Brexit until the Corbyn Brexit deal (which if you recall is equally as fantastic as the wildest ERG fever-dream)
  • Hold and win a referendum to approve his Brexit

The response from the leader of one of the parties he is counting on for support:

Quote:
Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson dismissed the plans as "nonsense".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49352250

The Conservatives are truly lucky to have such an ineffective and ineffectual leader of the opposition.
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Old 15th August 2019, 12:15 AM   #646
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A clear indication of what a post-Brexit deal with the US will entail:

Quote:
The UK must accept US food standards as part of any future trade deal with Washington, the head of America's farming lobby has said.

Zippy Duvall, head of the American Farm Bureau, said US farmers were keen to trade with their British "friends".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49353220

It seems that "taking back control" means no longer being a key influencer in setting the standards for a large multinational body of which we are a member and instead accept whatever standards the US wants to impose (which at the same time will significantly complicate doing business with the EU)
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Old 15th August 2019, 02:56 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Jeremy Corbyn has revealed how he will defeat a no-deal Brexit (and instead have a Corbyn Brexit that no-one other than about 25% of the Labour Party wants )

The Plan in full is:
  • Win motion of no-confidence
  • Be appointed Prime Minister in a coalition of Labour, SNP, LibDems and Tory rebels
  • Delay Brexit until the Corbyn Brexit deal (which if you recall is equally as fantastic as the wildest ERG fever-dream)
  • Hold and win a referendum to approve his Brexit

The response from the leader of one of the parties he is counting on for support:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49352250

The Conservatives are truly lucky to have such an ineffective and ineffectual leader of the opposition.
Isn't that basically Jo Swinson's plan too though? Except she won't work with the SNP to deliver it making it even harder.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:01 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Remoaners sure are getting desperate now - a good example being Green MP Caroline Lucas's recent sexist and non-inclusive article - if you really want to criticize an MP for saying or writing offensive stuff about Brexit, then you should begin with her.
She has been poo-pooed for her ridiculous idea, from all sides.
So hardly the equivalent.

Where are the Moggs and IDS's pointing out that "collaborator" is a divisive term to use?
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:48 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You can't blame him for claiming what he's entitled to, and it's very much to his credit that he's willing to give up this source of income in order that the country can leave the EU.

I know! He really is a modern day folk hero isn't he: unelected in the noble English fashion rather than the untrustworthy EU fashion, and not in any way a hypocritical, disingenuous, machiavellian little craphound doing his damndest to push through a No Deal Brexit that few desire, via a backdoor insurrection of government, despite being currently in contempt of Parliament, and despite there being a consistent majority for Remain for the last two years.

Meanwhile, actual working farmers are making their feelings known today:

Farmers calling for second EU referendum to herd sheep down Whitehall in protest on Thursday
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Old 15th August 2019, 08:28 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How is saying, "We will leave on the agreed written-in-law deadline, with or without your help." whining, or having false expectations?
You want things the EU doesn’t give to any non-EU country. Furthermore it’s not just the EU that doesn’t offer these things, no other country does either. What you are asking for is not reasonable and no one is going to give in to unreasonable demands just because you’ve threaten to harm yourself.

My advice is to stop expecting the EU to make unreasonable compromises, stop complaining the EU won’t make unreasonable compromises and stop trying to blame the people who told you your expectations were unreasonable and would never happen.
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:08 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You can't blame him for claiming what he's entitled to, and it's very much to his credit that he's willing to give up this source of income in order that the country can leave the EU.
When did we vote on his entitlement? Plus of course you can blame someone for acting in a way that is against their stated principles. No one forced him to take up his "entitlement".
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:42 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
He's absolutely right. You would think Phillip Hammond and others like him were employees of the EU, not MPs who are elected by and paid by UK taxpayers.
Who were split 52/48 on Leaving.

Tell you what, you regard your taxes as paying for Johnson, Gove, Patel, etc., and I'll regard mine as paying for Hammond, Lucas, Foxcroft, etc. Sorted.

