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Old 23rd September 2016, 05:21 PM   #121
skyeagle409
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
"Rest of the story" is propaganda you fell for. Start of the story is support of the "Afghan Arabs" since the Carter admin, with Brzezinksi bragging about it, and btw requests by the democratically elected government of Afghanistan to the USSR to help them against the homegrowm Islamist fanatics (since disclosed UDSSR documents prove that). Leading to a development where in 1993 Fisk for "The Independent" had Osama Bin Laden as a Freedom Fighter.

Sourced by my two links in the previous post. You have no idea what you're talking about.

No propaganda by any means. It was no secret that the US. did not support Osama bin Laden's group, the Afghan Arabs, as confirmed by Osama bin Laden and Pakistan. The fact that you are unaware of that fact proves that you are not doing your homework.

Let's hear what a member of bin Laden's group had to say.


Al-Qaeda Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fr3rA_KKyk

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Old 23rd September 2016, 05:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Apparently, you are confusing the Afghan Arabs, a group of foreigners not involved in the meeting with President Reagan.
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Just to let you know, the United States had supported the Afghan Mujahideen, not the Afghan Arabs nor did the United States support the Taliban afterward, yet even the Taliban had warned the United States of Osama bin Laden's intentions to launch a massive terrorist attack against America.

You might want to take a look at this.

This is what my sources prove to be uninformed nonsense. You all are welcome.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 05:29 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
This is what my sources prove to be uninformed nonsense. You all are welcome.

Just do your homework and do it properly, otherwise, be prepared to be corrected again!

I love history and you have proven to me that you lack the enthusiasm that I have for world history.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 05:45 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Just do your homework and do it properly, otherwise, be prepared to be corrected again!

I love history and you have proven to me that you lack the enthusiasm that I have for world history.

You evidently dont "love history", otherwise you would already have paused spreading disinformation here. Or maybe you are really bad at that loving thing. Again, here, 1993, Fisk asking Bin Laden about the help and encouragement the US (widely known at that time) gave to his group, met by Osama with shy evasions because he obviously did want to keep that aid.

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Old 23rd September 2016, 06:55 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You evidently dont "love history", otherwise you would already have paused spreading disinformation here. Or maybe you are really bad at that loving thing. Again, here, 1993, Fisk asking Bin Laden about the help and encouragement the US (widely known at that time) gave to his group, met by Osama with shy evasions because he obviously did want to keep that aid.
From your article: "Personally neither I nor my brothers saw evidence of American help."
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Old 23rd September 2016, 07:13 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
"Rest of the story" is propaganda you fell for. Start of the story is support of the "Afghan Arabs" since the Carter admin, with Brzezinksi bragging about it, and btw requests by the democratically elected government of Afghanistan to the USSR to help them against the homegrowm Islamist fanatics (since disclosed UDSSR documents prove that). Leading to a development where in 1993 Fisk for "The Independent" had Osama Bin Laden as a Freedom Fighter.

Sourced by my two links in the previous post. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Yeah, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan at the request of a questionably elected government. The rest of the Afghans and the Pakistani government turned to the US for help.

You leave out the part were the Soviets were poisoning wells, straifing villages, booby-trapping toys so little kids would blow their arms off, and crushing tribal elders under tank treads. You're obviously cool with all of that.

Bin Laden was contacted by the CIA element on the ground and offered assistance and training. Bin Laden's reply was along the lines of F.O. since he wanted nothing to do with Americans even then. He was radicalized while he was in Lebanon during early 80s when we shelled and bombed parts of that country during a peacekeeping mission. There was no way he was going to work for the USA and no way in hell he was going to have anything to do with the CIA.

And yes, bin Laden had a construction company to help his guys find work after the Soviets fled Afghanistan. Good for him, always nice to see a veteran helping other vets out. And regardless of what bin Laden did later the fact remains that in Afghanistan in the 1980s the man was a freedom fighter on the same side as the US, war is funny that way.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 07:38 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Yeah, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan at the request of a questionably elected government.
After the other side in the civil war murdered three hundred or so Soviet citizens that they had kidnapped.

