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Old 11th September 2016, 09:03 AM   #1
DaveThomasNMSR
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Why the '9/11 Truth' movement endures 15 years later

Why the '9/11 Truth' movement endures 15 years later
Father of 9/11 victim reconciles unconventional beliefs with grief

By Matt Kwong, CBC News Posted: Sep 10, 2016 7:31 AM ET Last Updated: Sep 10, 2016 1:31 PM ET


It's got quotes from Truther/victim relative Robert McIlvaine, psychology lecturer Mike Wood, myself, professor Michael Barkun (author of A Culture of Conspiracy), and Truther Christopher Bollyn. Reporter Kwong tried to contact Gage, but didn't get through, apparently.

A snippet:

Quote:
Though Bollyn shares little in common with those who seek to debunk Truther conspiracy theories, he does agree with them on one thing — namely, that 9/11 gave burgeoning online communities a new global calamity to dissect together in real time.

"The internet has been the real equalizer, allowing people like myself to do research and build a community of Truthers. It was the game-changer," Bollyn says. "The internet gave us the power."

Thomas, the skeptic with the Committee for Skeptical Inquiries, prefers to think of the internet as an "enabler for pseudo-science," giving people who at one time worked in isolation on their theories an open community in which to share new conspiracy theories.

Oh, and in the "A Picture is worth a Thousand words" department, this image pretty well puts the kibosh on Harrit's and Jones's "thermite residue found in WTC dust" nonsense.

Quote:

Dave Thomas creates a thermite reaction by smashing two cannonballs (one covered with aluminum) together. 9/11 Truthers claim the presence of thermite residue at the World Trade Center site points to a controlled detonation, but Thomas says thermite could be created from friction. (Myron Saldyt)
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Old 11th September 2016, 04:11 PM   #2
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Nice Dave but you really should try a muzzle loading rifle firing a patched round ball, or one of the other ways you can create the reactions and reactant residues.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:23 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Oh, and in the "A Picture is worth a Thousand words" department, this image pretty well puts the kibosh on Harrit's and Jones's "thermite residue found in WTC dust" nonsense.

The junk that has been flowing from the Truth Movement over the years is nothing but nonsense and has been debunked time after time.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:30 PM   #4
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It endures after 15 years because not all lunacy cures itself if left untreated.
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
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Old 11th September 2016, 08:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Bollyn says. "The internet gave us the power."
The power to mislead and celebrate overwhelming ignorance.
The power to hate due to ignorance.
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Old 11th September 2016, 08:12 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
The power to mislead and celebrate overwhelming ignorance.
The power to hate due to ignorance.
Untreated mental illness.
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
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Old 27th September 2016, 12:01 PM   #7
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Bump for Ziggi



Bump for Ziggy, re this post:
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Old 27th September 2016, 01:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Ahh, a Canadian contribution to gifs
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Old 27th September 2016, 01:13 PM   #9
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That CT still exists for the same reason as other CT exists like the moon landing hoax and the holocaust denial. Some people are simply utterly immune against any information contradicting their pet theory.
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Old 27th September 2016, 03:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2243
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Old 27th September 2016, 03:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
9/11 truth endures like Bigfoot; ignorance, massive gullibility, and other issue where lies are believed, evidence ignored.
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Old 27th September 2016, 05:23 PM   #12
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I'm amazed at the amount of people that still push the irrational 'therm*te' barrel.

Truthers, when will you get it through your thick skulls that the notion is irrational, impractical and unnecessary?

Therm*te: guaranteed to produce a grin every time!
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Old 27th September 2016, 05:26 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
Oh, really?
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Old 28th September 2016, 03:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
Why the '9/11 Truth' movement endures 15 years later
Father of 9/11 victim reconciles unconventional beliefs with grief

By Matt Kwong, CBC News Posted: Sep 10, 2016 7:31 AM ET Last Updated: Sep 10, 2016 1:31 PM ET


It's got quotes from Truther/victim relative Robert McIlvaine, psychology lecturer Mike Wood, myself, professor Michael Barkun (author of A Culture of Conspiracy), and Truther Christopher Bollyn. Reporter Kwong tried to contact Gage, but didn't get through, apparently.

A snippet:




Oh, and in the "A Picture is worth a Thousand words" department, this image pretty well puts the kibosh on Harrit's and Jones's "thermite residue found in WTC dust" nonsense.
Dave I would say you took quite a chance there because if the internet has taught us anything it's that thermite is capable of "exploding" multi ton steel beams sideways for 600 feet.

I would have at least thought your beard would be blown off a la Wile E Coyote when his latest roadrunner-catching-device goes off prematurely.
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Old 28th September 2016, 04:37 AM   #15
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Why does christianity endure? Or astrology? Or other non rational based belief systems endure? Who really knows? Perhaps one aspect of the traction the truth movement has is that it is not very rigorous from the get go. It is largely internet based where anyone can step up to the plate or play hand at the table with whomever is there. It's a sort of equalizer of "status". The net gives almost anyone who wants to participate a role largely defined by what they will put out. The entire truth movement reminds me of the old who dunnit mysteries where we would try to figure out who committed the murder. But the difference is today it's interactive and anyone who wants can add to the script or a sub plot or new characters and motives. Finding the truth about media presented stuff is in our DNA... and has gotten us out to see inane movies and sit in front of the boob tube for hours on end (to see the same plots told over and over again. And how cool you feel when you figured it out first or very early on with your OWN smarts. We got a lot of Columbos and Perry Masons out there.