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Old 15th August 2019, 09:44 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Remoaners sure are getting desperate now - a good example being Green MP Caroline Lucas's recent sexist and non-inclusive article - if you really want to criticize an MP for saying or writing offensive stuff about Brexit, then you should begin with her.
Like you give a **** about that, except as a stick to beat her with.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:58 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Again for reference: I’m Canadian so I have no dog in the fight.

With that in mind as a mostly independent third party, it’s clear that the EU is the reasonable ones here. What they are demanding fits all international norms for how nations interact. It’s BJ and Brexiters in general with the false sense of entitlement and whining because no one will conform to their completely unreasonable expectations

This is I think the problem, in negotiations one should not demand, the EU may be asking for or offering, but not demanding. I am also not sure about 'international norms', as I recall the international norm is "War is the continuation of politics by other means". The EU declared policy is that the UK should not profit by leaving the EU; a reasonable policy should be the EU should not lose by Brexit; an unreasonable policy is to prevent the UK from benefitting from leaving the EU*. So I do not think the EU is following international norms if there are such things.

*For avoidance of doubt I think the UK will inevitably suffer from leaving the EU and should remain in the EU, this does not exempt me from criticising the EU negotiation policy. From a selfish view point as a UK resident I want the UK to get the best deal it can if we exit the EU; it may be second best to being in the EU but I want it to be the best second best the UK can get. The UK government should be demanding the most, that is how negotiations go, the EU should allow the UK to have the most that does not negatively impact on the EU and vice versa. To deliberately disadvantage the UK to no benefit to the EU is at best spiteful and at worst may have long term consequences that are unpredictable. (The BBC had a recent series entitled the history of the treaty of Versaille in five wars.)
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Old 15th August 2019, 12:34 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is I think the problem, in negotiations one should not demand, the EU may be asking for or offering, but not demanding.
Then maybe the british negotiating team shouldn't have been the ones demanding all the benefits of EU membership but none of the responsibilities?

Quote:
*For avoidance of doubt I think the UK will inevitably suffer from leaving the EU and should remain in the EU, this does not exempt me from criticising the EU negotiation policy. From a selfish view point as a UK resident I want the UK to get the best deal it can if we exit the EU; it may be second best to being in the EU but I want it to be the best second best the UK can get. The UK government should be demanding the most, that is how negotiations go, the EU should allow the UK to have the most that does not negatively impact on the EU and vice versa. To deliberately disadvantage the UK to no benefit to the EU is at best spiteful and at worst may have long term consequences that are unpredictable. (The BBC had a recent series entitled the history of the treaty of Versaille in five wars.)
But you don't negotiate by demanding!!!! Why are you trying to scuttle negotiations by having the UK issue demands?
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Old 15th August 2019, 01:04 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then maybe the british negotiating team shouldn't have been the ones demanding all the benefits of EU membership but none of the responsibilities?



But you don't negotiate by demanding!!!! Why are you trying to scuttle negotiations by having the UK issue demands?
And that is why I am not a politician!

Yes double standard mis-speak there. The UK should be asking firmly for the best deal they can get but not demanding!
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Old 15th August 2019, 01:22 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
And that is why I am not a politician!

Yes double standard mis-speak there. The UK should be asking firmly for the best deal they can get but not demanding!
The thing is that the EU certainly seems to have been the ones say doing the work and showing up, as well as looking for a solution within established norms. It is the UK team that wasn't doing any of that, and they were not even holding brussels hostage with nuclear weapons to get what they wanted, a plan that has better chances than the one they used.
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Old 15th August 2019, 02:00 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The thing is that the EU certainly seems to have been the ones say doing the work and showing up, as well as looking for a solution within established norms. It is the UK team that wasn't doing any of that, and they were not even holding brussels hostage with nuclear weapons to get what they wanted, a plan that has better chances than the one they used.
You may be right. I have no idea about the details of the negotiations. The EU can claim limited flexibility since everything that has not been pre-agreed would have to be approved by all the other EU members etc. The UK can claim limited ability to agree since the UK parliament has to agree not the government.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:34 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by Ape of Good Hope View Post
I know! He really is a modern day folk hero isn't he: unelected in the noble English fashion rather than the untrustworthy EU fashion, and not in any way a hypocritical, disingenuous, machiavellian little craphound doing his damndest to push through a No Deal Brexit that few desire, via a backdoor insurrection of government, despite being currently in contempt of Parliament, and despite there being a consistent majority for Remain for the last two years.