The Soviet government had warned the Afghan government that trying to push through their social modernisation programmes would create serious problems. (Experience with trying to ram 'Sovietisation' down the throats of their own Muslim populations.)
Quote:
You leave out the part were the Soviets were poisoning wells, straifing villages, booby-trapping toys so little kids would blow their arms off, and crushing tribal elders under tank treads. You're obviously cool with all of that.
You've heard of propaganda, right?

These sorts of claims are always made, and there is never any proof for them bar 'eyewitness testimony'. Remember the tale about Iraqi troops throwing babies out of incubators? How about the evils of the German Kaiser?

Unless there is some proof for an accusation, you should assume it's propaganda.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 07:48 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You evidently dont "love history", otherwise you would already have paused spreading disinformation here. Or maybe you are really bad at that loving thing. Again, here, 1993, Fisk asking Bin Laden about the help and encouragement the US (widely known at that time) gave to his group, met by Osama with shy evasions because he obviously did want to keep that aid.
You are definitely not a student of history, the Afgans were being slaughtered, and you defend the Soviet monsters doing the killing?
How hilariously Hippocratical of you to term yourself a truther. You do know Afghans came to the USA to recruit aid for Afghanistan during the Afghan Soviet war.
Did you actually meet any of the Afghani refugees?
Did they tell you about this democratically elected puppet government in which they had no vote?

I did I met a young boy with no hands and his blind and disfigured sister, along with the widowed mother.
The suspected the father of helping the Mujahedeen, so the brave soviets did the honorable thing and tortured the kids to try to get the mother to talk.
They shot the boys hands off, and raped and threw battery acid in the girls face.
Those are the brave, heroic Soviet soldiers you champion.
The father was killed helping his wife and children escape to Pakistan.
The Local children's hospital was treating them, I was participating in an art show to try and help raise funds to help more of them.
V mm
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Old 23rd September 2016, 07:55 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by boggis the cat View Post
After the other side in the civil war murdered three hundred or so Soviet citizens that they had kidnapped.

The Soviet government had warned the Afghan government that trying to push through their social modernisation programmes would create serious problems. (Experience with trying to ram 'Sovietisation' down the throats of their own Muslim populations.)

You've heard of propaganda, right?

These sorts of claims are always made, and there is never any proof for them bar 'eyewitness testimony'. Remember the tale about Iraqi troops throwing babies out of incubators? How about the evils of the German Kaiser?

Unless there is some proof for an accusation, you should assume it's propaganda.
Butterfly Cluster bombs that would flutter down on winglets spinning like maple seeds were actually real.
Several Afghan Children were treated at Americans children's hospitals for the injury caused by those bombs
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Old 23rd September 2016, 09:53 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Butterfly Cluster bombs that would flutter down on winglets spinning like maple seeds were actually real.
Yes. The Luftwaffe used them against Britain.
Quote:
Several Afghan Children were treated at Americans children's hospitals for the injury caused by those bombs
In Britain during WWII?

I'm sceptical of your claim.

Citation?
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Old 23rd September 2016, 10:07 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You evidently dont "love history", otherwise you would already have paused spreading disinformation here.
Apparently, I do love history enough to know when Truthers don't get it right.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 10:36 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
. Or maybe you are really bad at that loving thing. Again, here, 1993, Fisk asking Bin Laden about the help and encouragement the US (widely known at that time) gave to his group, met by Osama with shy evasions because he obviously did want to keep that aid.

Apparently, you didn't bother to read the rest of the story where Osama bin Laden said: "Personally neither I nor my brothers saw evidence of American help." After all, his quote is there for all to read from the link you've posted.

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Old 23rd September 2016, 10:49 PM   #133
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I don't doubt atrocities occurred on the part of the Russians and there's no excuse for them. However, that doesn't preclude fabrications or exaggerations for emotional shock value.

Among the horrors discussed, I remember some images of women who's faces were scarred by acid. That sounds a lot more like the kind of thing a Wahhabist militant does to a woman for not wearing a veil than a random act of butchery from professional armed forces.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 10:56 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I don't doubt atrocities occurred on the part of the Russians and there's no excuse for them. However, that doesn't preclude fabrications or exaggerations for emotional shock value.

