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27th April 2013, 11:00 AM | #1 |
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Dawkins on the value of theology
Is there anything factually wrong in the quote? Please enlighten me. Let's also put to rest the claim that Dawkins encourages ignorance about religion. He doesn't. Instead, he urges faith schools to teach about all religions. |
27th April 2013, 11:03 AM | #2 |
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The whole quote is an expression of ignorance and antipathy.
Why don't you see that a problem coming from someone who bills himself as promoting reason? |
27th April 2013, 11:07 AM | #3 |
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27th April 2013, 11:22 AM | #4 |
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27th April 2013, 11:25 AM | #5 |
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Sic et Non disproves the first sentence.
He seems to have confused science and technology (they're similar, but not the same thing). His examples of "bad achievements" show that he's not taking his own arguments seriously. If he was, he'd address the copious amounts of erroneous, mistaken, and downright fraudulent research. The last two lines are demonstrably untrue. Theology has advanced the cause of reason far more than he's willing to admit--particularly in the Middle Ages. We can disagree with their conclusions, but theologians were demonstrably engaging in philosophical inquiry every bit as much as any of the Greek philosophers Dawkins has praised in other works. On the whole it's one of those soundbites that sounds great, until you examine it in more detail. |
27th April 2013, 11:40 AM | #6 |
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Oh, I suppose I should mention that I remember a version of the quote to have "never read" any theology. I beginning to think that I might have simply misread the quote in the OP.
If the former quote does actually exist and predate the OP quote, would that change Dawkins' supporters' opinion of the OP quote? |
27th April 2013, 12:03 PM | #7 |
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I once read a quote from someone who proposed an actual useful function of the study of theology in combating the problems with certain expressions of religious belief.
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27th April 2013, 12:14 PM | #8 |
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How? Please be specific.
Here's the first five questions: In Sic et Non, Abelard presents 158 questions that present a theological assertion and allows its negation. The first five questions are: Must human faith be completed by reason, or not? Does faith deal only with unseen things, or not? Is there any knowledge of things unseen, or not? May one believe only in God alone, or not? Is God a single unitary being, or not? Maybe you could point out how any of these apply? |
27th April 2013, 03:19 PM | #9 |
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I am fairly certain Dawkins would have no problem with the arts - and if he had a negative one I am fairly dure many of his admirers woul be surprised and not go along with him on that. Religion does, to me, seem nothing but a performing art - and all too often one that tries to get it's followers to do things that, regardless of the religion's claims are actively evil: do their best to prevent abortions, try to restrict the rights of gays - or just harrass and/or kill them, harrass non-or different - believers, try to pass laws to force others to act according to the religious beliefs of the religious group, try to halt teaching of any FACTS that are proof that the religion has all sorts of science all wrong. I could go on, but these evils on their own fully justify Dawkins' shirt and a lot more like it!!!
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27th April 2013, 03:36 PM | #10 |
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27th April 2013, 03:36 PM | #11 |
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No. Theology is that which supports one or more gods with no more evidence than thinking up "proofs" that are nothing but words (akahilosophy).Therefore I fail to see what effect reading same would have unless the reader has a weak, easily influenced brain. Whether Dawkins has or not (and I presume he has), I am quite certain he got a good laugh out of it (I did when I did - during the same time period I was reading Durant's History of Civilization).
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27th April 2013, 03:46 PM | #12 |
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The word you're looking for is sophistry, not philosophy.
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27th April 2013, 04:01 PM | #13 |
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27th April 2013, 04:09 PM | #14 |
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LOL, yeah I seem to recall seeing that confusion before...
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27th April 2013, 04:19 PM | #15 |
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27th April 2013, 04:28 PM | #16 |
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When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni |
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27th April 2013, 04:54 PM | #17 |
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Theology: The study of the unknowable
It's as useful as a sand merchant at the beach. |
27th April 2013, 05:24 PM | #18 |
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27th April 2013, 05:27 PM | #19 |
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When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni |
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27th April 2013, 05:31 PM | #20 |
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Reconciling them with reality is a particularly generous interpretation of the goal of theology.
If theologians were interested in reality they'd use science rather than theology as the tool. It appears they are more interested in maintaining the facade of consistency between theology and reality within the limits of their own religious beliefs and prejudices. In that regard, its at best a dishonest endeavour from the start and clearly of no value to the non-believer, nor ultimately to the believer. |
27th April 2013, 05:35 PM | #21 |
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27th April 2013, 05:37 PM | #22 |
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27th April 2013, 05:40 PM | #23 |
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I tend to agree with Dennett's idea that theology grew out of the fact that holy scriptures were not very intellectually satisfying to more intelligent people in, say, medieval times who found it difficult to make sense of the way that the world is compared to the properties God was supposed to have. In order to rationalize belief in God all kinds of ingenious arguments were developed which in turn were found intellectually unsatisfying by other intelligent people who in turn made their own arguments that nonetheless failed to satisfy those who held to the first school of thought, and so on...