Meanwhile, actual working farmers are making their feelings known today:

Farmers calling for second EU referendum to herd sheep down Whitehall in protest on Thursday
This made me chuckle:

Quote:
Farmers have warned the government that 40% tariffs on meat exported to the EU could lead to the mass slaughter of sheep.

Helen Roberts from the National Sheep Association in Wales said in July it would be “absolutely catastrophic” to leave with no deal and could lead to civil unrest among sheep farmers.
Visions of sheep farmers gathering up pitch forks, pikes and rakes marching upon London Wat Tyler-style is something I would pay to see.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:08 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
You may be right. I have no idea about the details of the negotiations. The EU can claim limited flexibility since everything that has not been pre-agreed would have to be approved by all the other EU members etc. The UK can claim limited ability to agree since the UK parliament has to agree not the government.
Yet you make characterizations about the motives behind the details you don't know anything about.

Fascinating.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:31 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
And that is why I am not a politician!

Yes double standard mis-speak there. The UK should be asking firmly for the best deal they can get but not demanding!
Thing is, the UK actually GOT a good deal.

All negotiated and all that.

And then rejected it and wanted an even better deal, which they were told beforehand is unreasonable.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:15 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
And that is why I am not a politician!

Yes double standard mis-speak there. The UK should be asking firmly for the best deal they can get but not demanding!
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Thing is, the UK actually GOT a good deal.

All negotiated and all that.

And then rejected it and wanted an even better deal, which they were told beforehand is unreasonable.
There's a website called notalwaysright which collates customer service stories (though IMO many are frankly unbelievable and if not completely made up, are maybe only inspired by a true story). A regular type of story is the customer who keeps demanding a much larger discount than they are entitled to and are upset and offended when they don't receive it.

The "terms and conditions" for dealing with the EU are pretty well known and publicised and at an overly simplified level are:
  • If you want to be in the EEA you have to agree with the "four freedoms", to abide by EU rules and regulations and contribute to the EU budget
  • If you want to be in a Customs Union with the EU then you have to abide by EU rules and regulations (including not having separate trade deals)
  • Otherwise the closest relationship you can aspire to is some kind of (free) trade relationship

The UK is asking for the top tier of benefits when we're only willing to commit to the minimum purchase.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:05 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...........
  • If you want to be in a Customs Union with the EU then you have to abide by EU rules and regulations (including not having separate trade deals)

......
It goes beyond this. If you are in any customs union and have deals outside that you need internal borders where goods produced inside and outside the union can be distinguished and taxed.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:06 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The extra 2 billion over the next 90 days (if they manage to spend it) is still less than our net contribution to subsidize the EU during the same period.
Except we will not be getting it all back. I recall that we are going to continue to be part of some EU institutions in order for our planes to fly and our businesses to trade. There will be a contribution to the costs of all those things.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:26 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Except we will not be getting it all back. I recall that we are going to continue to be part of some EU institutions in order for our planes to fly and our businesses to trade. There will be a contribution to the costs of all those things.
Don't be silly, the EU will allow the UK to use these services gratis because they recognise the innate superiority of the English
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:12 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The EU declared policy is that the UK should not profit by leaving the EU; a reasonable policy should be the EU should not lose by Brexit;
EU does lose by Brexit by default. This is not in question.

Quote:
an unreasonable policy is to prevent the UK from benefitting from leaving the EU*
Why would this be an unreasonable policy for the EU?

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Old 16th August 2019, 03:24 AM   #667
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It goes beyond this. If you are in any customs union and have deals outside that you need internal borders where goods produced inside and outside the union can be distinguished and taxed.
And yet the US is insisting on the UK adopting their food standards, and at the same time, insisting on the GFA being upheld.... which means an open border.

How does that work?
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:25 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by McHrozni
Quote:
an unreasonable policy is to prevent the UK from benefitting from leaving the EU*
Why would this be an unreasonable policy for the EU?