Among the horrors discussed, I remember some images of women who's faces were scarred by acid. That sounds a lot more like the kind of thing a Wahhabist militant does to a woman for not wearing a veil than a random act of butchery from professional armed forces.
I'm not suggesting that Soviet troops (most of whom were conscripted, by the way, and not career military) did not commit any war crimes. War and war crimes tend to go together -- one of the best arguments for not having war.

You have to be very careful not to accept a claim just because it fits in with your own prejudices. I consider the Russian role in Syria to have been far more useful than the US and US allies, for various reasons. That doesn't rule out the possibility that Russia could have hit an aid convoy, nor does it mean that anything the US or allies are accused of is in fact true.

If you want to know, rather than believe, then you have to do more than read a press release or op ed.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 11:28 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by boggis the cat View Post
I'm not suggesting that Soviet troops (most of whom were conscripted, by the way, and not career military) did not commit any war crimes. War and war crimes tend to go together -- one of the best arguments for not having war.

You have to be very careful not to accept a claim just because it fits in with your own prejudices. I consider the Russian role in Syria to have been far more useful than the US and US allies, for various reasons. That doesn't rule out the possibility that Russia could have hit an aid convoy, nor does it mean that anything the US or allies are accused of is in fact true.

If you want to know, rather than believe, then you have to do more than read a press release or op ed.
In the particular example I gave, I don't think it's something we ever can know with certitude, and I don't claim to. Without any further information provided than "here's some pictures of women with acid-scarred faces" we can't absolutely conclude anything. Making an educated guess based on the history of that particular form of atrocity isn't entirely unreasonable, though.
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Old 24th September 2016, 12:48 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by boggis the cat View Post
You've heard of propaganda, right?

These sorts of claims are always made, and there is never any proof for them bar 'eyewitness testimony'. Remember the tale about Iraqi troops throwing babies out of incubators? How about the evils of the German Kaiser?

Unless there is some proof for an accusation, you should assume it's propaganda.
Most of those stories come from Russian Afghan war vets. We're killing civilians and we try hard not to (and nobody gives us a break). The booby-trapped toys were a real thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/10/op...-of-death.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/1987/0916/eafgh.html

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...in-afghanistan

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-05-...iet-atrocities

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...ks-mike-hoover

These PDFs are from Human Rights Watch:

1984

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1984/afghan1284.pdf

1985

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1985/afghan1285.pdf

1987

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1988/afghan0388.pdf


I can do this all day. The Soviets had a different approach to war.

This is a Human Rights Watch report from 2008 and their complaints are much different:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/09/0...hs-afghanistan.

The Afghans just want to be left alone, this is true for any people who live in remote mountains, you live there because you don't like city folks. The evidence for this being that not much has changed there since Alexander the Great. When the Taliban 2.0 retake control once we get bored and leave things will get back to their version of normal.
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Old 24th September 2016, 01:56 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Most of those stories come from Russian Afghan war vets. We're killing civilians and we try hard not to (and nobody gives us a break). The booby-trapped toys were a real thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/10/op...-of-death.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/1987/0916/eafgh.html

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...in-afghanistan

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-05-...iet-atrocities

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...ks-mike-hoover
Thanks for the links. Propaganda, though. Cold War, cooption of media to support official narratives...
Quote:
HRW is one of the more reliable sources for aggregated information on wars and other arenas where violations occur.

They are not infallible, though, and also not immune to cooption into the propaganda efforts of the states they are based in.

(NGOs are being increasingly used in place of direct government action, because people are less trusting of government and authorities more broadly. Too much information easily available now that discredits them. This does also have the unfortunate side-effect of making 'conspiracy theories' seem more plausible.)
Quote:
The Soviets had a different approach to war.
Not really. You could compare the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan with the US involvement in Vietnam. Similar issues arose. Military forces bulked out with conscription.

I would argue that it's the similarity that stands out.
Quote:
This is a Human Rights Watch report from 2008 and their complaints are much different:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/09/0...hs-afghanistan.
Yes, because the situation is quite different.

Pull up an HRW report on 'signature strikes', though, and arguments about the nature of war-fighting go out the window.

https://www.hrw.org/topic/terrorism-...ngs-and-drones

Quote:
The Afghans just want to be left alone, this is true for any people who live in remote mountains, you live there because you don't like city folks.
I doubt that's the case. Afghanistan isn't all mountainous terrain, by any means. I think that you're taking a modern Western cultural view and incorrectly projecting it onto an ancient human civilisation.

