ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags dark matter , quantum , quantum mechanics , tunnel

Reply
Old 15th February 2020, 02:22 AM   #2361
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6,009
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Everything you have said has been completely useless and unhelpful.
Oh, the irony ...
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 08:05 AM   #2362
pittsburghjoe
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
The answer seems to be that the wave function was never involved. If a particle is going to be physical, it will be so from start to finish. A classical state.

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 15th February 2020 at 09:20 AM.
pittsburghjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 09:02 AM   #2363
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,236
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The answer seems to be that the wave function math was never involved.
FTFY.
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 09:04 AM   #2364
pittsburghjoe
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
Did you read this? http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2318

https://imgur.com/yBUX2DS


https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/classical+state

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 15th February 2020 at 09:12 AM.
pittsburghjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 09:29 AM   #2365
pittsburghjoe
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
or is duality a Density Matrix? (mixed states)

https://imgur.com/NYrW0KS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Densit...time_evolution

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 15th February 2020 at 09:48 AM.
pittsburghjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 12:45 PM   #2366
pittsburghjoe
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
It is either a particle Or a wave, not both at the same time. The quantum field does still have the power to make it ageless and wobble when a particle. Duality is dead! Look at the title of this thread
pittsburghjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2020, 11:03 PM   #2367
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,236
Sorry, but I'd rather look at the evidence.
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 11:55 AM   #2368
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,337
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Sorry, but I'd rather look at the evidence.
Looks like Joe won't be able to present you with any. Although he's just had a sockpuppet banned at CQ so we might see him here again.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 12:39 PM   #2369
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,734
Dammit. He almost had me convinced that uneducated proclamations were better than science and math.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 12:52 PM   #2370
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,955
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Looks like Joe won't be able to present you with any. Although he's just had a sockpuppet banned at CQ so we might see him here again.
Shouldn’t have too much trouble identifying him.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 03:31 PM   #2371
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 27,412
Thumbs down Usual lies about the double slit experiment, etc.

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Nope, there are cases for it to only be a wave.....
17 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: Usual lies about the double slit experiment and what he wrote.

His last delusion was "Duality at all stages of a particles life is a misconception." This is obviously a ignorant delusion because no experiment that does that. what we have is the experimental fact that whenever a double slit experiment is done wave/particle duality is seen. That covers all of the "stages of a particles life" - emission, flight, and absorption.

Next:
17 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: "The answer seems to be that the wave function was never involved." insanity .
A wave function in quantum physics is a mathematical description of the quantum state of an isolated quantum system.

17 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: "Did you read this?" idiocy linking to one of his posts of deluded gibberish, stupidity of an irrelevant quantum computing image and an irrelevant classical state page.

17 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: "or is duality a Density Matrix? (mixed states)" insanity.
Insane because Google and Wikipedia exist. Wave–particle duality. Density matrix

17 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: "It is either a particle Or a wave, not both at the same time. ..." lie and gibberish.
A point of the double slit experiment (especially single particle) is that the particles act as both waves and particles depending on the measurements taken. No which-path information (which slit) = waves. Measure which-path information and the same particles act as particles!
Another example is the electrons in atoms. They have the properties of quantum particles - mass, charge, spin. But their location has the same electrons acting as waves.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 03:34 PM   #2372
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 27,412
Exclamation 459 items of ignorance, fantasy, delusion, by pittsburghjoe since 4 September 2019

450 items of ignorance, fantasy, delusion, by pittsburghjoe since 4 September 2019

14 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: A demented "Do we have proof decohered condenced wave packets are still waves?" question.
14 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: Lies about my posts which are useful and helpful.
14 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: The "wave is not a wave" insanity for a wave rather than a wave packet.
14 February 2020 pittsburghjoe: Usual ignorant delusion about wave-particle duality.
Usual lies about the double slit experiment, etc. (5 items)
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 04:18 PM   #2373
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,106
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The Observer Effect

The unobserved quantum realm doesn't care about time or distance so the order goes something like this:
  1. quantum field excitation of a new particle is about to happen
  2. it gets assigned a path in the quantum field
  3. if the path contains a spacetime enactor (a detector), it swaps the particle to physical
  4. the particle or wave is sent via the quantum field if it's a wave / spacetime if physical


Uncertainty

Delta x Delta p = h-bar/2

There isn't a problem with position and momentum when the object is physical and not a quantum wave. The Uncertainty Principle is for waves.

Duality isn't a thing anymore. You may think you have evidence of a particle acting as a wave at the same time ..but you don't. You are assuming they are both at the same time because you are not taking observation into account. You wouldn't catch a quantum wave being a wave before it went through a detector (that it was moving towards). The particle is likely pre-set to be physical or a wave before it starts moving. Observation gives one type of result ..a physical one. (unless you messing around with polarizers) .

They key to killing duality is pointing out that the final panel of an experiment doesn't count as observation. When you say you can measure wave-like properties, it is derived from that final panel. If quantum observation doesn't show wave-like properties, duality at the same time falls apart. Quantum observation is only for detectors in the path of a particle that allows the particle to continue on.

