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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 21st August 2019, 10:32 PM   #481
Robin
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Once I actually caught on film my "Action Man" action figure getting up and walking around.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:32 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Absolutely.

I can show you films I took when I was 11 of various spirit phenomena. For some strange reason, when I moved from standard 8 to super 8, I could no longer take films of ghosts.
New camera didn't have a light leak?
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:34 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Because Super8 is harder to manipulate?
Comes in cassettes. Can't wind it back. That seems to frighten the ghosts away.

Nevertheless I did get a lot of pictures of figures slowly materialising and then slowly de-materialising on my new super 8 camera.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:35 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
New camera didn't have a light leak?
Also a factor. No strange blobs of light. Blob ghosts also appear to be frightened of film that comes in cassettes.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 10:46 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Once I actually caught on film my "Action Man" action figure getting up and walking around.
If I can get it transferred I will put this one up first. It will be one in the eye for all you "Toy Story" skeptics.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 21st August 2019, 11:54 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Here in Brazil the spiritist doctrine has millions of followers, in the United States already has many followers of the spiritist doctrine.
In the not so distant past, most of the world's population, billions of people, believed the world was flat with a big glass dome over it. So if so many people believed that, is the Earth actually flat?

NSFW
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:41 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
There are many people against these ideas.
There are many people against the idea you can fly by flapping your arms too. Darn pseudo skeptiks everywhere!
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:49 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
In official science there is no evidence ... so there is no arguing with you!
You refuse to discuss any evidence.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:50 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
no ... you just ask for scientific evidence of the existence of spirits .. I'm not a scientist or a member of the scientific community! ...
I'm asking you to discuss the evidence you've provided, but you won't.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:51 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You don't accept books as evidence of the existence of spirits ... Explain to me what kind of evidence you want? If you don't accept sites and books ... I'm not a scientist!
I've taken the time to read the books you linked to. I want to discuss them. It's you who is ignoring what the books say, and refusing to discuss them.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:56 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
This thread is moving too fast to follow well, but I will interject here, since you have noted that English is not your language, the small caution that in English the terms "Spiritism" and "Spiritualism" differ, though the first may well include the second. Spiritism, which is what you are espousing here, is a pretty specific set of ideas, while spiritualism covers a much wider set of beliefs shared by many religions, even those which are otherwise incompatible.
He kept using "spiritualism" until I pointed out that the books he linked to said that that was the wrong term, then he switched without acknowledging that he had done so.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:57 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
This is due to the spirit body or spirit's perispirit! The copy of clothing is created by the spirit automatically! That's what I read in the books I quoted here!
Can you point me to the specific page in the specific book where this claim is made?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:51 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
The evidence I have is documented and recorded in books I quoted here. but they are not considered by the skeptics of this forum.
I considered them. You have consistently and repeatedly refused to engage with me on the subject of the content of the books. Yet you're still trying to pretend that nobody has considered them.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:52 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You could read the books I quoted here, and then debate with me.
That's what you said to me. I read the books, and you refuse to debate with me. Why should JayUtah believe that it will be any different for him?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 03:05 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
One day I had a lot of pain in my abdomen, my mother said a prayer and at the same moment the pain passed, that pain was caused by spirits as they told me. I'm sure it never happened to you! what's your explanation about this? I'm telling the truth !
You know this is a testable claim, right? This can be tested scientifically.

What you do is you set up a group of people who are in pain, and you pray for some of them and don't pray for others. To eliminate bias the experiment will have to be double-blinded, but that should present no barrier to a fair set-up.

Then what you do is you see if there's any correlation between prayers being said and people's pain being reduced.

Of course, such experiments have been done, several times. You know what has been found? That intercessory prayer does not have any effect on the healing process:

https://link.springer.com/article/10...865-007-9106-7
https://link.springer.com/article/10...24796abm3201_3

There are, however, alternative explanations for your anecdote, ranging from the placebo effect to coincidence.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:31 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I understand ... this forum only accepts scientific proof ... so this kind of subject should not be discussed in a skepticism forum .. why didn't you warn me before?
In my case, I only accept posts from people who know how to post bloody paragraphs, mate. In browsing just two pages, I've seen you waffling on in short bursts like you're coming up from your own arse for air, which may actually be what you're doing, tbf. Anyway, carry on, fella.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:55 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
because the evidence of the existence of spirits will be denied, because it will undermine powerful interests! We cannot forget the politicization of science!
By what names are those powerful interests known by? Why would they politicize such science?

Last edited by Steve001; 22nd August 2019 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:56 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
This subject should not be debated in a skeptic forum. so the forum must forbid this matter of the existence of spirits!
Once again your response has nothing to do with my post.

I don't believe you're that bad at English. At this point it's clear you're just trolling.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 06:12 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
yes, pseudo-skeptics don't believe it, even in the face of evidence!
You can't say they don't when all you're really saying is that you predict they won't. A prediction, even if it later comes true, is not a statement of how things are.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 06:39 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
yes, pseudo-skeptics don't believe it, even in the face of evidence!
It would take evidence, first.