All people want outsiders to leave them alone. Nobody wants invaders turning up to force you to do as they say, regardless of how you couch that approach.
Quote:
The evidence for this being that not much has changed there since Alexander the Great. When the Taliban 2.0 retake control once we get bored and leave things will get back to their version of normal.
Yes, which won't be 'ideal'.

But we don't have any moral justification for trying to control other nations. All cultures will eventually move toward ideas and principles that prove to be better than others. That may take time, and there are no MIC profits to be had, but everyone is better off in aggregate.
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Old 24th September 2016, 02:20 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by boggis the cat View Post
Yes. The Luftwaffe used them against Britain.

In Britain during WWII?

I'm sceptical of your claim.

Citation?
No the Germans did not use butterfly cluster bombs against Britain, much of what I related I saw with my own eyes.
You call me a liar while you lie yourself, what about the Soviet Veto of the war crimes investigation at the UN, by the team of Independent Investors?http://www.afghan-network.net/Landmines/

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Old 24th September 2016, 03:57 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
No the Germans did not use butterfly cluster bombs against Britain, much of what I related I saw with my own eyes.
You call me a liar while you lie yourself, what about the Soviet Veto of the war crimes investigation at the UN, by the team of Independent Investors?http://www.afghan-network.net/Landmines/
Yes they did.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Bomb

Quote:
Butterfly bombs were first used against Ipswich in 1940, but were also dropped on Kingston upon Hull, Grimsby and Cleethorpes in June 1943, amongst various other targets in the United Kingdom. They were subsequently used against Allied forces in the Middle East. The British Government deliberately suppressed news of the damage and disruption caused by butterfly bombs in order not to encourage the Germans to keep using them. On October 28, 1940 some butterfly bombs that had incompletely armed themselves were discovered in Ipswich by British ordnance technicians Sergeant Cann and 2nd Lieutenant Taylor. By screwing the arming rods back into the fuzes (i.e. the unarmed position) the two men were able to recover safe examples to reverse engineer.
WW2 Government warning film about Butterfly hombs.

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I AGREE

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Old 24th September 2016, 04:34 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes they did.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Bomb



WW2 Government warning film about Butterfly hombs.

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I AGREE
Not even close to the design of the soviet micro bomblets.
You do realize we are referring to a type of miniaturized very deadly bomblet do you not?http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/2619.html

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Old 24th September 2016, 05:13 AM   #141
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You posted Butterfly Bombs, they were miniaturised bombs exactly as you described. The SD2 submunition was an 8-centimetre (3.1in) long cylinder of cast iron, which was slightly larger in diameter before its wings deployed they were dropped as sub-munitions from a larger casing which held 108 of the sub munitions. Thry could be fused to explode on contact or after a time delay, they had anti handling devices so they would explode if tampered with.
American M83 cluster bombs used in Korea and Vietnam were copies of the German design.

They were used by the Germans on Britain in ww2.
You were mistaken in your claim.

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Old 24th September 2016, 06:25 AM   #142
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I was just making a point about loose use of terminology. Faux incredulity doesn't translate well into posts.

Particularly in regard to anything subject to high degrees of propagandising, such as war, it is important to carefully define what you refer to. Assume that the person you're writing to isn't some form of psychic nor necessarily automatically understands what you may be referring to.

(My Cold War propaganda is a bit rusty. Not sure if it's worth revisiting it, given that there seems to be a concerted effort to start another.)
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Old 24th September 2016, 07:22 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm not interested in elaborating on any of this, btw, especially not with some overly exited fellows I have no recollection of ever engaging with who think they are important enough to make it on my ignore list.

