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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 21st August 2019, 05:52 PM   #441
Ricardo
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Applying logic to your assertions.

1. pseudo-skeptics are those that ignore evidence
B. you have no evidence
iii. ergo, by definition (point 1) pseudo-skeptics don't exist.
4. QED
I said I have no evidence the scientific community demands! but I have evidence outside of official science, the spiritist doctrine or spiritism is not within the purview of the scientific community. but skeptics do not accept this evidence!
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:52 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
because the evidence of the existence of spirits will be denied, because it will undermine powerful interests! We cannot forget the politicization of science!
Are you claiming that science is currently politicized to deny or suppress evidence of spirits? What evidence do you have that no such politicization will be a factor in the 22nd century?
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:53 PM   #443
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There are many people against these ideas.

Last edited by Ricardo; 21st August 2019 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 21st August 2019, 06:00 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Are you claiming that science is currently politicized to deny or suppress evidence of spirits? What evidence do you have that no such politicization will be a factor in the 22nd century?
People will be with greater spiritual maturity!

It is the law of progress!
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Old 21st August 2019, 06:04 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
People will be with greater spiritual maturity!

It is the law of progress!
I don't know of any such law. What is your evidence that this will occur? What is "spiritual maturity" and what is your evidence for its existence? Are you claiming that people who don't believe in spirits, absent suitable evidence, are somehow immature?

Consider that in medieval times many things were attributed to spirits that were later determined to have other causes. This is an example of progress achieved by a careful, systematic examination of evidence. How do you think this sort of progress will result in more evidence for spirits?

Last edited by JayUtah; 21st August 2019 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 21st August 2019, 06:06 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
There are many people against these ideas.
That may be. The question is whether those who disagree with you have good reasons for doing so. In this case, they're saying they don't agree with you because you don't have suitable evidence for your claims. You seem to agree, and you promise to provide evidence and argument when you have them. However, now it seems you're trying to claim that science is politicized, and that this is why your claims aren't accepted. Which is it? Do people disagree with you because they are politicized against you, or because you don't have suitable evidence?
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Old 21st August 2019, 06:42 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You don't accept books as evidence of the existence of spirits ... Explain to me what kind of evidence you want? If you don't accept sites and books ... I'm not a scientist!
I have a series of books that tells me about wizards, their wands, and how they are trying to take over everything. There is one boy who will defeat them. Is this evidence about magic?
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Old 21st August 2019, 06:57 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That may be. The question is whether those who disagree with you have good reasons for doing so. In this case, they're saying they don't agree with you because you don't have suitable evidence for your claims. You seem to agree, and you promise to provide evidence and argument when you have them. However, now it seems you're trying to claim that science is politicized, and that this is why your claims aren't accepted. Which is it? Do people disagree with you because they are politicized against you, or because you don't have suitable evidence?
The evidence I have is documented and recorded in books I quoted here. but they are not considered by the skeptics of this forum. I believe honest scientists will find in the future evidence of the existence of spirits! here in Brazil the spiritist doctrine has millions of followers, in the United States already has many followers of the spiritist doctrine.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:01 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I don't know of any such law. What is your evidence that this will occur? What is "spiritual maturity" and what is your evidence for its existence? Are you claiming that people who don't believe in spirits, absent suitable evidence, are somehow immature?

Consider that in medieval times many things were attributed to spirits that were later determined to have other causes. This is an example of progress achieved by a careful, systematic examination of evidence. How do you think this sort of progress will result in more evidence for spirits?
You could read the books I quoted here, and then debate with me. You think of the idea just me and you in the debate! do you want the books link?
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:06 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
The evidence I have is documented and recorded in books I quoted here. but they are not considered by the skeptics of this forum.
And they gave you the reasons why your evidence is not accepted. You haven't addressed those reasons. You've just whined that people are somehow unfair to you.

Quote:
I believe honest scientists...
What evidence do you have that present scientists are dishonest?'