"Please read all this stuff by yourself" is not evidence. It's laziness. You have nothing.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:17 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Do you skeptical consider this evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1OK1ipqLHY

If youíre going to post videos, please also say, briefly, what you think they show.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:23 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Coming from your side of the fence I need to point out that spirits don't have that kind of power. Never did.
But as Ebeneezer Scrooge points out, spirits can do anything they like. That's the whole point of these deus ex machina attributions. It works the same with space aliens.

"The flying saucer zipped away at what must have been over 10,000 miles an hour!" Hm, but without making a single sound, you say. Sure, I can probably teach an hour-long class off the top of my head on the principles of fluid mechanics that make it impossible for a solid projectile of any shape to move that quickly in Earth's atmosphere without sonic consequences. But the answer is always the same: "You don't know what capabilities space aliens might have. Therefore you can't logically say that my interpretation is impossible."

Yes, the antecedent to that is a true premise. But I can say that it's more probable you saw a reflection of something on the glass you were looking through and mistakenly thought it was a faraway object moving fast. That fits the facts better.

The point is that the same line of ill reasoning applies here. "You can't limit what spirits can or can't do! Therefore you can't say my miraculous event wasn't the result of spiritual intervention." Again, the premise is reasonably true. Once you invoke the supernatural, it's hard to put all those worms back into an evidentiary can.

But that's the problem of this thread. I don't propose to investigate the reality of spirits or space aliens in this thread. I propose to discuss what properties any such investigation must have in order to qualify as proper skepticism. That's the topic of the thread: whether we're real skeptics or merely pseudo-skeptics pursuing a pseudo-religious agenda.

Unfortunately for claims of the supernatural, they don't become testable until we can falsify them. That is, we have to find things that we agree space aliens or spirits cannot be, so that we can determine via evidence that the spirits-did-it hypothesis must be rejected. But since that's forever open-ended, the landscape always looks like the critic having to propose and support an affirmative alternative. "Oh, you don't believe my preconceived attribution to an inscrutable anecdote? Well you have the responsibility to defend something different, then."

No, that's not how it works, which is why we reject open-ended hypotheses out of hand as testable. And yes, that's proper skepticism. Keep in mind I'm not disputing your analysis. I was never a ghost-hunter, but I worked for Josh Warren for a brief interval. It was actually quite rewarding work. But I know what you mean: in the idiom of disembodied spirits that the ghost-hunters refer to, spirits have limits. The lore has rules that improve the testability of claims made in it. But people can always say, "I don't mean those spirits; I mean this other kind of spirit that isn't bound by your rules."
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:51 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You ask for evidence or empirical evidence of the existence of spirits ... but I would have to talk to you in person ... off the internet!
What you can say in person you can say on the internet. This is just another one of your excuses.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:52 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I understand now ! Anyone can do science! unofficial science?
Can non-olympians run?

Stop being ridiculous. Anybody can do science or present evidence.

Except those who have none.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:53 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
(yawn)
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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:56 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Official science doesn't care about that!
Stop trolling. There's no such thing as official science.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:49 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I said that some members of this forum are pseudo-skeptical about the spiritist doctrine!
You have repeatedly said that your accusations of pseudo-skepticism weren't aimed at anyone on these forums.

You also said that you didn't believe in spirits anymore.

You're completely incoherent and contradict yourself on a regular basis. What on earth are you actually talking about? It's gibberish.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:57 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
One day I had a lot of pain in my abdomen, my mother said a prayer and at the same moment the pain passed, that pain was caused by spirits as THEY told me. I'm sure it never happened to you!
Who is the THEY you're referring to? I'd appreciate a simple answer to a simple question please.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:09 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
For existential propositions, a presumption of non-existence is rational. Such a proposition can be falsified with evidence, and is therefore a testable proposition. Since you seem to believe it is irrational to start out this way, please describe a better way and show that it's better.



If a particular explanation is proffered for some set of observations, is it not rational to assemble other hypotheses that also explain the observations, and then see which is best supported by evidence? Then from among all those considered, is it not rational to prefer the explanation that best satisfies the law of parsimony? If you feel this is inappropriate, can you describe a better way?



One person's "denialism" is another person's critical analysis. Very often we see that the proponent's proffered explanation is meant to be accepted simply because some other hypothesis lacks conclusive support, or as a default when all other explanations fail. What those proponents erroneously write off as "denialism" is, in those cases, a correct effort to hold the proffered explanation to the same standards of evidence as is used to reject more prosaic alternatives.