Just like most of the duhbunkie squad I'm - on this topic in this venue - in retirement and mostly cracking free fall jokes.
Well at least you've stopped calling me "the Saudi guy".
Always look on the bright side, that's what I say.
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Old 24th September 2016, 10:22 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post

It's not the first time I recommend this article from 2003, from the time when KSM was written into the "official story", only to become one of the main sources of the "commission report" after being waterboarded hundreds of times a month. Happy study!
In the spirit of open-mindeness, I took up your recommendation. What did I find? Huge wall of text, no evidence at all. Sources are anonymous, paragraph after paragraph of bare assertion. Basically a complete waste of time.
I would recommend this article to anyone who wishes to learn what CE accepts as in-depth research and insightful analysis. It will add some valuable context to the sneering condescension that characterises his posts.
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Old 24th September 2016, 10:29 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
In the spirit of open-mindeness, I took up your recommendation. What did I find? Huge wall of text, no evidence at all. Sources are anonymous, paragraph after paragraph of bare assertion. Basically a complete waste of time.
I would recommend this article to anyone who wishes to learn what CE accepts as in-depth research and insightful analysis. It will add some valuable context to the sneering condescension that characterises his posts.
Anything from globalresearch.ca can be discarded straight out. They are in the business of shamelessly making up whatever they can to pin everything bad that happens on the US government.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca
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Old 24th September 2016, 01:30 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
1. I did not say the fallout didn't last until today. You are claiming that the collapse was so important, before the act, that the conspirators would have taken a large amount of risk merely to make absolutely sure that those towers don't just get impacted and burn out but actually collapse.

2. If the towers hadn't collapsed all of us would know where we haven been when they got impacted, many still traumatized from it even today.
It goes further than that, of course. From al-Qaeda's perspective it made sense to have as much redundancy built into the attacks as possible, because if even one of four hijack attempts succeeded in hitting its target they would see it as a success, and it wasn't expensive or complicated to fund four teams. From the point of view of imaginary conspirators, everything over and above flying two planes into the Twin Towers was a waste of effort, because we're supposed to believe that they had everything so smoothly planned that no detail of it could fail, yet they executed an insanely complex plan.

Conspiracy theories in general are stories that only appear to make sense if they're told backwards. The idea of a set of conspirators getting together and deciding the false flag attack couldn't possibly succeed unless there were four different hijacks, one of which had to fail, is in itself laughable.

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Old 24th September 2016, 04:04 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You posted Butterfly Bombs, they were miniaturised bombs exactly as you described. The SD2 submunition was an 8-centimetre (3.1in) long cylinder of cast iron, which was slightly larger in diameter before its wings deployed they were dropped as sub-munitions from a larger casing which held 108 of the sub munitions. Thry could be fused to explode on contact or after a time delay, they had anti handling devices so they would explode if tampered with.
American M83 cluster bombs used in Korea and Vietnam were copies of the German design.

They were used by the Germans on Britain in ww2.
You were mistaken in your claim.
Yes I was, thank you for correcting my error.

However the other parts of my posts I was not mistaken, the Soviet secret police, and the Soviet friendly Afghan government, tortured many Afghan civilians in an effort to ferret out the mujahedeen.
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Old 24th September 2016, 07:34 PM   #148
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Next installment: thermite or no thermite? – the saga of the red-gray chips
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Old 24th September 2016, 08:10 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Those making fantastic claims have the burden to prove them. There is no proof of anything from Jones & Harrit and there never will be.
Red paint can be contaminated with aluminum dust
and become thermitic, the claims Jones and Harrit make are for a low grade type of fire work thermite.
Not for a faster acting Copper oxide nano rod thermite. All the rest of the evidence could occur naturally. Microspheres are not unusual, they are pollution you create them when you arch a light switch entering a dark room turning on a light.
Everything Jones and Harrit found points to paint chips, not to any energetic material that could do harm to steel.
Jones Himself stated no Aluminum was found in the chips, none, in the FlIR testing at BYU, there were no inert gas ignition tests in a DSC, everything points not to thermite but to fraud on the part of those involved in the paper.
If there is evidence then let's see them produce it the burden of proof is on Jones & Harrit and those who believe in their nonsensical idiocy.
Produce the result that should have been shown by competent scientists!
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Old 24th September 2016, 08:50 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Say, how'd that poll turn out?

Also, are you going to revise your claim of ties to bin Laden and the US, now that two people separately pointed out your article you linked to has bin Laden saying he didn't see any help from the U.S.?
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Old 24th September 2016, 08:52 PM   #151
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Before you move on to the latest instalment of hastily written woo apologia, see if you agree that my thinking about this earlier piece is correct.

https://off-guardian.org/2016/09/17/...-conduct-heat/

It seems infeasibly difficult to get across the point that the models are carefully designed to reproduce the measurements found during real testing. How hard is that to grasp?

