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Tags dark matter , quantum , quantum mechanics , tunnel

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Old 12th September 2019, 04:44 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
You derive it from the wave function because it has to be a wave while traveling. No need to know that it could have been physical if it was observed.

You wouldn't have probabilities if it was observed.
As I said:

The wave function relies on both particle and wave properties. It also depends upon the uncertainty principle.

So if you killed those you killed the wave function.

So you can't use that.

So how do you do it without the wave function?
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:47 PM   #562
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Where does the wave function need something to be physical? If it ever does, it is just because the unobservable wave holds the variables of what the wave represents.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:51 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Where does the wave function need something to be physical? If it ever does, it is just because the unobservable wave holds the variables of what the wave represents.
You cannot derive a wave function for anything without referring to both wave and particle properties. What did you think duality is?

The wave function also relies on the uncertainty principle.

So if you have killed duality and killed the uncertainty principle then you have killed the wave function.

So go ahead and describe the way you would calculate those probabilities without the wave function. You might say "path integrals", but that also relies on both these things.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:53 PM   #564
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I just explained how I didn't kill the wave function. Read it again.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:54 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I just explained how I didn't kill the wave function. Read it again.
So you are saying that you have a version of the wave function that can be derived without referring to particle properties?
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:56 PM   #566
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the properties are the information variables that make up the wave itself
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:56 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Where does the wave function need something to be physical? ....
The wave function itself is a mathematical object in the mathematics of QM. It is the interpretation of quantum mechanics used that assigns whether the wave function is really exists (is physical) or not. The Copenhagen interpretation which is the one generally taught has a non-physical wave function. The Many-worlds interpretation has a physical wave function. The Quantum logic interpretation does not care.

The rest of the post is word salad unrelated to the wave function.

Last edited by Reality Check; 12th September 2019 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:00 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
the properties are the information variables that make up the wave itself
Particle properties.

So you are agreeing that you cannot derive the wave function without using both wave and particle properties, right?

What did you think wave/particle duality meant?

Are you telling me that we have gone 15 pages and it turns out that you have not even bothered to find out what wave/particle duality means?

Wait ... why does that surprise me?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:01 PM   #569
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lol, I'm saying it's never physical ..until it's death
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:06 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
lol, I'm saying it's never physical ..until it's death
Again with the evasive bluster. I asked if you agreed that the wave function could not be derived without reference to both wave and particle properties.

And I asked what you though wave/particle duality meant.
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Last edited by Robin; 12th September 2019 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:08 PM   #571
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Thumbs down "waves working with the wave function" ignorance

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Waves are allowed to be waves and work with the wave function.....
13 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: "waves working with the wave function" ignorance.
There are no waves in or "working with" the wave function !

It is the other way around if anything. For example, solutions of the Schrodinger equation give wave functions with wave-like properties. A free particle gives a wave function that is a wave packet. A bound particle gives a wave function that is a 3D spherical function.

Last edited by Reality Check; 12th September 2019 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:09 PM   #572
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You are not getting that physicality is the key. Duality is assumed to be physical and wave.

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 12th September 2019 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:12 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
You not getting that physicality is the key. Duality is assumed to be physical and wave.
Can I get a cite of who gave you this peculiar definition of wave/particle duality?

Hint, it is called "wave/particle" duality, not "wave/physical" duality.

As I pointed out a while back, you are using this term "physical" without having any idea what you mean by it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:14 PM   #574
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Physical: structure, 3D, more than just information ..real to us.

Trust me, every loser on this site but you thinks it's both

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 12th September 2019 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:18 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Physical: structure, 3D, more than just information ..real to us.
A quantum wave has structure. It is defined in three dimensions.

Quantum waves are real to us. Have you ever seen a rainbow?
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Last edited by Robin; 12th September 2019 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:21 PM   #576
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rainbows are not unobserved

anything unobserved that is quantum sized might as well be called a ghost.

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 12th September 2019 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:22 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
rainbows are not unobserved
There you go. Quantum waves are real to us.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:23 PM   #578
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I have seen more rainbows than I have seen electrons.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:24 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
rainbows are not unobserved

anything unobserved that is quantum sized might as well be called a ghost.
Do you agree that quantum waves have structure and that they are three dimensional?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:27 PM   #580
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no, they have the data to be 3d if they are observed. If they had structure, they would never tunnel or fit in in holes that are smaller than their size.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:28 PM   #581
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Thumbs down More "derive it from the wave function..." ignorance of physics (and English).

