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Old 16th August 2019, 09:48 AM   #681
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Why should we pay the EU to let us fly our own planes? The EU also want to fly their planes to the UK, and most of the routes from continental Europe to the USA pass through British airspace. I would expect any nominal payments for these activities would cancel out, resulting in roughly zero net payment in either direction to allow the present situation to continue after Brexit: if there are any payments to be made, for all I know the EU will end up making a net payment to us?
You might want to try looking at a map. There is a lot more EU territory for British aircraft to over-fly en route to various destinations, than there if of the UK for EU aircraft to fly over en route to the US (or Canada, for that matter).
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:42 AM   #682
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49368217

What was all that stuff about the nasty Turks all coming over here and stealing our jobs?
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:44 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
They can certainly have an expectation for payments towards the costs of the institutions that administer and oversee the aspects of the multilateral agreements made.

Nonsense. Do you think the EU should therefore contribute to our UK institutions that will also need to administer and oversee the same agreements?
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:48 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You might want to try looking at a map. There is a lot more EU territory for British aircraft to over-fly en route to various destinations, than there if of the UK for EU aircraft to fly over en route to the US (or Canada, for that matter).
You might want to try looking at a map yourself - or better a globe as air routes on some map projections seem counter-intuitive. Lots of planes from both continental Europe and the UK fly to the USA.

Planes from the UK to the USA don't have to pass through EU airspace, but any planes bound to the USA from much of France, Germany, the Benelux countries and countries further east do pass through British airspace.

If the EU decided to play hardball, which I'm sure they won't, we could tell them to take more circuitous and slower routes when flying to America.

Last edited by ceptimus; 16th August 2019 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:52 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Lots of planes from both continental Europe and the UK fly to the USA.

Planes from the UK to the USA don't have to pass through EU airspace, but any planes bound to the USA from much of France, Germany, the Benelux countries and countries further east do pass through British airspace.
And most UK planes that fly to Africa, Asia, Australasia, the Middle East and the Far East pass through EU airspace.

Probably a lot more than EU flights to the Americas.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:44 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Why should we pay the EU to let us fly our own planes? The EU also want to fly their planes to the UK, and most of the routes from continental Europe to the USA pass through British airspace. I would expect any nominal payments for these activities would cancel out, resulting in roughly zero net payment in either direction to allow the present situation to continue after Brexit: if there are any payments to be made, for all I know the EU will end up making a net payment to us?

Same sort of principle applies to businesses trading - I realize that the EU may choose to impose tariffs, but I don't see why they would expect regular cash payments over and above that for a "free" trade deal - the clue is in the name.
What a simplistic view. That is not how any of that works. Actually, it is not what the problem is. It isn't about "nominal" payments to enter each others airspace. That is the least of your concerns.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:55 AM   #687
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Then again, a lot of UK flights go through Irish airspace on the way to the US east coast.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:06 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Then again, a lot of UK flights go through Irish airspace on the way to the US east coast.
But Ireland is a vassal state of the UK right? Nothing to do with the EU, right?
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:12 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Then again, a lot of UK flights go through Irish airspace on the way to the US east coast.
It's almost as though an agreement, or "deal" if you wish, is a good idea.

It's not that these problems are insurmountable, it's that there isn't much time, and some of the critical ones won't be spotted and prioritised until too late.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:12 PM   #690
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I think someone here just has a hard time accepting that the UK is part of Europe geographically and economically.
He also has a hard time accepting that the UK Is NOT the all powerful economic power it was in the 19th Century. Queen VIctoria died a long time ago....
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:03 PM   #691
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Remember all those dire warnings about the Turks pouring into the country? Well it seems they aren't welcome but their money is:

Turkish army pension fund to buy British Steel


And what does this have to do with Brexit? Well the EU was proposing to adopt higher tariffs to prevent the Chinese 'dumping' steel and undermining the steel makers of Europe, guess who led the charge to stop those tariff increases?