My proposition is that the reason for this weird refusal to understand this point is that it completely collapses the premise of the article. It is in their interests to not understand the point, and so they don't.

(They are even going so far as to claim, repeatedly, that I have changed my "opinion" on this. The editors / moderators are using this assertion as a reason for editing my posts for 'trolling', deleting the reference to this point. I'm fairly sure this is deliberate, rather than a manifestation of stupidity on their part.)
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Old 24th September 2016, 09:00 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by boggis the cat View Post
Before you move on to the latest instalment of hastily written woo apologia, see if you agree that my thinking about this earlier piece is correct.

https://off-guardian.org/2016/09/17/...-conduct-heat/

It seems infeasibly difficult to get across the point that the models are carefully designed to reproduce the measurements found during real testing. How hard is that to grasp?

My proposition is that the reason for this weird refusal to understand this point is that it completely collapses the premise of the article. It is in their interests to not understand the point, and so they don't.

(They are even going so far as to claim, repeatedly, that I have changed my "opinion" on this. The editors / moderators are using this assertion as a reason for editing my posts for 'trolling', deleting the reference to this point. I'm fairly sure this is deliberate, rather than a manifestation of stupidity on their part.)
They are harping on two minor instances that only have to deal with WTC1 and 2, and one is only for preparation of a test of a steel beam. The other is modeling heated gas boundary and the steel is away from the boundary. It's a load of bollocks to turn it into some grand failure. And to your point, yes ,sometimes simplifications are needed in order to get a solution to coverge. They either have no experience with engineering models, or they are being disengenuos.
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Old 24th September 2016, 09:07 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Also, are you going to revise your claim of ties to bin Laden and the US, now that two people separately pointed out your article you linked to has bin Laden saying he didn't see any help from the U.S.?

You been the Bin Laden who denied having anything to do with 9/11? That Bin Laden?
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Old 24th September 2016, 09:14 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You been the Bin Laden who denied having anything to do with 9/11? That Bin Laden?
Where does he say that in the article?
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Old 24th September 2016, 09:19 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Where does he say that in the article?

Dude, stop annoying the audience with your nonsense. I have called it "shy evasion" what Bin Laden said about the US aid everybody including Fisk knew he was getting. If you want to take his word as gospel truth, there is his denial of having anything to do with 9/11 in your flawed way of arguing.

Same with the twitter poll,. Non of the duhbunkie crowd came up with the correct answer, not least because none of them wanted to reveal themselves to evil me (not knowing that their vote would be invisible to me anyway). How many followers do you have, and what do you pay for them?
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Old 24th September 2016, 09:33 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Dude, stop annoying the audience with your nonsense. I have called it "shy evasion" what Bin Laden said about the US aid everybody including Fisk knew he was getting. If you want to take his word as gospel truth, there is his denial of having anything to do with 9/11 in your flawed way of arguing.

Same with the twitter poll,. Non of the duhbunkie crowd came up with the correct answer, not least because none of them wanted to reveal themselves to evil me (not knowing that their vote would be invisible to me anyway). How many followers do you have, and what do you pay for them?
So you're not going to acknowledge that Bin Laden said he didn't get help from the US, as your own article says?
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Old 24th September 2016, 09:56 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
They are harping on two minor instances that only have to deal with WTC1 and 2, and one is only for preparation of a test of a steel beam. The other is modeling heated gas boundary and the steel is away from the boundary.
Yes. I misinterpreted the scope of those 'preliminary' models, but that has no impact on my central point about how the (full) models are designed and employed.
Quote:
It's a load of bollocks to turn it into some grand failure.
That much seems obvious. But I now understand the shuck and jive technique behind these 'truther' assertions.
Quote:
And to your point, yes ,sometimes simplifications are needed in order to get a solution to coverge. They either have no experience with engineering models, or they are being disengenuos.
It appears that they are simply regurgitating a 'truther' talking point, so I wouldn't expect them to initially understand the point about the models.

But surely they can put together the import of ensuring the physical testing is represented by the models? It really doesn't matter how the models are constructed provided they end up reproducing (to some reasonable degree of close approximation) the physical test results.