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
You derive it from the wave function because it has to be a wave while traveling. ...
13 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: More "derive it from the wave function..." ignorance of physics (and English).

The question was about his theory: "So how do you derive the probability that a particle will arrive at a particular location on the back panel?". His theory has no wave equation!

His ignorance of physics is that the wave function in QM has no waves ! The wave function describes a system of particles. It takes the position or momentum of each particle and maps this to a complex number. The Schrödinger equation behaves like a wave equation which is why the function in it is called a "wave function".

The probability in non-relativistic QM (not his fantasy) comes from the Born interpretation of the squared modulus of the wave function being a probability of finding a particle in a given position or with a given momentum.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:33 PM   #582
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Thumbs down Meaningless word salad about imaginary? "information variables" making up a wave

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
the properties are the information variables that make up the wave itself
13 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Meaningless word salad about imaginary? "information variables" making up a wave.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:33 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
no, they have the data to be 3d if they are observed. If they had structure, they would never tunnel or fit in in holes that are smaller than their size.
Why not?

Could such things be described using mathematics?

And again, where did you get this idea of "wave/physical" duality? I have never heard of that.

It is wave/particle duality.

If you have killed wave/physical duality then fine, it never existed as far as I know.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:36 PM   #584
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I've literally spent 5 years trying to convince the internet that waves are not physical.

Why not? When is the last time a physical observed quantum object went through a wall?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:38 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I've literally spent 5 years trying to convince the internet that waves are not physical.

Why not? When is the last time a physical observed quantum object went through a wall?
Often when you are trying to convince others of something, it helps that you sort out in your own mind what you mean by it.

Never mind. Can we now agree that your thesis depends upon the propositions "waves are not physical but particles are"?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:40 PM   #586
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gladly
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:43 PM   #587
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Thumbs down "Duality is assumed to be physical and wave" lie

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Duality is assumed to be physical and wave.
13 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: "Duality is assumed to be physical and wave" lie.

It is a lie that wave-particle duality is assumed when wave-particle duality is derived and observed. For example, Einstein in 1905 showed that the photoelectric effect from electromagnetic waves was explained by these waves being particles. Later we found that electrons with their particle properties underwent diffraction, i.e. acted as waves. Currently entire molecules show wave properties. That is called wave-particle duality.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:44 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
gladly
So, before you can kill these things, we have to agree for "waves are not physical and particles are physical" to be added to quantum physics. Right?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:45 PM   #589
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In other words you can kill duality just as long as you can get physicists to change what they mean by "duality".
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:45 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Physical:...
Gibberish about the meaning of physical rather than consulting a dictionary, e.g. Definition of 'physical'
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:48 PM   #591
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When you saw an electron, what did it look like? How big was it?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:49 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I've literally spent 5 years trying to convince the internet that waves are not physical.
Why do you think you've had such trouble?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:51 PM   #593
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I'm not making my struggle up https://www.thenakedscientists.com/f...7198#msg577198
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:52 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
In other words you can kill duality just as long as you can get physicists to change what they mean by "duality".
Yes, I will spare its life
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:53 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I absolutely believe that you're not making it up. I'm certain that you've spent five years on the Internet trying to convince people that you're right.

Why do you think you haven't succeeded in all this time?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:53 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I've literally spent 5 years trying to convince the internet that waves are not physical.

Why not? When is the last time a physical observed quantum object went through a wall?
Judging by the track record of 5 years of failure, there is no dunce cap in RC's future.

Using the same metric, an orthopedic hat may be in your future.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:55 PM   #597
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I absolutely believe that you're not making it up. I'm certain that you've spent five years on the Internet trying to convince people that you're right.

Why do you think you haven't succeeded in all this time?
I take it you want to rain on my parade? You want to claim physicality for waves? Go ahead, I was expecting it from one of you.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:56 PM   #598
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Yes, I will spare its life
But you need to convince scientists to change what they mean by "duality" before you can kill it.

They don't mean what you mean by the word.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:57 PM   #599
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I take it you want to rain on my parade? You want to claim physicality for waves? Go ahead, I was expecting it from one of you.
I don't want to rain on your parade. I want you to tell my why you think you haven't convinced even a single person in 5 years.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:57 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
When you saw an electron, what did it look like? How big was it?
Any answer on this?
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