911 however is serious business because thousands lost their lives on that day and perhaps no millions as a response to that day. Sadly most people can see the response made no sense at all, was based an lies and bizarre arguments... and clearly did not stop the terrorism. This of course has only fueled the truth sleuths into coming up with the false flag explanation. 911 was simply a pretext to get into ME wars, pour trillions into the national security state and inch the nation closer to fascism... There is logic to this... but there is also at least one other very different broad explanation...terrorism was / is / and will continue to be the response of disenfranchised people to what they perceive as "oppression" and exploitation and the only mechanism to get their grievances in the media.... so others in similar position will join in and feel "empowered" and perhaps intimidate their oppressors to reevaluate their policies and actions. The later is hardly possible because there are too many vested interests who profit from the polices. The ones who don't are the innocent victims who are largely exploited and used as rationale to double down.

And to John Q Public... it all looks like manipulation via the lamestream media which is owned by the same cabal who owns the defense industry, the energy sector, the industrial sector and with their legal and illegal bribes the US gov. John Q feels that the only tool he has is the internet where he can challenge the powerful and the system they run and own at his peril. With the withholding of the 28 pages for ages and then the proscription of filing lawsuits John Q sees his beliefs confirmed... the *truth* is being hidden. He sees WHO is hiding it and he thinks they are protecting their own guilt and complicity from seeing the light of day.

In the end the fact remains that the powerful and their self aggrandizing policies will never see real challenge nor will they be held accountable to the rule of law. As long as this is the status quo... anti establishment movements regardless of who leads them and inconvenient truths...will go on and on...
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Old 28th September 2016, 05:22 AM   #16
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The black helicopters just haven't tracked them all down yet.
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Old 28th September 2016, 05:34 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Why does christianity endure?
I have two ways to address that.
  1. Taking a strictly rational view: because it meets a perceived need better than, for example, strict rationality.

    You could consider religious beliefs to be a form of 'stress relief valve' for the normal problems of life. If you can't resolve something, you can 'hand it off' to a god, God (aka Allah, YHWH, and also Bob -- not many people know the last one), or some other form of 'other' with some form of 'special powers'. That can be a path to abdicating responsibility, or it can be a path to maintaining sanity (or somewhere in between).

    We find religious behaviour (by which I mean 'following the rules' -- not the social pretentions of being 'more moral' and so forth) to decline relative to the prosperity and ease-of-living within a society. Lesser real external stresses leads to lesser requirement to seek out or otherwise engage with this 'other'.

    (This could confuse Americans, and particularly atheist Americans, who believe that their nation is particularly religious. What your leaders do, and with the support of most of the population, is very much at odds with the central Christian message. Ask the present Pope -- who by some weird circumstance is a practicing Christian... )

    A society put under stress will tend to resort back to the religious beliefs that are rooted in that society.

  2. From the perspective of a Christian -- well, of course it does.
Quote:
Or astrology?
Classic example of a really useful confirmation bias. 'I had to eat all the ice-cream because I am [star sign], and therefore [make up lie, conveniently covered up by your chosen, highly biddable, woo]!'
Quote:
Or other non rational based belief systems endure? Who really knows?
At the moment, only God.

Maybe we'll figure out this stuff, but we're a long way off from figuring out the simpler stuff: such as what is consciousness? (Noam Chomsky has some interesting points about this.)
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Old 28th September 2016, 05:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
In the end the fact remains that the powerful and their self aggrandizing policies will never see real challenge nor will they be held accountable to the rule of law. As long as this is the status quo... anti establishment movements regardless of who leads them and inconvenient truths...will go on and on...
That will remain true, up until the point it is no longer true.

The way that a society is structured is, essentially, a type of consensus built around exploiting human frailties: our greed, ego, jealousy, etc. Those at the top must constantly work on keeping the rest off-balance, but not actually collapse the social construct.

Occasionally this has suffered localised failure, and we get revolutions. The American Revolution essentially involved changing proprietors, so was 'successful' only in the limited sense that it did not really attack the social order. The French Revolution became a debacle and blood-bath. The Russian Revolutions led to a half-arsed attempt at implementing socialism (but an authoritarian variant) that endured with modifications for seventy years, then fell apart. China's most recent revolution is still playing out, and is perhaps unpredictable.

There is no reason to suppose that a more effective revolutionary change can't occur, however. Human societies have evolved over time, even though we have not (or at least not significantly). Change like the Internet may have a much greater effect as younger people grow up and push us old farts aside then put it to the uses that seem 'natural' to them.