I am fairly sure that the editors / moderators are wilfully refusing to understand that point, because it does not further their agenda.

This also derails further discussion, and that halts progressing to the 'should NIST release their model data' point. They don't seem to be aware that they're sabotaging proper discussion, or possibly don't wish to progress into that area. (They nuked my point about the model complexity and other problems with having the 'data', in another thread.)
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Old 24th September 2016, 10:05 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I have called it "shy evasion" what Bin Laden said about the US aid everybody including Fisk knew he was getting.
Why would the CIA keep funding Al Queda after the attack on the WTC in 1993? After the attack on the USS Cole in 2000?

'Oh that rascally Osama! Let's keep funding and assisting his network of terrorists anyway!' -- CIA masterminds.

At some point, rationality leaves your argument. When you hear that door slamming, back up a bit and rethink.
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Old 24th September 2016, 11:06 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You been the Bin Laden who denied having anything to do with 9/11? That Bin Laden?

Apparently, you are unaware that Osama bin Laden had admitted that he was responsible for 9/11.

Quote:
Bin Laden Admits 9/11 Responsibility, Warns of More Attacks

A tape aired by Al-Jazeera television Friday showed al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden admitting for the first time that he orchestrated the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks and saying the United States could face more.


Bin Laden warns of attacks on the U.S.

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates Breaking more than a year's silence, Osama bin Laden warned Americans in an audiotape released on Thursday that Al Qaeda was planning more attacks on the United States, but he offered a "long truce" on undefined terms.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/10...ty-for-11.html

There were many warnings flowing in from around that world that Osama bin Laden would be responsible for the attack.

Quote:
Taliban Issues Warning to the United States

In late July 2001, Afghanistan’s Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil learned that Osama bin Laden was planning a “huge attack” on targets inside America.

The attack was imminent, and would kill thousands, he learned from the leader of the rebel Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which was closely allied with al-Qaeda at the time. Muttawakil sent an emissary to pass this information on to the US Consul General, and another US official, “possibly from the intelligence services.”

http://www.historycommons.org/essay....ytriedtowarnus


Officials Told of 'Major Assault' Plans

WASHINGTON — FBI and CIA officials were advised in August that as many as 200 terrorists were slipping into this country and planning "a major assault on the United States," a high-ranking law enforcement official said Wednesday.

The advisory was passed on by the Mossad, Israel's intelligence agency. It cautioned that it had picked up indications of a "large-scale target" in the United States and that Americans would be "very vulnerable," the official said.

It was reported that the Mossad informed the FBI and CIA in August 2001 that as many as 200 terrorists were slipping into the United States and planning "a major assault on the United States." The Israeli intelligence agency allegedly cautioned the FBI that it had picked up indications of a "large-scale target" in the United States and that Americans would be "very vulnerable."

articles.latimes.com...


Clues Alerted White House to Potential Attacks

Based on its own intelligence, the Israeli government provided "general" information to the United States in the second week of August that an Al Qaeda attack was imminent.

– French intelligence echoed the "general" information in the final week of August.

– Russian President Vladimir Putin has said publicly that he ordered his intelligence agencies to alert the United States last summer that suicide pilots were training for attacks on U.S. targets.

– Millennium bomber Ahmad Ressam testified in closed and open court trials relating to his Dec. 1999 arrest for trying to bring bomb-making materials across the Canadian border that attack plans, including hijackings and attacks on New York City targets, were ongoing.

www.foxnews.com...



WARNINGS THAT THE DANGER WOULD COME FROM THE AIR

BRITAIN, WARNING #1: Al-Qaeda is planning to use aircraft in "unconventional ways", "possibly as flying bombs"

the British intelligence agency, gives a secret report to liaison staff at the US embassy in London. The reports states that al-Qaeda has plans to use "commercial aircraft" in "unconventional ways", "possibly as flying bombs." [Sunday Times, 6/9/02]

BRITAIN, WARNING #3: An Al-Qaeda attack will involve multiple hijackings

Early August 2001 ©: Britain gives the US another warning about an al-Qaeda attack. The previous British warning (see July 16, 2001) was vague as to method, but this warning specifies multiple airplane hijackings. This warning is included in Bush's briefing on August 6. [Sunday Herald, 5/19/02]