Quote:
here in Brazil the spiritist doctrine has millions of followers, in the United States already has many followers of the spiritist doctrine.
That people believe in something does not necessarily suggest there is reliable, repeatable, testable evidence for it. If you cannot provide that kind of evidence, you cannot expect skeptics to agree with you.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:08 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You could read the books I quoted here, and then debate with me. You think of the idea just me and you in the debate! do you want the books link?
No, I don't. I want you to answer the questions I asked you in my post. You seem to base most of your arguments on insulting your critics. You seem to deny the lessons of history regarding beliefs in spirits.

Quit shilling your books. Quit stalling. Quit complaining. Quiting blaming others for your inability to provide evidence. Address my posts without all those shenanigans, please.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:14 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, I don't. I want you to answer the questions I asked you in my post. You seem to base most of your arguments on insulting your critics. You seem to deny the lessons of history regarding beliefs in spirits.

Quit shilling your books. Quit stalling. Quit complaining. Quiting blaming others for your inability to provide evidence. Address my posts without all those shenanigans, please.
One day I had a lot of pain in my abdomen, my mother said a prayer and at the same moment the pain passed, that pain was caused by spirits as they told me. I'm sure it never happened to you! what's your explanation about this? I'm telling the truth !
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:18 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
One day I had a lot of pain in my abdomen, my mother said a prayer and at the same moment the pain passed, that pain was caused by spirits as they told me. I'm sure it never happened to you! what's your explanation about this? I'm telling the truth !
None of that has anything to do with the questions I asked. Answer my questions or admit you cannot.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:31 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
None of that has anything to do with the questions I asked. Answer my questions or admit you cannot.
I have no way to answer you, I have to follow the recommendation of a member of this forum as follows!

Hi, me again, the guy you ignored on the other thread about the same thing you started.

I'm a veteran ghost hunter. I've been on this board for a few years now and I've never been harassed or ridiculed.

My secret? I don't post claims I can't back up.

See, when I took Marine Biology I had to show my work. I had to dissect a fish, I had to count marine organisms within a 1mX1m grid, I had to count waves while estimating height, and timing their frequency over a one-hour period.

I haven't been on a spook hunt in a decade, but it always came down to assessing the person claiming the place was haunted and their motives for making the claim. Then I did the work. I never found found a ghost in a place that had a reputation if being haunted...EVER.

I can tell cool ghost stories all day but I can't prove any of them in any way that meets the scientific standard. I can live with this. The standard forces me to do a better, smarter job. Today I ask better questions. Today the question I'm trying to answer isn't, "Are ghosts real?", the better question is, "Why do honest people see ghosts or think their house is haunted?". Guess what? I'm getting answers to that question, and they are backed up by science.

I don't know, maybe sitting on the curb and pouting works for you, but you're on a forum full of men and women with useful knowledge who are happy to answer most of your dumb questions as long as you're polite. If you are in anyway serious about advancing your theory you should take advantage of this.

ask no more questions! I need to do more research.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:35 PM   #455
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I am going to guess the whole family follows the beliefs you demonstrate.

I will also guess much of your community is also.

Is prayer over pain and illness a common act there? Do local religious leaders also do this, much.like John of god did?
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:37 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Do you skeptical consider this evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1OK1ipqLHY


Thatís gonna be a hard no.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:40 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I am going to guess the whole family follows the beliefs you demonstrate.

I will also guess much of your community is also.

Is prayer over pain and illness a common act there? Do local religious leaders also do this, much.like John of god did?
this john of god is under arrest. He is a criminal!
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:49 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I have no way to answer you...
Find a way.

Do you consider your critics immature?

Do you consider science too politicized to address your beliefs?

Do you have an answer for why things that used to be attributed to spirits are now shown to be the result of more ordinary causes? If so, can you define your "law of progress" in a way that accommodates this?

Can you support with evidence your claim that present scientists are dishonest?