I don't think it was some Machiavellian scheme to fool the "weak minded", but rather a sincere effort to explain the way things were. Science was not really an option back then in the same way it is today. That said, I have sympathy with Dawkins who would rather cut through the Gordian knot of theology. |
27th April 2013, 05:42 PM | #24 |
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If you just want to say "I'm an atheist, and I don't care at all what believers do or think one way or the other", then no, it's probably not relevant. If you do care, though (especially if you care beyond simply wearing a t-shirt with a slogan that you bought on richarddawkins.net), then it is relevant.
You can choose to try and aggressively hector believers out of their belief as your solution, but I prefer a different method. |
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When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni |
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27th April 2013, 05:48 PM | #25 |
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Usually when Dawkins talks about theology in this context it has to do with what theology has produced as far as a discipline goes. Theology arguably does not provide improvements to infrastructure for example. By its very nature it inspects the spiritual implications throughout history. Dawkins would argue that does not help the grass to grow or the sun to shine.
So I actually agree with the quote provided that's the context. |
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27th April 2013, 05:50 PM | #26 |
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When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni |
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27th April 2013, 05:55 PM | #27 |
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Is Wikipedia definition OK?
Theology (from Greek Θεός meaning "God" and λόγος, -logy, meaning "study of") is the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and its influences and of the nature of religious truths, or the learned profession acquired by completing specialized training in religious studies, usually at a university or school of divinity or seminary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology If it is, first of all, there are couple of issues related to the definition and reality. Real rational, systematic studies of the concepts of god would usually end with the "not real" conclusion (OK, most probably, most likely not real). Despite of this, theologists (at least most of them) seem to behave as if god was something real. OK, at least their specific concepts of god, for a Christian theologist certainly will consider, for example, Maya theology as false. Another issue is that it seems lots of theologic discussions are not that different from discussions regarding works of fiction. The discussions about the relationships between God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are as connected to reality as discussions about the technology of Star Trek. Maybe even less. We could also add to this the fact that theology has been used as an excuse or a reason or a trigger for nasty things. However, other human enterprises have been used for this too. But starting a fight due to theologic disagreements seems (OK, nowadays) something rather silly. Despite all of this, theology is sold as reality and thus in many cases its comes too close of being a scam. I would see no problems at all with theology if it were "sold" as what it actually is: a part of mythology. |
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27th April 2013, 05:56 PM | #28 |
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You don't need to study theology to see what believers do and say. In fact, you won't actually find it there.
If I want to know why they do or say something I can ask them. Or listen when they tell me why they do or say it. That seems far more efficient than attempting to study the entirety of theology and then having to second guess which particular part of the contradictory messages contained within one particular believer is using to justify today's actions or words. I have no desire nor need to hector believers out of anything. However, if people promote idiocy then I am free to point it out as idiocy. I refuse to defer to superstitious nonsense out of some misguided respect for religion. My only concern is when theists try to enforce their beliefs on others. I don't need to study theology to identify when that is happening. Nor do I need to study theology to reject 'God says it is true' as a justification for anything at all. I have no crusade to eliminate religious belief, my crusade is to eliminate the influence of religion. |
27th April 2013, 05:59 PM | #29 |
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Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.
In any case, it's only one part of religious studies, not the be-all and end-all of it.
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27th April 2013, 06:31 PM | #30 |
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I do as well but honestly I think it's an irrelevant concept in regards to the quote. It's a whole other debate really.
