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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 24th August 2019, 09:14 AM   #601
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it was instantaneous the end of the pain ... with the withdrawal of the spirit ... it was not a physical cause ... it was an invisible and intelligent cause
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:16 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
You had a pain and it went away suddenly.

What does any of this have to do with spirits? Why not think it was aliens or wizards or angels or time travelling tricksters...?

You've provided exactly zero evidence that any of this has anything to do with spirits.
Why is it so hard for you to believe in spirits? please explain me?
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:16 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
This is why existential questions properly place the burden of proof upon those who assert existence.

this is a fallacy or a pseudo-skeptical argument!
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:16 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
but the pain disappeared at the time ... it was not gradual its disappearance ... I think if you had the same experience I had ... you would understand
This has nothing to do with my post. You have claimed it is possible to prove a negative proposition. I require you to demonstrate how that's done. Do it, or admit you can't.
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:18 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
it was instantaneous the end of the pain ... with the withdrawal of the spirit ... it was not a physical cause ... it was an invisible and intelligent cause
You are still not addressing why the pain, and it's sudden cessation, were necessarily caused by spirits. What lead you to believe it was that and not some other cause? Why not aliens? Government mind control experiments? Fluxion of the Ley Lines? HAARP? Hypnosis? Bad bowel of chili?

Last edited by Pope130; 24th August 2019 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
You’re not debating, you’re preaching. You have absolutely no idea what skepticism is about, you just rail against anyone who doesn’t believe in spirits and call it pseudo-skepticism because you can’t even begin to address the criticism.
see member PIXEL42 .. he's debating with respect ... do the same ok .. you know that pseudo-skepticism is no use denying ...
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Why is it so hard for you to believe in spirits? please explain me?
You didn't even attempt to answer my question. Let me ask you again. I'll put it in big bold letters so there's no confusion as to what I'm asking.

You had a pain and it went away suddenly.

What does any of this have to do with spirits? Why not think it was aliens or wizards or angels or time travelling tricksters (or any other random woo)...? Why do you believe it was spirits that cured your pain?

You've provided exactly zero evidence that any of this has anything to do with spirits.
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:22 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
magnetism drove away the spirit that was causing the pain ...
How do you know that there was a spirit causing the pain?
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:22 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Why is it so hard for you to believe in spirits?
Because you've shown no evidence that they exist. You have yet to demonstrate you know what it means to prove something. In addition, you tend to insult people who point this out to you. This illustrates how desperately you seem to want it to appear that your belief is rational.
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:23 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
One member here on the forum ... says this is psychosomatic!
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:25 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
How do you know that there was a spirit causing the pain?
because the pain disappeared on the spot ...
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:27 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
How do you know that there was a spirit causing the pain?
the end of the pain was instantaneous!
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:30 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the end of the pain was instantaneous!
That doesn't answer my question at all.

You're not explaining anything.

You just keep repeating this odd story about pain and magnets and then insisting it was spirits. And adding exclamation marks everywhere!

How do you know that the ending of your pain had anything to do with spirits?
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:37 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
That doesn't answer my question at all.

You're not explaining anything.

You just keep repeating this odd story about pain and magnets and then insisting it was spirits. And adding exclamation marks everywhere!

How do you know that the ending of your pain had anything to do with spirits?
EVERY SMART EFFECT HAS AN SMART CAUSE.
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:45 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
One member here on the forum ... says this is psychosomatic!
No, I said it was most likely psychosomatic. It could also have been, say, trapped wind, which happened to be released at the same moment some mumbo jumbo was done. Or any one of a number of other mundane causes. The point is there is no reason whatsoever to assume it was "spirits", whatever that means.
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:46 AM   #616
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The USS Utah levels a battery of 16-inch guns on a frail raft of tacked-together orange crates. A pitiful, pathetic sight.

We all love it, of course, and that's very, very wrong of us.
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Old 24th August 2019, 10:42 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
EVERY SMART EFFECT HAS AN SMART CAUSE.
You haven't shown that there was a "smart effect". And you haven't shown that there was a "smart cause". And you haven't shown that "smart cause" means "spirit".

You're begging the question, assuming the existence of spirits, and then attributing mundane things to them.

All you have is a silly anecdote about pain going away because of something something magnetism. Which for some reason you think has something to do with spirits.

Please explain properly why you think spirits were the cause of your pain. Use both sides of the paper if necessary.
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Old 24th August 2019, 10:47 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Plagiarized, as usual. Summarize the paragraph in your own words to prove you understand it and how you think it supports your claim.