Give some examples from this forum of "denialism [cloaked] in the language of skeptical thinking" and describe what would have been a more appropriate approach.
I never said anyone on this site is a psuedo. A definition was asked for and the responce was not forthcoming, so I supplied a definition; that's all.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:52 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, that's not how it works, which is why we reject open-ended hypotheses out of hand as testable. And yes, that's proper skepticism. Keep in mind I'm not disputing your analysis. I was never a ghost-hunter, but I worked for Josh Warren for a brief interval. It was actually quite rewarding work. But I know what you mean: in the idiom of disembodied spirits that the ghost-hunters refer to, spirits have limits. The lore has rules that improve the testability of claims made in it. But people can always say, "I don't mean those spirits; I mean this other kind of spirit that isn't bound by your rules."

I agree. This is one of the many factors that forced me to change my tune, the lack of consistency. There should be consistent results to actions taken and with ghosts there are none. I could play Ricardo's game too but it only serves my ego and does nothing to advance a better understanding of the many real-world conditions which contribute to people believing they've had an encounter.

His assertion that there are things beyond science's ability to understand shows a lack of science background. He's arguing physics when he should be arguing psychiatry or neurology since that end of the science spectrum is where he'd find answers. If I have diarrhea I'm not calling a quantum physicist, I'm calling a doctor. Both are scientists but one is much better qualified to help. But that's his argument: physicists can't help me with diarrhea therefore science is limited.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:17 PM   #511
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Add in if we can trust what he has revealed he has a Christian based spiritualist faith of his own, learned from his mother.

No possible bias there to be accusing some of us of having preset, strong beliefs to protect. Just like him. Except it's not like that, he doesn't know a concept of not having any supernatural beliefs.

My mil simply could never understand how anyone could reject Christian faith and be a complete person. It had to be something just slightly less powerful and evil guiding non believers.

He also empowered himself by stating his belief in spirits somehow threatens us. Typical of swilling the poison KoolAde.

Any attempts at background into get no responses, and they all could be safely and easily answered.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:47 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Add in if we can trust what he has revealed he has a Christian based spiritualist faith of his own, learned from his mother.

No possible bias there to be accusing some of us of having preset, strong beliefs to protect. Just like him. Except it's not like that, he doesn't know a concept of not having any supernatural beliefs.

My mil simply could never understand how anyone could reject Christian faith and be a complete person. It had to be something just slightly less powerful and evil guiding non believers.

He also empowered himself by stating his belief in spirits somehow threatens us. Typical of swilling the poison KoolAde.

Any attempts at background into get no responses, and they all could be safely and easily answered.
There existed a communication disconnect from the beginning. I believe some of us have had the patience to attempt to engage him and try to understand. Yet even after telling me I was correct about something, he continued to babble and at times seemed to contradict himself. I don't know how much of the issue is his age, English not the first language, possible mental health issue, immaturity, low intelligence or other issues are at the root.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:54 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
I never said anyone on this site is a psuedo.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote:
A definition was asked for and the responce was not forthcoming, so I supplied a definition; that's all.
I noted some problems with your definition, specifically how certain things you marked as failures of skepticism were, in fact, more probably the result of good skeptical practice. For example, the presumption of non-existence as being the only epistemologically valid way to structure an existential investigation. The danger, of course, is that under such ambiguous definition as yours, someone acting in good skeptical conscience might be mistaken for a mere pseudo-skeptic. As careful as you have been to disclaim any such accusation, I assume you would not want such a characterization to arise by accident. Do you intend to address the criticism or revise your definition?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:41 PM   #514
Norman Alexander
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This really does seem to be an almost word-for-word re-run of Winston Wu from what I recall of him 15 years ago. Even down to the "mother laying on of hands" bit, only for Wu it was in Taiwan IIRC. So I suspect some skullduggery...
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Old 22nd August 2019, 03:32 PM   #515
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a spirit embodying a woman in this video! from 06:40 of the video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7FBJS1reLU
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Old 22nd August 2019, 03:44 PM   #516
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a bad spirit being kicked out of a woman! of woman the spirit incorporated into the boy in white clothing! in 10:00 minutes of the video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9E1pTT5EU
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Old 22nd August 2019, 03:54 PM   #517
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spirit embodied in the boy in white clothing! the man lying on the floor was a victim of the spirit!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlkixQ11ME0
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:18 PM   #518
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Itís just so ridiculous . . . How can anyone take any of that **** seriously. The only thing those videos are evidence of is how stupid people can be.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 08:05 PM   #519
Foolmewunz
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
This really does seem to be an almost word-for-word re-run of Winston Wu from what I recall of him 15 years ago. Even down to the "mother laying on of hands" bit, only for Wu it was in Taiwan IIRC. So I suspect some skullduggery...
Or,... they're regurgitating the old schtick that's worked on gullible followers for two hundred years. Not just by Spriticists but by religions everywhere. There are only X number of ploys available and they dredge them up as appropriate.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 09:07 PM   #520
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I opened the videos as far as seeing the initial screens but did not run them. Thanks to XJ388 and others for taking one for the team so I don't have to.
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