Again I was trying to show that there is a specific context to which Dawkins usually makes these arguments; I believe the little quote block does not capture that context. Every time I've heard Dawkins discussing the failures of Theology such as when he talks about theology as a college study he opines that it's essentially damned useless as it does not promote knowledge but instead applies tautology to either past events or potential future events. I think a lot of scientists tend to find the discipline of Theology to at the very least not participate in human progression (whatever that means...) and at worst inhibit it. That's what I gather from the quote and Dawkin's previous discussions on the subject. DOMA is another issue with respect to Gould's Rock of Ages. Gould argues that the NOMA are conventional. Dawkins says that certain conventions in science give explanations that, under subjective criticisms in NOMA, would overlap. Because of this Dawkins has issues against NOMA. I think that's fine and would expect it considering that science works in continuum of discovery. It is not a static practice so its discoveries can provide new implications unlike theology* (or so I and others argue) cannot provide new implications but rather different interpretations from Scriptures and its exclusive discourse (such as RaMBaM in Judaism). *There is also an issue of Religious empiricism which by its nature DOES encroach on the Magisterium of science which Dawkins argues against; this is obvious though and I would assume that even Gould would agree with Dawkins on the issue if it were the only example. It is not though. ETA: To be clear this is the origin of the quote http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/88 The context is very clear here. I agree with his sentiment. |
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27th April 2013, 06:58 PM | #31 |
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27th April 2013, 08:36 PM | #32 |
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27th April 2013, 08:43 PM | #33 |
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Well if you consider the content of Dawkin's polemic in the context of the quote I don't see how it's apt. Hell it wouldn't matter who said it (by its own characteristics a polemic does not depend on its author for validity) so really the polemic of "Theology is less than or equal to zero for promotion of human progress by whatever scoring system being used (probably the true issue here anyways) and science is greater than 0 by any degree even in the presence of its horrors."
Under that definition which is probably the widest possible interpretation of it, I cannot determine what makes you feel your edit of the quote is apt. It doesn't even serve as a proper caricature. It serves as someone who has not really processed the quote either in its context or veracity; ie you don't know what it means or what it's referring to and in the spirit of ignorance you decided to draw a mustache on it and crack wise. |
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27th April 2013, 09:05 PM | #34 |
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Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that I'm defending theology? Because I'm actually not. I think both theology and Dawkin's atheist polemics are alike in their relative value to the human race (especially when compared to science). So yeah, still apt.
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ETA; this is really in response to the question posted at the opening of this thread, and it is certainly an apt commentary on that. That there is nothing factually wrong with it doesn't mean that there is anything of value in it either. Here is the context of the quote. I fail to see anything of any significant merit in the entire editorial save for the fact that it is not factually in error anywhere. Will people abandon their superstitions and turn their backs on the priests as a result of his platitudes? No. |
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27th April 2013, 09:11 PM | #35 |
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27th April 2013, 09:27 PM | #36 |
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27th April 2013, 09:42 PM | #37 |
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So let me get this straight. What you were trying to present by your edits was a caricature of "Dawkin's Polemics" being irrelevant is because regardless of the veracity of the facts, there is no value in it.
I have to disagree and in fact I would argue that such a position (I am assuming it is your position but it is a simplification so it may not be good enough) is the exact problem that Dawkin's article (and therefor the sentiments/context of the quote) rails against. There IS value in science at all times when it's a fact by empiricism rather than a fact by tautology (arguably the reason that Theology is considered useless to progress). I don't care what Dawkins has said; it doesn't matter who said it. What matters is whether it's correct. The factual veracity is what determines the value, not whether its in an echo chamber or "preaching to the converted". Also you do understand the difference between a polemic and a platitude right? It's as if your suggesting that Dawkin's Polemic was given as a platitude and I would say that with just the cute little quote from the OP and no context that probably would be a platitude (more like a cherry picked quote...) but the whole article gives a basis for it; a good one too. Hell I was the one who gave the source for it so please don't pretend I missed it. But here, let me condense what I'm saying. What you think about your little cutesy edit (and subsequent justification) is not apt, if anything it was worse after your justification because it both conflates platitude with polemic but also you're trying to dismiss it by saying that even though the content is factually correct it still has no value. The irony is that Dawkin's little article was specifically saying Theology provides no positive value (arguable I'm sure; it's a sentiment I don't agree with completely but 9/10 aint bad) AND is not correct. It's almost like you're making a statement that says "Your words are correct, but your message is useless" against an article that says "Theology's message is useless because it doesn't have efforts to be correct (empirically anyways and I again I think that's arguable but 9/10 aint bad)". I just think that's ironic and deserves to be mentioned. Just on so many levels I'm finding what you've said in this contribution from Dawkins and the generalized contributions from Dawkins to be well...it's as if he pisses you off about a few things and now that poisons everything he's done. That's just weird. He's contributed to dialogue among many disciplines. He's contributed to civil discourse which especially where I live was very difficult to have. The fact that he DOES have dialogues across the line (even if he loses) encourages theists to have the discussion because it's happened and the world has yet to explode basically. If you think he's been inside the echo chamber I will just have to disagree on that. |
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28th April 2013, 01:38 AM | #38 |
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