You asked for empirical evidence of the non-existence of spirits. I asked you what such evidence would look like. I asked you to be specific. You have not answered me. I take it this is because you have no idea what would be needed.
YOU SAY IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE A NEGATIVE. This is a psycho-skeptical argument. Since it is possible to prove a negative. Then prove and prove that the spirits do not exist. PRESENT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT THERE IS NOT.
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Old 24th August 2019, 10:53 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
YOU SAY IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE A NEGATIVE. This is a psycho-skeptical argument. Since it is possible to prove a negative. Then prove and prove that the spirits do not exist. PRESENT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT THERE IS NOT.
The cause of your pain wasn't spirits.

It was wizards.

PRESENT EMPIRICAL PROOF THAT THERE ARE NO WIZARDS AND THAT THEY DIDN'T CAUSE YOUR PAIN!

Anyone can play this silly game. You're not arguing in good faith, this is just badly done sophistry.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:04 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
YOU SAY IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE A NEGATIVE.
Yes. And there's no need to shout. It only shows how desperate you have become.

Quote:
This is a psycho-skeptical argument.
No, it's a foundational concept in empirical epistemology. You hastily Googled up something that you believe supports your point. But they are not your words, and you cannot summarize them in your own words. You cannot demonstrate that you understand this debate. You are just hurling things out there, cargo-cult fashion, in hopes that they stick. Good thing real skeptics are well attuned to such dishonest stunts.

Quote:
Since it is possible to prove a negative.
You have not shown this. Your quote doesn't say it's possible to prove a negative such as you're demanding. In fact, it rather supports your critics when it says that reasonable credence in the negative of some affirmed proposition can be built by exactly the methods your critics have applied.

See, that's what it means to summarize a thing in your own words.

Quote:
Then prove and prove that the spirits do not exist. PRESENT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT THERE IS NOT.
More shouting. I must really be touching a nerve. Calm down before you post your next post.

Despite all your frantic Googling, you still cannot answer me the simple question of what the empirical evidence you're asking for would look like. You can't answer it because you don't know. You can't tell the world what empirical evidence for the absence of spirits would look like. Until you can describe in advance exactly what you're looking for, your critics are under no obligation to indulge your tantrums.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:22 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
The cause of your pain wasn't spirits.

It was wizards.

PRESENT EMPIRICAL PROOF THAT THERE ARE NO WIZARDS AND THAT THEY DIDN'T CAUSE YOUR PAIN!
Indeed, I second this. Ricardo, this will be an excellent way to show how your version of real skepticism works, instead of the psuedo-skepticism you say your critics practice. Since you insist it's possible to prove a negative existential proposition empirically, why don't you show up all your critics by demonstrating here and now how to do it. Provide empirical proof that wizards don't exist and can't have caused your pain. Once you've done that, you will have some basis to demand your critics shoulder an equivalent burden of proof on your behalf.

Quote:
Anyone can play this silly game.
And most claimants do.

Quote:
You're not arguing in good faith, this is just badly done sophistry.
I really don't see how claimants of Ricardo's ilk can't appreciate that their critics can easily see through these stunts. Maybe he really does think he's making a clever, correct argument.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:27 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, I second this. Ricardo, this will be an excellent way to show how your version of real skepticism works, instead of the psuedo-skepticism you say your critics practice. Since you insist it's possible to prove a negative existential proposition empirically, why don't you show up all your critics by demonstrating here and now how to do it. Provide empirical proof that wizards don't exist and can't have caused your pain. Once you've done that, you will have some basis to demand your critics shoulder an equivalent burden of proof on your behalf.



And most claimants do.



I really don't see how claimants of Ricardo's ilk can't appreciate that their critics can easily see through these stunts. Maybe he really does think he's making a clever, correct argument.
so in your opinion. what could be the cause of the pain? answer without mocking!
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:32 AM   #623
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Spirits are ok, but I prefer wine.

Ok, I expect that's already been done way upthread.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:35 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes. And there's no need to shout. It only shows how desperate you have become.



No, it's a foundational concept in empirical epistemology. You hastily Googled up something that you believe supports your point. But they are not your words, and you cannot summarize them in your own words. You cannot demonstrate that you understand this debate. You are just hurling things out there, cargo-cult fashion, in hopes that they stick. Good thing real skeptics are well attuned to such dishonest stunts.