McHrozni
Well because it's none of the EU's business what the UK does post Brexit, if it becomes a global free trading powerhouse and workers paradise, that's down to the UK and the EU shouldn't be trying to stop that. I don't think that an EU which tried to damage third countries' economies would be a particularly popular organisation.
The EU does have a legitimate interest in making sure the post Brexit UK does not have more favourable trading terms with the EU than actual EU members though.
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:31 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
And yet the US is insisting on the UK adopting their food standards, and at the same time, insisting on the GFA being upheld.... which means an open border.

How does that work?
Quite right only an idiot would not realise the two are incomparable and Donald Trump is not an idi....... Oh.




Couldn't resist. To be fair you have different people saying different things I am not sure that the same people are suggesting both. Nancy Pelosi has prioritised the open border suggesting that comes first and any trade deal needs to compatable. Others talking about clorinated chicken and the like haven't to my knowledge claimed that can be done without an Irish border.

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Old 16th August 2019, 04:09 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
And yet the US is insisting on the UK adopting their food standards, and at the same time, insisting on the GFA being upheld.... which means an open border.



How does that work?
The same way Brexit has always worked, it doesn't.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:35 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
And yet the US is insisting on the UK adopting their food standards, and at the same time, insisting on the GFA being upheld.... which means an open border.

How does that work?
To be fair, it's the White House and their folks insisting on increased access to various UK markets and lowered food standards, while it's members of congress who are insisting the GFA must be adhered to.

The trouble for Johnson and the White House, is that any agreement will have to pass congress. Johnson will really have to sell the UK by the cent in order to get an agreement that will be too generous for Congress to ignore.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:44 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
To be fair, it's the White House and their folks insisting on increased access to various UK markets and lowered food standards, while it's members of congress who are insisting the GFA must be adhered to.

The trouble for Johnson and the White House, is that any agreement will have to pass congress. Johnson will really have to sell the UK by the cent in order to get an agreement that will be too generous for Congress to ignore.
I see no reason to see why he would be willing to do so.......

In the event of a no deal Brexit, the government will be desperate for any kind of good news on the trade deal front - even if it turns out to be anything but. IMO they will accept any terms offered by the US (or any other major economy bar the EU).
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:07 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I see no reason to see why he would be willing to do so.......

In the event of a no deal Brexit, the government will be desperate for any kind of good news on the trade deal front - even if it turns out to be anything but. IMO they will accept any terms offered by the US (or any other major economy bar the EU).
In order to take back control, no less.

The deadline is tight. He can count on Trump for only 14.5 months after Brexit date and in order to hold a Garage sale of the UK BJ will need another snap election first. He might be willing to sell UK for pennies to pound, but with a working majority of one Parliament won't ratify it. That takes two months off the table, substract another month in late December and early January, another in the summer for the recess and there is only about ten months to negotiate, legislate and ratify the whole thing.

That's approximately ten times faster than the usual trade deals, all done amidst the greatest crisis in 75 years, with the least capable cabinet in, ugh, at least 200 years I guess. If it takes beyond January of 2021, Trump may no longer be a savior. Recession is coming in an election year, that's bad news for the incumbent.

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Old 16th August 2019, 05:07 AM   #674
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I see no reason to see why he would be willing to do so.......

In the event of a no deal Brexit, the government will be desperate for any kind of good news on the trade deal front - even if it turns out to be anything but. IMO they will accept any terms offered by the US (or any other major economy bar the EU).
And what are the chances that deal will be defeated in parliament, just like the May deal was?
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:07 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is I think the problem, in negotiations one should not demand, the EU may be asking for or offering, but not demanding.
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The UK government should be demanding the most, that is how negotiations go,
So, the EU can’t demand anything even when it’s perfectly reasonable, but UK can make all the demands it wants even when those demands are clearly unreasonable?
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The EU declared policy is that the UK should not profit by leaving the EU; a reasonable policy should be the EU should not lose by Brexit;
That isn’t an EU policy it’s just basic economic reality.
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
a reasonable policy should be the EU should not lose by Brexit;
There is nothing reasonable about this. The UK will suffer much more, but both sides loose and there is no practicable way to avoid it.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am also not sure about 'international norms'
I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about it. How trade and travel are conducted is pretty much standard across the world and if you are no longer in the EU this is what you should expect travel and trade with the EU to look like
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:04 AM   #676
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Some people need to keep in mind entire point of many EU rules is that they provide a common framework for having free travel, trade etc between the different countries that make up the EU. “Why can’t we have an agreement with the EU to let us…” is often nonsensical because the cornerstone of the EU essentially whole series of just such agreements negotiated and agreed to by all the it’s members. Furthermore all EU members needed to make compromises to arrive at these agreements and get the benefits of them.