Ministers 'blocking higher Chinese steel tariffs'

So basically bankrupting a UK industry then selling it off cheap to foreign interests, the blueprint for our post Brexit economy under BoJo.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:22 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Thing is, the UK actually GOT a good deal.

All negotiated and all that.

And then rejected it and wanted an even better deal, which they were told beforehand is unreasonable.
I think you are right the 'deal' was good. The problem that caused it to fail to get parliamentary support was the addendum in the form of the backstop. The EU was requiring the UK to sign up to an eternal commitment when the rest of the deal was a temporary deal. This is an extraordinary thing to require. To require the other party to sign up to a commitment to the outcome of future negotiations that could only be exited from with the agreement of the other party before the negotiations had begun. The backstop was unnecessary if the deal had been signed. If the EU had deferred the backstop to the next stage of negotiations then the May deal would probably have got through.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:31 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think you are right the 'deal' was good. The problem that caused it to fail to get parliamentary support was the addendum in the form of the backstop. The EU was requiring the UK to sign up to an eternal commitment when the rest of the deal was a temporary deal. This is an extraordinary thing to require. To require the other party to sign up to a commitment to the outcome of future negotiations that could only be exited from with the agreement of the other party before the negotiations had begun. The backstop was unnecessary if the deal had been signed. If the EU had deferred the backstop to the next stage of negotiations then the May deal would probably have got through.
Yes, why ever would the EU want an agreement to prevent massive smuggling from occurring on the open land border between the UK and the EU? Odd.

Of course this could have been prevented, like you say, if the Brexit camp had kept it's campaign promise of negotiating a deal before triggering article 50. But that, like everything else associated with the campaign, turned out to be a lie.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:32 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Remember all those dire warnings about the Turks pouring into the country? Well it seems they aren't welcome but their money is:

Turkish army pension fund to buy British Steel


And what does this have to do with Brexit? Well the EU was proposing to adopt higher tariffs to prevent the Chinese 'dumping' steel and undermining the steel makers of Europe, guess who led the charge to stop those tariff increases?

Ministers 'blocking higher Chinese steel tariffs'

So basically bankrupting a UK industry then selling it off cheap to foreign interests, the blueprint for our post Brexit economy under BoJo.
Isn't it a French man who owns British Steel Ltd. having brought it from an Indian? I think the industry had gone bankrupt long ago.

The country as a whole may be be better for having access to cheap steel rather than adopting the Trumpian approach you seem to advocate by introducing tariffs on foreign products until your 'own' industry can compete with foreign competitors.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:51 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Yes, why ever would the EU want an agreement to prevent massive smuggling from occurring on the open land border between the UK and the EU? Odd.

Of course this could have been prevented, like you say, if the Brexit camp had kept it's campaign promise of negotiating a deal before triggering article 50. But that, like everything else associated with the campaign, turned out to be a lie.
The problem is the EU wanted the UK to agree to the outcome of the negotiations before the negotiations had begun. essentially the back stop says the UK needs to remain functionally part of the EU, part of the common travel and trade area, subject to the ECJ, subject to EU legislation. What those who had voted for Brexit had voted against. Effectively the UK would be in an identical position as prior to leaving the EU, but with no democratic participation in the EU. Effectively a colony of the EU. Unlike being part of the EU when article 50 allows a member to leave the EU, the backstop says the UK could only leave the association with the EU with the EU's permission. This would be a potential political disaster; what would have happened if the UK had signed up to the backstop and a future government held a referendum on exiting the current arrangements and it got e.g a 60% majority and the EU said we will ignore this the UK cannot leave. The UK would have fewer rights than current EU members, Denmark which is part of the Schengen free travel area has id checks on the border for people coming across the border from Germany. The UK could not make the same decision that EU members can do. Remember all the GFA says about the border is that it should be demilitarised. The GFA does not say there should be no border checks. The EU does not say there should be no border checks.