You have not shown this. Your quote doesn't say it's possible to prove a negative such as you're demanding. In fact, it rather supports your critics when it says that reasonable credence in the negative of some affirmed proposition can be built by exactly the methods your critics have applied.

See, that's what it means to summarize a thing in your own words.



More shouting. I must really be touching a nerve. Calm down before you post your next post.

Despite all your frantic Googling, you still cannot answer me the simple question of what the empirical evidence you're asking for would look like. You can't answer it because you don't know. You can't tell the world what empirical evidence for the absence of spirits would look like. Until you can describe in advance exactly what you're looking for, your critics are under no obligation to indulge your tantrums.
"You can't tell the world what empirical evidence for the absence of spirits" maybe I can't yet. but there are people who can, people like philosopher Steven Hales! And why don't you prove that you can't prove a negative?
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:35 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so in your opinion. what could be the cause of the pain? answer without mocking!
Prove that mockery is not an appropriate response to your sad and dishonest attempts at reasoning. I asked you to demonstrate how to prove a negative proposition empirically, and you simply (once again) reversed the burden of proof.

Will you prove empirically that wizards don't exist? Yes or no.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:41 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
maybe I can't yet.
Then I submit you cannot know whether it can be done.

Quote:
but there are people who can, people like philosopher Steven Hales!
You were invited to demonstrate that you understood what Mr Hales said. You did not, and I submit that you have no idea what that passage you stole means. Mr Hales says there is a class of negative propositions that can be proven. If you believe yours is among that class, you must show how. Hales does not say in the least that any arbitrary negative proposition can be proven. Quite the opposite.

Quote:
And why don't you prove that you can't prove a negative?
Do you have any argument at all that doesn't boil down to a knee-jerk reversal of the burden of proof?

You claimed it could be done. I challenged you to demonstrate how. You admit now that you don't know. I call fraud on you.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:47 AM   #627
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The burden of proof is yours.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:47 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
The burden of proof is yours.
No.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:53 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Then I submit you cannot know whether it can be done.



You were invited to demonstrate that you understood what Mr Hales said. You did not, and I submit that you have no idea what that passage you stole means. Mr Hales says there is a class of negative propositions that can be proven. If you believe yours is among that class, you must show how. Hales does not say in the least that any arbitrary negative proposition can be proven. Quite the opposite.



Do you have any argument at all that doesn't boil down to a knee-jerk reversal of the burden of proof?

You claimed it could be done. I challenged you to demonstrate how. You admit now that you don't know. I call fraud on you.
Its pseudo-skeptical fallacies have no effect. I think you must have a dislike for Marcelo Truzzi!
You still don't understand that!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:53 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
"You can't tell the world what empirical evidence for the absence of spirits" maybe I can't yet. but there are people who can, people like philosopher Steven Hales! And why don't you prove that you can't prove a negative?
You've backed yourself into yet another corner with this canard. You're trying to argue science with a philosophical point. This is why you lose.

You chose to believe in spirits? Fine, go about your business. But you can't wander in here and start threads claiming that science lacks the foundation to prove the existence of spirits and then start another thread attacking skeptics for not being what you think "real skeptics" should be. Your character flaw is that you can't separate fact from faith as if one is dependent on the other. Spoiler Alert: They're not dependent on each other. If you're faith in the existence of spirits was real you wouldn't be here launching bad arguments.

The fact is you don't believe in spirits, not entirely, and you come here looking to start a fight for some reason. This allows you to fool yourself into thinking you believe because you're fighting the good fight when you should actually roll up your sleeves and do some real world work with a skeptical eye. I won't hold my breath.

I've done the work. Almost every fantastic thing I've ever seen or experienced had a real, non-paranormal explanation. The few things I can't explain I have faith will be explained eventually.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:55 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
The burden of proof is yours.
The burden of proof is always on the person making the positive claim. If someone claims there is a teapot in orbit around Mars (to use Bertrand Russell's famous example) then the burden of proof is on them, it is not on me to disprove that claim. Unless they can provide evidence that there is a teapot in orbit around Mars I can justifiably assume that no such teapot exists.