CAYMAN ISLANDS, WARNING #2: Three al-Qaeda agents are part of a plot "organizing a major terrorist act against the US via an airline or airlines"

August 29, 2001: Three men from either Pakistan or Afghanistan living in the Cayman Islands are briefly arrested in June 2001 for discussing hijacking attacks in New York City (see June 4, 2001). On this day, a Cayman Islands radio station receives an unsigned letter claiming these same three men are agents of bin Laden. The anonymous author warns that they "are organizing a major terrorist act against the US via an airline or airlines." The letter is forwarded to a Cayman government official but no action is taken until after 9/11 and it isn't known when the US is informed. Many criminals and/or businesses use the Cayman Islands as a safe, no tax, no questions asked haven to keep their money. The author of the letter meets with the FBI shortly after 9/11, and claims his information was a "premonition of sorts." The three men are later arrested. Its unclear what has happened to them since their arrest. [Miami Herald, 9/20/01, Los Angeles Times, 9/20/01, MSNBC, 9/23/01] FTW

EGYPT, WARNING #1: An undercover agent learns 20 al-Qaeda agents are in the US, four have received flight training

Late July 2001 (D): CBS later has a brief mention in a long story on another topic: "Just days after Atta return[s] to the US from Spain, Egyptian intelligence in Cairo says it received a report from one of its operatives in Afghanistan that 20 al-Qaeda members had slipped into the US and four of them had received flight training on Cessnas. To the Egyptians, pilots of small planes didn't sound terribly alarming, but they [pass] on the message to the CIA anyway, fully expecting Washington to request information. The request never [comes]." [CBS, 10/9/02] This appears to be one of several accurate Egyptian warnings based on informants (see June 13, 2001 and August 30, 2001). Could Egypt have known the names of some or all of the hijackers? Given FBI agent Ken Williams' memo about flight schools a short time before (see July 10, 2001), shouldn't the US have investigated this closely instead of completely ignoring it?

GERMANY: Terrorists will use airplanes as weapons to attack "American and Israeli symbols"

Which explains the message in the following FBI Flyer


Quote:
FBI Website: Most Wanted Terrorist Dead

Bin Laden Killed in ‘Targeted Operation’

05/02/11
The mastermind of the attacks on September 11, 2001 that killed thousands of innocent men, women, and children has been killed.

Intelligence agencies quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by bin Laden’s terrorist organization, and in October 2001, his name was added to the U.S. Department of State’s Most Wanted Terrorists List

And further confirmation of bin Laden and al-Qaeda's involvement came from al-Qaeda itself.

Quote:
Al-Qaeda released martyr videos for most of the 9/11 hijackers

The Al Jazeera satellite network shows an hour-long video about al-Qaeda containing footage given to it from al-Qaeda of some of the 9/11 hijackers, including a martyr video from hijacker Abdulaziz Alomari (see September 9, 2002 and September 9, 2002).

http://cdn.historycommons.org/images...81722-8644.jpg

http://cdn.historycommons.org/images...1722-40641.jpg

Osama bin Laden committed an act of war with his 9/11 attack against the United States and that helps explain why he is now lying in a watery grave.

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Old 24th September 2016, 11:15 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
"Rest of the story" is propaganda you fell for. Start of the story is support of the "Afghan Arabs" since the Carter admin, with Brzezinksi bragging about it, and btw requests by the democratically elected government of Afghanistan to the USSR to help them against the homegrowm Islamist fanatics (since disclosed UDSSR documents prove that). Leading to a development where in 1993 Fisk for "The Independent" had Osama Bin Laden as a Freedom Fighter.
It is apparent that you didn't do your homework on Osama bin Laden or Robert Fisk, so let's take a look at what bin Laden told Robert Fisk.

Quote:
Osama bin Laden Confirms No US Support in Afghanistan

Bin Laden himself has repeatedly denied that he received any American support. “Personally neither I nor my brothers saw any evidence of American help,” bin Laden told British journalist Robert Fisk in 1993.

In 1996, Mr. Fisk interviewed bin Laden again. The arch-terrorist was equally adamant: “We were never, at any time, friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans supported the Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies.”

You lost your case.

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