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Old 12th February 2019, 09:29 PM   #721
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Not to mention various power-dense industrial needs, like smelting as a prime example. Solar just doesn't provide the power density required.
Answered in the the Green New Deal thread

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Old 12th February 2019, 10:14 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Not to mention various power-dense industrial needs, like smelting as a prime example. Solar just doesn't provide the power density required.
No idea if its enough for a steel works. I can only assume that power intensive industry would in the future have to have their own localized power supply (at least for the local area that includes the heavy industry - the most desirable location of said heavy industry maybe a factor)

Is there a way to get solar energy at night

Quote:
The field of solar collectors at Andasol 1 is big enough to collect almost twice as much sunlight as the plant needs to operate during sunny times. The extra heated oil is sent to a heat exchanger running between giant vats of molten salt. One vat holds relatively cool molten salt (about 500 degrees F or 260 degrees C). That salt is pumped into the heat exchanger, where it picks up heat from the oil. The now hotter molten salt (752 degrees F or 400 degrees C) flows into the second vat, where it waits until the sun dips behind a cloud.

When the power plant needs the stored heat, the hotter molten salt is pumped back through the heat exchanger. There, it transfers its heat to the oil that will generate steam. The hotter oil travels to the power center, and the now-cooler molten salt flows back into the cooler tank. The process then starts all over.

Using salt to store the sun's heat, the plant can operate without sunlight, running almost twice as long as other solar power plants. The salt-storage setup lets Andasol 1 generate 50 percent more energy than it would without it -- 178,000 megawatt-hours of electricity [source: Fairly]. That extra generating ability lowers the overall cost of the plant's electricity. It could eventually rival the cost of natural-gas power.

This type of salt storage isn't the only design on the table for storing the sun's energy. Some plants are looking at using a more direct approach that skips the oil -- they would both collect and store the sun's heat in salt. Sand is another potential heat-storage material.

And another group has developed a system that mimics the molecular effects of photosynthesis to store solar power: It uses sunlight to split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen, which are then put back together in a fuel cell.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:51 PM   #723
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Continent-wide, mixed renewables, provide more robustness than any single source, and there are already some energy storage methods, which will also be needed.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:05 AM   #724
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Also, high speed trains can already reach 300mph, and commercially operate at 268mph.

That puts many US cities within a reasonable time connection, especially if they have stations in the city centre, as opposed to out of town airports.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:57 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Also, high speed trains can already reach 300mph, and commercially operate at 268mph.

That puts many US cities within a reasonable time connection, especially if they have stations in the city centre, as opposed to out of town airports.
Yeah but, trains? Trains are an affront to our personal freedoms. Liberals want trains because they envisage a future where people are not permitted to drive where and when they want, and we are all so poor that nobody can afford to own a motor vehicle anyway.

What we need are better roads with no speed limits, so we can drive our SUVs at 300mph.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:06 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Yeah but, trains? Trains are an affront to our personal freedoms. Liberals want trains because they envisage a future where people are not permitted to drive where and when they want, and we are all so poor that nobody can afford to own a motor vehicle anyway.

What we need are better roads with no speed limits, so we can drive our SUVs at 300mph.
/has flashbacks to alt.pave.the.earth
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:25 AM   #727
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Why so many lefties love rail so much I do not know. Sure the operating costs are pretty low in especially the carbon footprint. On the other hand, the infrastructure costs are enormous. We would need to create an entirely new set of tracks criss crossing America to make this work. Whats the environmental impact of that? Its worth noting that even utopian CA has given up on their dream. They'll now have a medium speed train between two cities nobody wants to go to.

The locations it makes the most sense are between the dense urban areas in the north east. Where the costs of construction will be even higher. Good luck running a new rail line into the already dense city centers of NY, Chicago et al. Sure it can be done but, engineers can do almost anything with enough time, money, and political will.

Last edited by ahhell; 13th February 2019 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:57 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is night going to disappear in the future? Clouds? You can't assume that batteries can supply hundreds of millions of people with electricity for a couple of days, and no one wants to lower their quality of life. Solar's fine, but not on its own. You're still going to need some sort of bedrock power plant that doesn't turn off because the sun is on the other side of the planet or because it's too windy or not enough.