You are the one making the positive claim that spirits exist, therefore the burden of proof is squarely on you. If you cannot provide evidence for your claim then I can, and will, reject it.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:57 AM   #632
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Come on, Ricardo. I'm daring you, against the specter of continued mockery, to show us how to prove a negative proposition empirically. You say it can be done. You say your quote by Mr Hales authorizes it. He gives a bit of detail to clarify what he means. This is your chance to show up your critics and demonstrate that they really do fail at skepticism. It's your chance to apply Mr Hales' method to the toy problem of disproving the existence of wizards and show both that you understand what he's talking about and that what you claim on his authority is actual fact.

See, you may not appreciate that everyone can see you're bluffing. Having carefully avoided all obligation on your part to prove anything whatsoever you've said, you think the reader will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that your critics are abrogating some important burden of proof. But the world is not that stupid. There are just as many people saying to themselves, "Of course you can't prove a negative. Who does that Ricardo guy think he is?" And those are the people who will be swayed only by an actual demonstration by you of what you say can be done.

I'm calling your bluff. Put up or shut up. Use Mr Hales' method to show empirically that wizards don't exist. Fail, and little is left but to continue to mock your naked, unproven assertions.
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:58 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Its pseudo-skeptical fallacies have no effect. I think you must have a dislike for Marcelo Truzzi!
You still don't understand that!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism
That has nothing to do with my post. You have made yet another assertion that you admit you cannot know is true. Therefore your argument is a fraud. None of that is aided by your continuing to call people names.
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:09 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That has nothing to do with my post. You have made yet another assertion that you admit you cannot know is true. Therefore your argument is a fraud. None of that is aided by your continuing to call people names.
I had another experience with the existence of spirits ... a friend about ten years ago was a victim of homicide ... here in Brazil there are Spiritist Centers ... two months later I went to a Center ... and through a woman medium the spirit of this friend manifested and said something that only I knew ... I'm sure you never had this kind of experience ... so it's hard for you to understand me!
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:11 PM   #635
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you should research this ... don't be prejudiced!
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:13 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I had another experience with the existence of spirits ... a friend about ten years ago was a victim of homicide ... here in Brazil there are Spiritist Centers ... two months later I went to a Center ... and through a woman medium the spirit of this friend manifested and said something that only I knew ... I'm sure you never had this kind of experience ... so it's hard for you to understand me!
None of this has anything to do with your claim to be able to prove a negative proposition empirically. Quit trying to change the subject. Either do as you claim can be done, or admit that it can't.
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:16 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
you should research this ... don't be prejudiced!
No one is prejudiced. You were invited to present evidence to convince critics that your claims were true. You failed to do that. Then you started calling them names and otherwise insulting them. You do not stand on the high moral ground here.

Further, what makes you think your critics here have not already researched countless claims of supernatural phenomena? You have little respect for your critics. You call them immature because they don't immediately accept your explanations for things. Until you stop heaping undeserved disrespect on your critics you can expect little more than continued mockery.
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:18 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I had another experience with the existence of spirits ... a friend about ten years ago was a victim of homicide ... here in Brazil there are Spiritist Centers ... two months later I went to a Center ... and through a woman medium the spirit of this friend manifested and said something that only I knew ... I'm sure you never had this kind of experience ... so it's hard for you to understand me!
Do tell us more of this event, like the details of what only you knew.

I have told stories of my own on this forum about messages I have received.

You will find that if you give details the people of this forum will undoubtedly supply alternative explanations other than it being from a spirit.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:20 PM   #639
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I had another experience with the existence of spirits ... a friend about ten years ago was a victim of homicide ... here in Brazil there are Spiritist Centers ... two months later I went to a Center ... and through a woman medium the spirit of this friend manifested and said something that only I knew ... I'm sure you never had this kind of experience ... so it's hard for you to understand me!
Sceptics have often had such experiences, they're fairly common. They just have the necessary knowledge and critical thinking skills to analyse and explain them without resorting to superstition.
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:22 PM   #640
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I had another experience with the existence of spirits
There is already a thread in the Religion section for you to describe your supernatural experiences and prove them if you can. This is the thread where you have accused your critics of being only pseudo-skeptics -- i.e., of using improper tactics and techniques to challenge your claims made elsewhere.

As one of the accused, I demand you keep your "proof of spirits" discussion where it belongs and focus on providing me the evidence I have asked for. You have claimed on the basis of a philosopher you have probably never heard of before today that you can prove a negative proposition empirically. You say that since this can be done, your critics have that burden of proof to satisfy in order not to be written off as pseudo-skeptics.

I have challenged you to demonstrate what you say is possible. Please either fulfill that challenge or admit that you cannot.
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