Last edited by Planigale; 16th August 2019 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:54 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Yes, why ever would the EU want an agreement to prevent massive smuggling from occurring on the open land border between the UK and the EU? Odd.

Of course this could have been prevented, like you say, if the Brexit camp had kept it's campaign promise of negotiating a deal before triggering article 50. But that, like everything else associated with the campaign, turned out to be a lie.
I think you are under the delusion smuggling does not happen now. Insisting on an open border is what permits smuggling.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:11 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think you are under the delusion smuggling does not happen now. Insisting on an open border is what permits smuggling.
No, I do not believe smuggling does not happen, but once the UK gets it's 'great trade deal' from the US the incentive will increase significantly. To prevent that significant border checks are needed.

The other countries with a land border with the EU either do these checks in their (airports), like the scandinavians and the swiss or there are guarded border checks, like with the eastern/southern borders.

And as has been mentioned before, even with a backstop the UK could always take the same no-deal step they are taking now.

You are advocating the same having your cake and eating it too that the brexit camp keeps using. Either keep up with the standards that indeed you have no control over (like norway) and have an open border while a further deal is negotiated, or no deal and a closed border in which case the UK can import whatever non-regulated crap the US and China want to dump.

It's not the EU's fault that the mythical 'easy deal, we hold all the cards' failed to materialize and that a significant part of the UK still believes britannia rules the waves, rather than being the junior partner in this deal.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:31 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You might want to try looking at a map yourself - or better a globe as air routes on some map projections seem counter-intuitive. Lots of planes from both continental Europe and the UK fly to the USA.

Planes from the UK to the USA don't have to pass through EU airspace, but any planes bound to the USA from much of France, Germany, the Benelux countries and countries further east do pass through British airspace.
Did you actually bother reading the entirety of what I wrote?
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:50 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Isn't it a French man who owns British Steel Ltd. having brought it from an Indian? I think the industry had gone bankrupt long ago.

The country as a whole may be be better for having access to cheap steel rather than adopting the Trumpian approach you seem to advocate by introducing tariffs on foreign products until your 'own' industry can compete with foreign competitors.
Steel is a strategic industry.
If it goes bust what happens when we want to build another carrier and foreign governments won't let their industries sell us steel to build it?
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:25 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Steel is a strategic industry.
If it goes bust what happens when we want to build another carrier and foreign governments won't let their industries sell us steel to build it?
What Trump said? Not sure I'll take economic advice from your mentor.
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:51 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
No, I do not believe smuggling does not happen, but once the UK gets it's 'great trade deal' from the US the incentive will increase significantly. To prevent that significant border checks are needed.

The other countries with a land border with the EU either do these checks in their (airports), like the scandinavians and the swiss or there are guarded border checks, like with the eastern/southern borders.

And as has been mentioned before, even with a backstop the UK could always take the same no-deal step they are taking now.

You are advocating the same having your cake and eating it too that the brexit camp keeps using. Either keep up with the standards that indeed you have no control over (like norway) and have an open border while a further deal is negotiated, or no deal and a closed border in which case the UK can import whatever non-regulated crap the US and China want to dump.

It's not the EU's fault that the mythical 'easy deal, we hold all the cards' failed to materialize and that a significant part of the UK still believes britannia rules the waves, rather than being the junior partner in this deal.
So your perception is that the UK will be full of cheap goods that the citizens of the EU are desperate to get their hands on, but EU rules won't let them. The people of Cork are gagging for chlorinated chicken, and that the pure white butter you get in the US rather than that horrible yellow stuff that Anchor markets is what the citizens of Dublin clammer for?

Why should smuggling be more of an issue into Ireland than it is now? Presumably the EU don't really care if Jameson's and Camembert are smuggled in to NI?


The Vatican is not in the EU but there are no restrictions between it and the EU. monaco is no in the EU and there are no borders restrictions between it and the EU.