The UK coming along and asking for a different set rules was never going to fly because no EU member is going to agree to give the UK a pass on all the compromises they needed to make to gain the benefits of free trade, movement etc that the EU provided. There is no deal the EU can make that doesn’t require the UK either following all EU rules or being treated the same way it treats all non-EU countries.
So from the EU perspective:
The UK must either follow EU trade rules, or function as a non-EU country. The latter means significant trade barriers for the decade+ that it takes to hammer out a trade deal
The UK must either follow EU freedom of movement principles or be treated as a non-EU control and travelers must check in at border crossings when entering the EU.
The UK must either be part of the customs agreement of have goods/travellers pass though customs when entering the EU.

Brexiters can whine and cry all they want that they don’t like any of these alternatives but IMO it’s clear there is no practical way the EU can offer anything else.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:20 AM   #677
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Except we will not be getting it all back. I recall that we are going to continue to be part of some EU institutions in order for our planes to fly and our businesses to trade. There will be a contribution to the costs of all those things.
Why should we pay the EU to let us fly our own planes? The EU also want to fly their planes to the UK, and most of the routes from continental Europe to the USA pass through British airspace. I would expect any nominal payments for these activities would cancel out, resulting in roughly zero net payment in either direction to allow the present situation to continue after Brexit: if there are any payments to be made, for all I know the EU will end up making a net payment to us?

Same sort of principle applies to businesses trading - I realize that the EU may choose to impose tariffs, but I don't see why they would expect regular cash payments over and above that for a "free" trade deal - the clue is in the name.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:20 AM   #678
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Video of Ken Clarke in 2015 pointing out the problems with not specifying what type of Leave a leave vote would mean.

Note the denials by the leavers:

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/sta...01456612339712
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I see no reason to see why he would be willing to do so.......

In the event of a no deal Brexit, the government will be desperate for any kind of good news on the trade deal front - even if it turns out to be anything but. IMO they will accept any terms offered by the US (or any other major economy bar the EU).
Well, this has upsides and downsides when it comes to Trump. He will absolutely tweet out how great the trade deal is already going (nevermind whether Congress has ratified it). But, being Trump, will just have to emphasize how he took you to the cleaners and its all icing for the US of A. That might not be so helpful after all on your side of the pond.
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:40 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Why should we pay the EU to let us fly our own planes? The EU also want to fly their planes to the UK, and most of the routes from continental Europe to the USA pass through British airspace. I would expect any nominal payments for these activities would cancel out, resulting in roughly zero net payment in either direction to allow the present situation to continue after Brexit: if there are any payments to be made, for all I know the EU will end up making a net payment to us?
Because of the North Atlantic Organised Track System, westward traffic takes the northern route to avoid the jetstream headwind that would increase flight lengths and fuel costs. Eastward traffic takes routes through the middle Atlantic, advantaged with the tailwind.

Are you suggesting abolishing that system and having UK traffic controllers be the only party responsible to sort out bi-directional traffic in the most crowded air corridors on the planet?

Perhaps conforming to some international norms that reduce risk to human life seems sensible after all.

Quote:
Same sort of principle applies to businesses trading - I realize that the EU may choose to impose tariffs, but I don't see why they would expect regular cash payments over and above that for a "free" trade deal - the clue is in the name.
They can certainly have an expectation for payments towards the costs of the institutions that administer and oversee the aspects of the multilateral agreements made.

It's the same sort of rationalization that the UK has about its citizens' tax obligations.

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