If you cannot answer these questions then you are not prepared for a rational debate. You seem to be more interested in preaching your beliefs and insulting people who don't immediately agree with you. Only you can change this impression.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:02 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
this john of god is under arrest. He is a criminal!
The fact he went too far with the ladies wasn't the point. The question was is his type of healing common.
Is it an accepted practice to be healed by faith?
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:06 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
But he contradicts himself:

Quote:
Of the facts referred to, the one first observed was the movement of objects, popularly called "table-turning." This phenomenon, first observed in America (or rather, renewed in that country, for history proves it to have been produced in the most remote ages of antiquity), was attended with various strange accompaniments, such as unusual noises, raps produced without any ostensible cause, etc. From America this phenomenon spread rapidly over Europe and the rest of the world. It was met at first with incredulity; but the movements were produced by so many experimenters, that it soon became impossible to doubt its reality
And then later he says:

Quote:
The positive sciences are based on the properties of matter, which may be experimented upon and manipulated at pleasure; but spiritist phenomena are an effect of the action of intelligences who have wills of their own, and who constantly show us that they are not subjected to ours. The observation of facts, therefore, cannot be carried on in the latter case in the same way as in the former one, for they proceed from another source, and require special conditions; and, consequently, to insist upon submitting them to the same methods of investigation is to insist on assuming the existence of analogies that do not exist. Science, properly so called, is therefore incompetent, as such, to decide the question of the truth of Spiritism; it has nothing to do with it; and its verdict in regard to it, whether favourable or otherwise, is of no weight.
I don't see how he can have it both ways. If these movements were produced by experimenters so that it became impossible to doubt its reality then he is making a claim of empirically verifiable phenomena.

So if someone could produce this "table-turning" today with the same reliability that they could in Kardec's time then it could be observed scientifically.


If scientists are able to detect a material agency turning the tables (for example an unobtrusive hand movement of the medium) then spiritual agency is ruled out. If scientists are not, even in the most rigorous of circumstances, able to detect a material agency turning the tables then that would lend a good deal of weight to the spiritist claim.

I should also point out that Allan Kardec is in the perfect position to assist in this.
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Last edited by Robin; 21st August 2019 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:26 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But he contradicts himself:



And then later he says:



I don't see how he can have it both ways. If these movements were produced by experimenters so that it became impossible to doubt its reality then he is making a claim of empirically verifiable phenomena.

So if someone could produce this "table-turning" today with the same reliability that they could in Kardec's time then it could be observed scientifically.


If scientists are able to detect a material agency turning the tables (for example an unobtrusive hand movement of the medium) then spiritual agency is ruled out. If scientists are not, even in the most rigorous of circumstances, able to detect a material agency turning the tables then that would lend a good deal of weight to the spiritist claim.

I should also point out that Allan Kardec is in the perfect position to assist in this.
Allan Kardec was talking about the scientists of the time who did not believe in the existence of spirits. but there were other scientists who believed in spirits. These believing scientists used Allan Kardec's own methodology.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:30 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Do you skeptical consider this evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1OK1ipqLHY
Again this is a contradiction. You say that the phenomenon is beyond science and then you point us to something that purports to be a scientific investigation of spirits.

Which is it?

Because it would be so easy to repeat the Scole Experiment with proper scientific controls.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:34 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Allan Kardec was talking about the scientists of the time who did not believe in the existence of spirits. but there were other scientists who believed in spirits. These believing scientists used Allan Kardec's own methodology.
I don't understand. Do you mean that a conventional scientist would not have seen the table move, but a scientist using Kardec's methodology would have seen the table move?
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:37 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I don't understand. Do you mean that a conventional scientist would not have seen the table move, but a scientist using Kardec's methodology would have seen the table move?
these people from the scole experiment did not use the scientific method of the scientific community. The scientific community does not consider this experiment true!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:38 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Again this is a contradiction. You say that the phenomenon is beyond science and then you point us to something that purports to be a scientific investigation of spirits.

Which is it?

Because it would be so easy to repeat the Scole Experiment with proper scientific controls.
these people from the scole experiment did not use the scientific method of the scientific community. The scientific community does not consider this experiment true!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:42 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Again this is a contradiction. You say that the phenomenon is beyond science and then you point us to something that purports to be a scientific investigation of spirits.

Which is it?

Because it would be so easy to repeat the Scole Experiment with proper scientific controls.
For the scientific community this experiment has no scientific value! But the existence of spirits is beyond the reach of the scientific method used by the scientific community!
what you still do not understand!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:42 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
these people from the scole experiment did not use the scientific method of the scientific community. The scientific community does not consider this experiment true!
The whole point of the Scole Experiment was to provide evidence for these phenomena according to the scientific method.