I think that you're being unduly pessimistic. That is one of the main tricks up the sleeve of our lords and masters -- if you aren't motivated to do something about the mess they are making, then they're safe in their strongholds.
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Old 28th September 2016, 12:25 PM   #19
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I've realized for several years that conspiracy theories are not about the event itself; they are about the consequences (real or perceived) of the event. The JFK conspiracy theories thrived mainly because of the Vietnam War. A lot of the people who bought into the "Oswald was a patsy" belief thought that JFK would not have escalated the war the way LBJ did, and therefore he was killed.

Ditto with 9-11, although here the consequences are less debatable. I doubt that the Iraq War and the toppling of Saddam would have happened absent 9-11. Yes, I know there is no direct connection between Saddam and 9-11; however, 9-11 created conditions that led Congress and the American people to support the war. The subsequent instability in the Middle East and the rise of ISIS are consequences that we deal with today.

If you think about it, this is why the Sandy Hook Truthers have never gained traction. There is no big consequential outcome from that tragedy. If, say, the government had repealed the Second Amendment on the basis of the murders of those kids, there would be a huge movement based on those conspiracy theories.
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Old 28th September 2016, 05:26 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I've realized for several years that conspiracy theories are not about the event itself; they are about the consequences (real or perceived) of the event. The JFK conspiracy theories thrived mainly because of the Vietnam War. A lot of the people who bought into the "Oswald was a patsy" belief thought that JFK would not have escalated the war the way LBJ did, and therefore he was killed.

Ditto with 9-11, although here the consequences are less debatable. I doubt that the Iraq War and the toppling of Saddam would have happened absent 9-11. Yes, I know there is no direct connection between Saddam and 9-11; however, 9-11 created conditions that led Congress and the American people to support the war. The subsequent instability in the Middle East and the rise of ISIS are consequences that we deal with today.

If you think about it, this is why the Sandy Hook Truthers have never gained traction. There is no big consequential outcome from that tragedy. If, say, the government had repealed the Second Amendment on the basis of the murders of those kids, there would be a huge movement based on those conspiracy theories.
I beg to differ with you. Iraq still probably would have happened I believe, because the Bush administration was set on it from the get go, they are on record in that regard. Against All Enemies well illustrates that.
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Old 28th September 2016, 05:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I beg to differ with you. Iraq still probably would have happened I believe, because the Bush administration was set on it from the get go, they are on record in that regard. Against All Enemies well illustrates that.
It's impossible to prove this either way, so you and Brainster must agree to disagree on a matter of genuine opinion.

I tend to agree with Brainster - at least with regard to the all-out war that was. To commit "boots" (euphemism for "American lives") and large funds to a war that only a part of the political spectrum wanted is quite a step. Limited expansion of air strikes - yes, perhaps. The complete desaster war that Bush and Rumsfeld led - I want to believe that only a Congress stirred and blinded by huge terror could fall for such folly.
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Old 28th September 2016, 06:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It's impossible to prove this either way, so you and Brainster must agree to disagree on a matter of genuine opinion.

I tend to agree with Brainster - at least with regard to the all-out war that was. To commit "boots" (euphemism for "American lives") and large funds to a war that only a part of the political spectrum wanted is quite a step. Limited expansion of air strikes - yes, perhaps. The complete desaster war that Bush and Rumsfeld led - I want to believe that only a Congress stirred and blinded by huge terror could fall for such folly.
I agree it's all guesswork, however the key would Bush being able to get support in Congrss, and that could come with Republicans getting a majority in both houses as a start, plus enough votes on top.
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Old 29th September 2016, 12:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I beg to differ with you. Iraq still probably would have happened I believe, because the Bush administration was set on it from the get go, they are on record in that regard. Against All Enemies well illustrates that.
We are in agreement that they wanted to topple Saddam, but I doubt they could have gotten the consensus needed to pursue the war absent 9-11.

I would definitely not take Richard Clarke's word on anything; he made at least two misstatements of fact during his 9-11 Commission appearance, and his testimony was a classic piece of self-serving bull.
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Old 29th September 2016, 12:43 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It endures after 15 years because not all lunacy cures itself if left untreated.
Not sure a cure is available for this kind of lunacies...
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Old 29th September 2016, 03:44 AM   #25
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911 provided the credible type of excuse... when attacked we don't take it lying down. And as much as some states around the world annoy the policy makers in this nation... they can't and won't simply start a war with a perceived adversary such as Cuba (was), Venezuela, Nicaragua, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya (was), USSR and then Russia... China and so on. We DID support insurgencies to topple some of the above regimes... and with 9/11 we had a BS rationale... and a vengeful, angry public who didn't care about the facts...
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Old 29th September 2016, 04:59 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
We DID support insurgencies to topple some of the above regimes...
The US is not exceptional. Its government behaves much as other government of powerful nations always have.
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and with 9/11 we had a BS rationale... and a vengeful, angry public who didn't care about the facts...
Yes, and so evil begat evil -- and created the conditions for terrorism to grow. Like feeding a cancer.

I remember a few days after the 9/11 attacks, a co-worker was reading the local press. He remarked that what would now happen would be thousands of other innocent people getting slaughtered by the US government -- and this was how these events always unfolded.
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