People say uncertainty applies to physical objects because you peg an electron with a photon so its momentum changes ..well, duh, two objects just hit each other.

You can be certain that the particle in question will be physical if you place anything that will acknowledge its existence while it propagates on its path. That's what observation is, acknowledging a particle while it's moving from a to b. The delayed choice quantum eraser shows us that the entire life of both entangled particles is known. The first particle knows if the partner will ever be observed while in flight. Time in flight is not a factor for the state a particle will be from start to finish.


The realms of the Observed vs Unobserved

This post predicts what happens when Spacetime gets involved with unobserved quantum waves from the act of observation.
Mod Warning<SNIP> for rule 4
Please do not post material that is available elsewhere.

See here, for example.
Posted By:zooterkin
Good!

That stupid, idiotic, lying troll who called himself 'pittsburghjoe' finally managed to get himself banned from the Forum.

It is always so nice when POS individuals like him finally get themselves flushed.
__________________
On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 05:10 AM   #2374
tusenfem
Master Poster
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Good!

That stupid, idiotic, lying troll who called himself 'pittsburghjoe' finally managed to get himself banned from the Forum.

It is always so nice when POS individuals like him finally get themselves flushed.
Oh, he will be back, we killed at least 4 sock puppets of his at CQ.
__________________
20 minutes into the future
This message is bra-bra-brought to you by z-z-z-zik zak
And-And-And I'm going to be back with you - on Network 23 after these real-real-real-really exciting messages

(Max Headroom)
follow me on twitter: @tusenfem, or follow Rosetta Plasma Consortium: @Rosetta_RPC
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 06:19 PM   #2375
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,236
Four? Sheeze, what a "quote" winner "unquote".
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 09:05 PM   #2376
pzkpfw
New Blood
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 21
He's had more than 4 at scienceforums.net; not always banned, he sometimes just goes away for a bit then comes back with a new name and pretends his ideas are fresh.

Pretty sure this is his latest there: ht tps://ww w.scienceforums.net/topic/121329-i-need-help-with-math-for-my-attempt-at-an-interpreation/

Also seen him at naked scientists (which is very loosely moderated) and scienceforums.com (which is pretty dire, but where he's mostly ignored). The cranks are sure of their ideas, so keep searching for support, rather than learning.
pzkpfw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 01:40 AM   #2377
tusenfem
Master Poster
 
tusenfem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
He's had more than 4 at scienceforums.net; not always banned, he sometimes just goes away for a bit then comes back with a new name and pretends his ideas are fresh.

Pretty sure this is his latest there: ht tps://ww w.scienceforums.net/topic/121329-i-need-help-with-math-for-my-attempt-at-an-interpreation/

Also seen him at naked scientists (which is very loosely moderated) and scienceforums.com (which is pretty dire, but where he's mostly ignored). The cranks are sure of their ideas, so keep searching for support, rather than learning.
Oh my, that reads very familiarly ...
__________________
20 minutes into the future
This message is bra-bra-brought to you by z-z-z-zik zak
And-And-And I'm going to be back with you - on Network 23 after these real-real-real-really exciting messages

(Max Headroom)
follow me on twitter: @tusenfem, or follow Rosetta Plasma Consortium: @Rosetta_RPC
tusenfem is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #2378
hecd2
Muse
 
hecd2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 754
Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
He's had more than 4 at scienceforums.net; not always banned, he sometimes just goes away for a bit then comes back with a new name and pretends his ideas are fresh.

Pretty sure this is his latest there: ht tps://ww w.scienceforums.net/topic/121329-i-need-help-with-math-for-my-attempt-at-an-interpreation/
Actually I think this is him https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/...upported-math/
hecd2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 07:45 PM   #2379
pzkpfw
New Blood
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by hecd2 View Post
Actually I think this is him ...
"actually"?

He's lots of people.

(It seems both of those recent socks have been removed from there.)

Last edited by pzkpfw; 18th February 2020 at 07:53 PM.
pzkpfw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2020, 06:35 PM   #2380
WhatRoughBeast
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
It is either a particle Or a wave, not both at the same time. The quantum field does still have the power to make it ageless and wobble when a particle. Duality is dead! Look at the title of this thread
This is, admittedly, flogging a dead horse, or at least a banned one, but I found the confusion shown here to be instructive.

It's true that a photon, or any other object, is not "both at the same time". Er, well, not exactly. Any such object is what it is, and depending on how you interact with it, can behave either like a wave or a particle,and sometimes like both. The distinction is not as clear and absolute as people like Joe would like to think.

Take an electron, for example. Clearly a particle, right? Except that, at the right scale, it can simultaneously behave like both a wave and a particle. Aim a beam of electrons at a tilted single-crystal nickle surface, and it scatters just like a wave does on a diffraction grating. So it's a wave. But each electron can be detected discretely, so it's a particle.

It's amazing how the particle/wave duality wars break out in obscure corners of the field. You'd think that the last 50 years never happened.
WhatRoughBeast is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:12 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.