There were supposed to be proper scientific controls, but it seems that this was not actually carried out.
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Last edited by Robin; 21st August 2019 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:45 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I don't understand. Do you mean that a conventional scientist would not have seen the table move, but a scientist using Kardec's methodology would have seen the table move?
Official science doesn't care about that!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:47 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
For the scientific community this experiment has no scientific value! But the existence of spirits is beyond the reach of the scientific method used by the scientific community!
what you still do not understand!
The entire point of the experiment was to make conventional scientists take notice.

So you are saying that they are trying to convince conventional scientists using methods that they know conventional scientists will not accept?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:50 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Official science doesn't care about that!
Of course official scientists care about that.

If you could actually make an object move without any material agency making it move nearly any scientist would be fascinated.

But can you address the question? If there was a conventional scientist - say Mary - watching that table and a scientist using Kardec's method - call him Fred - then Fred would see the table spin and Mary would see no movement at all?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:50 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The entire point of the experiment was to make conventional scientists take notice.

So you are saying that they are trying to convince conventional scientists using methods that they know conventional scientists will not accept?
anyone at the time without being a scientist frequented the places where the rotating tables happened! but they could not explain how this happened!
they don't even make that attempt. the scientific community despises this subject. It would be a waste of time!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:54 PM   #472
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You say official science does not care. But one of the most prestigious Universities in the world had an entire department dedicated to investigating telekinesis for nearly 30 years. It was headed up by their professor of aerospace science.

An entire department dedicated to investigating a phenomenon for nearly 30 years. That is quite a lot of caring.

Spoiler, they didn't find any evidence of telekinesis.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:56 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
anyone at the time without being a scientist frequented the places where the rotating tables happened! but they could not explain how this happened!
they don't even make that attempt. the scientific community despises this subject. It would be a waste of time!
As I have shown that is clearly not true. Apart from the example I gave above universities throughout the world have dedicated a good deal of resources to investigating paranormal phenomena.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:57 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You say official science does not care. But one of the most prestigious Universities in the world had an entire department dedicated to investigating telekinesis for nearly 30 years. It was headed up by their professor of aerospace science.

An entire department dedicated to investigating a phenomenon for nearly 30 years. That is quite a lot of caring.

Spoiler, they didn't find any evidence of telekinesis.
read "Scientific Method and" Spiritist Science "in Portuguese, but just translate

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espiri...a_ci%C3%AAncia
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:18 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
read "Scientific Method and" Spiritist Science "in Portuguese, but just translate

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espiri...a_ci%C3%AAncia
I will if you can explain how that will address the point I just made.

You claim that official science has no interest in these areas.

I demonstrated that in fact mainstream scientific academic organisations have, for many years, dedicated quite a lot of resources to such phenomena.

So clearly official science has demonstrated quite a lot of interest in these areas.

If anyone could actually demonstrate movement of an object without material agency they would immediately have the attention of the entire scientific community.

So how does your link counter the evidence I just provided that "official science" does care about paranormal phenomena?
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:25 PM   #476
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
One day I had a lot of pain in my abdomen, my mother said a prayer and at the same moment the pain passed, that pain was caused by spirits as they told me. I'm sure it never happened to you! what's your explanation about this? I'm telling the truth !
Coming from your side of the fence I need to point out that spirits don't have that kind of power. Never did.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:55 PM   #477
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I took this picture when I visited a castle. Is this proof of the spirit world?
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:04 PM   #478
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There's no such thing as "official science". There's only science and not-science.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:13 PM   #479
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Quote:
I took this picture when I visited a castle. Is this proof of the spirit world?
Absolutely.

I can show you films I took when I was 11 of various spirit phenomena. For some strange reason, when I moved from standard 8 to super 8, I could no longer take films of ghosts.
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:29 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Absolutely.



I can show you films I took when I was 11 of various spirit phenomena. For some strange reason, when I moved from standard 8 to super 8, I could no longer take films of ghosts.


Because Super8 is harder to manipulate?
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