Much of the argument seems to be this is not the way it is done this is not the norm. These are excuses not to do something. If you want something to happen you innovate you don't accept this is the way it was done in the past so this is the way it has to be done in the future.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:26 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Steel is a strategic industry.
If it goes bust what happens when we want to build another carrier and foreign governments won't let their industries sell us steel to build it?
A bit like food security, but the farmers say that will be a goner too.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:09 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
So your perception is that the UK will be full of cheap goods that the citizens of the EU are desperate to get their hands on, but EU rules won't let them. The people of Cork are gagging for chlorinated chicken, and that the pure white butter you get in the US rather than that horrible yellow stuff that Anchor markets is what the citizens of Dublin clammer for?

Why should smuggling be more of an issue into Ireland than it is now? Presumably the EU don't really care if Jameson's and Camembert are smuggled in to NI?


The Vatican is not in the EU but there are no restrictions between it and the EU. monaco is no in the EU and there are no borders restrictions between it and the EU.

Much of the argument seems to be this is not the way it is done this is not the norm. These are excuses not to do something. If you want something to happen you innovate you don't accept this is the way it was done in the past so this is the way it has to be done in the future.
Those micro-states have agreed to membership in various instruments of the EU system or agreed to be administered as part of another state. Should the UK join the appropriate organizations in similar fashion, they could also operate that way.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:09 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What Trump said? Not sure I'll take economic advice from your mentor.
The concept of nationally strategic industries isn't a uniquely Trumpian one, it's a well-established, especially when it comes to national defence.

Whether steel in the UK should be one of them is a different matter.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:15 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Why should smuggling be more of an issue into Ireland than it is now? Presumably the EU don't really care if Jameson's and Camembert are smuggled in to NI?
Because there is conformity on tariffs and standards, there is less incentive to smuggle goods between the nations in the EU. Note however that when there is an incentive to do so, for example cigarettes and other tobacco products where UK taxes are substantially higher than some other EU countries, then smuggling already happens on an industrial scale.

If there are 40% import tariffs on certain foodstuffs in the EU (or UK if we're operating on WTO terms) then there's a clear financial incentive to smuggle from UK to Ireland and vice versa.

If the UK conforms to US food regulations in the future then the EU will be very concerned about substandard (but cheap due to heavy US subsidies) food being smuggled across the border and entering the EU food chain.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:38 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
And most UK planes that fly to Africa, Asia, Australasia, the Middle East and the Far East pass through EU airspace.

Probably a lot more than EU flights to the Americas.
Glad to see that the point I was making wasn't as obscure as Ceptimus's response suggests...

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Old 16th August 2019, 10:55 PM   #707
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What Trump said? Not sure I'll take economic advice from your mentor.
Trump is hardly the originator of the idea. In fact, the principle goes back to Admiral Collingwood and his pocketful of acorns.

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Old 16th August 2019, 10:56 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
So your perception is that the UK will be full of cheap goods that the citizens of the EU are desperate to get their hands on, but EU rules won't let them. The people of Cork are gagging for chlorinated chicken, and that the pure white butter you get in the US rather than that horrible yellow stuff that Anchor markets is what the citizens of Dublin clammer for?

Why should smuggling be more of an issue into Ireland than it is now? Presumably the EU don't really care if Jameson's and Camembert are smuggled in to NI?


The Vatican is not in the EU but there are no restrictions between it and the EU. monaco is no in the EU and there are no borders restrictions between it and the EU.

Much of the argument seems to be this is not the way it is done this is not the norm. These are excuses not to do something. If you want something to happen you innovate you don't accept this is the way it was done in the past so this is the way it has to be done in the future.
US foodstuffs are made using methods the EU does not condone, but which does make bulk products significantly cheaper.
Once the UK drops its inspections it can import those things (destroying their own farmers in the progress, but hey at least they're free from the EU).

If there is no controlled border in NI why would large food companies NOT buy the cheaper stuff and transport it to the EU for larger profits?