No one wants to lower their quality of life, but that's what's going to happen. (Heck, it's what's been happening in the U.S. for decades, if you look past gadget technology at core measures such as the hours of work at median wages needed to afford education or housing.) You can work toward making the best of it, or you can refuse to accept the possibility and run everything into the ground (or over the aforementioned cliff) trying to maintain the status quo.

What's going to replace most air travel isn't "something almost as fast, maybe high-speed trains." It's going to be regular trains that aren't nearly as fast, along with most people not expecting to travel between cities thousands of miles apart in a few hours any more.

Batteries or other power storage methods can keep some lights, a video screen, and an Internet connection on at night. And maybe your fridge and freezer running, if they're efficient designs and you use them carefully. That's a whole lot better than not having those things, even though it's not as nice as being able to keep your washing machine and air conditioner and three kilowatts of decorative "landscape lighting" running all night.
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Old 13th February 2019, 08:18 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No one wants to lower their quality of life, but that's what's going to happen.
But there's a difference between accepting it, and not having a choice. No one's going to support going full solar because the quality of life will go down dramatically. There are alternatives that don't have this downside, and we'll have to accept those alternatives when it becomes clear that it's the only choice. Otherwise what you describe will happen, but it won't be what people will have expected.

Quote:
What's going to replace most air travel isn't "something almost as fast, maybe high-speed trains." It's going to be regular trains that aren't nearly as fast, along with most people not expecting to travel between cities thousands of miles apart in a few hours any more.
Why would you even replace air travel? It works fine now. If we switch cars to mostly electric or hybrid, and remove coal-fired plants, most of the problem is solved already.

Quote:
Batteries or other power storage methods can keep some lights, a video screen, and an Internet connection on at night. And maybe your fridge and freezer running, if they're efficient designs and you use them carefully.
And what about your AC or heater? Those tend to eat up a LOT of MWs.
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Old 13th February 2019, 11:13 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Why so many lefties love rail so much I do not know. Sure the operating costs are pretty low in especially the carbon footprint. On the other hand, the infrastructure costs are enormous. We would need to create an entirely new set of tracks criss crossing America to make this work. Whats the environmental impact of that? Its worth noting that even utopian CA has given up on their dream. They'll now have a medium speed train between two cities nobody wants to go to.

The locations it makes the most sense are between the dense urban areas in the north east. Where the costs of construction will be even higher. Good luck running a new rail line into the already dense city centers of NY, Chicago et al. Sure it can be done but, engineers can do almost anything with enough time, money, and political will.
The constant efforts to tear up track and NIMBY the placement of any more does restrict the effectiveness of rail, I suppose. It's hardly a 'lefty' issue when trains have supported human civilization for far longer than cars. Are you also upset about Eisenhower pushing for a road network in 1956? That had a huge environmental impact with all those new and widened roads, which made cars actually viable. Before then? Trains ran from coast to coast and towns lived or died based on where the tracks went. There's been no impetus to switch away from using trains, and no framing as a left-right issue is going to invalidate the economic reasons for and against.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:12 PM   #731
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AOC is still the focus of conservative neurosis.

The Latest Attempt to Take Down AOC Ended Just as Spectacularly As You’d Expect

She gave her boyfriend a House email account that allows access to her calendar. This is common practice in the house and senate.

Right-wing outrage machine finds out, and accuses her of putting said boyfriend on the payroll. AOC and staff show that he is not on the payroll, and the House Office of the Chief Administrative Officer shows that this happens sometimes for spouses and family members of Congress People.

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Well, they’re partly correct. Roberts does have a House email address, but, as a spokesperson for the chamber’s Office of the Chief Administrative Officer explained, that does not mean he’s an employee.

“From time to time, at the request of members, spouses and partners are provided House email accounts for the purposes of viewing the member’s calendar,” the spokesperson said.
As usually happens, the rightwing machine just doubles down into conspiracy theories.
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