If that weren't a danger, the controls and checks would not exist.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:04 PM   #709
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The people of Cork are gagging for chlorinated chicken, and that the pure white butter you get in the US rather than that horrible yellow stuff that Anchor markets is what the citizens of Dublin clammer for?
I would have thought the Irish in general would favour neither in preference to Kerrygold.
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:41 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What Trump said? Not sure I'll take economic advice from your mentor.
What does Trump have to do with it?
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:21 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What does Trump have to do with it?
Raising tariffs to protect US industry is a faily central element of Trumpian economic policy.
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:23 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
monaco is no in the EU and there are no borders restrictions between it and the EU.
Because there is a customs union between Monaco and France. As a consequence all French (and therefore EU) customs and VAT rules apply in Monaco. Therefore imported goods from third countries into Monaca is just the same as importing them into France. See among other Article 7 of EU directive 2006/112/EC on VAT: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...206010&from=FR
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:29 AM   #713
Planigale
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
US foodstuffs are made using methods the EU does not condone, but which does make bulk products significantly cheaper.
Once the UK drops its inspections it can import those things (destroying their own farmers in the progress, but hey at least they're free from the EU).

If there is no controlled border in NI why would large food companies NOT buy the cheaper stuff and transport it to the EU for larger profits?

If that weren't a danger, the controls and checks would not exist.
Presumably selling in the EU and importing into the Eu would be illegal and they would be subject to legal action civil and perhaps criminal penalties. Occasionally large scale companies do break the law as happened over using non-medical grade silicone for breast implants. In general this sort of smuggling is on a small scale going to individuals or small privately owned businesses whoo aren't subject to oversight and audit in the way that bigger businesses are.
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:35 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Presumably selling in the EU and importing into the Eu would be illegal and they would be subject to legal action civil and perhaps criminal penalties. Occasionally large scale companies do break the law as happened over using non-medical grade silicone for breast implants. In general this sort of smuggling is on a small scale going to individuals or small privately owned businesses whoo aren't subject to oversight and audit in the way that bigger businesses are.
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:47 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Why should we pay the EU to let us fly our own planes?
Oh good grief, the ignorance, it burns...
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Old 17th August 2019, 01:54 AM   #716
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If the UK government and EU starts to argue over who can fly a plane over each other's territory, then we are in a relationship that is very troubled.

At the moment I trust both sides to not to fall out to that extent, but unless we can get back to negotiating and there are signs of an agreed deal, I do wonder.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:00 AM   #717
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In August 1969, 50 years ago, British troops were deployed to Northern Ireland. I would recommend this documentary about The Troubles;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007pb4

It is very relevant to now. I will be there next week, visiting a relative who has just been told he is being made redundant due to work drying up over Brexit uncertainty.

There is still stalemate in Stormont and there is a genuine concern those who have worked to compromise and keep the Good Friday Agreement are being driven apart by outside interventions.

The last time that happened, the UK decided to send in the troops...
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:05 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Raising tariffs to protect US industry is a faily central element of Trumpian economic policy.
It's standard across the world. Some industry is of strategic importance. I would say steel making is one of the basic industries the UK needs.
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:13 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's standard across the world. Some industry is of strategic importance. I would say steel making is one of the basic industries the UK needs.
Save your breath it became pretty obvious that once he invoked Trump Planigale was just trolling.
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:43 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If the UK government and EU starts to argue over who can fly a plane over each other's territory, then we are in a relationship that is very troubled.

At the moment I trust both sides to not to fall out to that extent, but unless we can get back to negotiating and there are signs of an agreed deal, I do wonder.
Sorry, a short holiday prevented me coming back sooner. I brought up the flight point not to say that we wouldn't be able to use EU airspace I am sure we will rather all these systems that we will remain part of have a cost to run and we will need to pay our share. Therefore it is it not safe to assume that we will save all the money we currently contribute.
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