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10th May 2012, 02:41 PM | #521 |
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Are you familiar with Douglass Adams' 'Sentient Puddle' analogy?
You seem to think that life had to evolve on this planet. Current estimate place the number of stars in the universe at between 10 sextillion and 1 septillion. That's a staggering number of potential planetary systems that could harbor who knows what varieties of life. It may be highly unlikely for one individual to win the lottery, but when millions of people are buying tickets the odds that someone will win get pretty darn good. Acceptance of the fine tuning argument seems to go hand in hand with a poor understanding of probability and statistics. |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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10th May 2012, 02:45 PM | #522 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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10th May 2012, 02:46 PM | #523 |
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This is a common misconception, in fact the evidence you refer to for the naturalistic origin is only circumstantial we cannot determine if the same natural consistency is not the way a constructed universe would be. Due to our only having one example to study it is impossible to determine or compare with any other scenario.
Conforming to a natural law is not conclusive as to whether the origin is spontaneous or constructed, as either one is likely to conform to natural law. Back to 50/50 I'm afraid. |
10th May 2012, 02:48 PM | #524 |
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10th May 2012, 02:48 PM | #525 |
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10th May 2012, 02:50 PM | #526 |
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10th May 2012, 02:51 PM | #527 |
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If we had ANY evidence for a non-naturalistic event, then I would agree with you. As yet, none exist. As such, you have to explain WHY this is any different.
Name 1 single event that can not be explained by a natural mechanism. Put another way, if everything in the universe is easily explained by natural mechanisms, there is no reason to presume the universe itself isn't explained by natural mechanisms. to think otherwise is nothing other than special pleading. Statistics do not work that way. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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10th May 2012, 02:52 PM | #528 |
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10th May 2012, 02:52 PM | #529 |
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR
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Amazing.
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Would life be as we know it, no. again there is only so much stupid I can take |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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10th May 2012, 02:56 PM | #530 |
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These all fall into the constructed category. Glitch in the system might at first sound as though it would fall into either group, but in the spontaneous grouping it would just be a spontaneous or natural glitch.
Anyway look at these debates do they not polarise into these two camps? |
10th May 2012, 02:58 PM | #531 |
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10th May 2012, 02:58 PM | #532 |
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10th May 2012, 02:59 PM | #533 |
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10th May 2012, 03:01 PM | #534 |
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10th May 2012, 03:03 PM | #535 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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10th May 2012, 03:03 PM | #536 |
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10th May 2012, 03:04 PM | #537 |
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10th May 2012, 03:05 PM | #538 |
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I need to address this point from GIBHOR's link:
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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10th May 2012, 03:08 PM | #539 |
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calling it circumstantial doesn't make it so.
all events following the big bang are naturalistic. No supernatural argument has been needed. it takes a rather severe case of special pleading to claim that supernatural arguments are needed to intiate the universe, even if there is such a thing as initiating the universe. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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10th May 2012, 03:09 PM | #540 |
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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10th May 2012, 03:10 PM | #541 |
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On the question of whether my garbage cans are being torn into at night by raccoons or dragons, we have to acknowledge that we have plenty of evidence for raccoons and their proclivity for scavenging, but absolutely none for dragons. The same is true regarding the question of natural vs. supernatural causes. You can believe that the odds are 50/50 all you want, but that wouldn't stop you from failing any entry level course on probability and statistics.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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10th May 2012, 03:10 PM | #542 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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10th May 2012, 03:28 PM | #543 |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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10th May 2012, 03:31 PM | #544 |
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And it's therefore logical to assume a naturalistic explanation unless evidence for a non-naturalistic one presents itself.
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10th May 2012, 03:35 PM | #545 |
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Actually, it doesn't matter. Life existed on this planet long before the atmosphere contained oxygen. Contrary to what GIBHOR's source states, oxygen is not necessary for life.
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10th May 2012, 03:39 PM | #546 |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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10th May 2012, 04:09 PM | #547 |
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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10th May 2012, 06:16 PM | #548 |
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10th May 2012, 06:18 PM | #549 |
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Whoa... whoa... wait a minute. Time out.
The Bible says the Bible is true? Why is this the first time I'm hearing about this? Well this changes everything! X = True, Proof is X. It's mathematically sound people! |
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10th May 2012, 06:42 PM | #550 |
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10th May 2012, 06:43 PM | #551 |
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR
If your argument applies, any hypothetical creator must have had a creator, because otherwise it would have an infinite history, which this argument says is impossible. If the hypothetical creator does have a creator, that leads to an infinite regress. If the hypothetical creator does not have a creator, then you're engaging in special pleading, which is a fallacy. Applying your quoted argument to an already-existing universe, there can be no time. There is no upper limit on the number of events that can happen in a second. If you can't get into the infinite future by adding consecutive events, you can't get into a finite future (one second from now) either. However, I predict that you will be here a second from now. Still here? Your argument is refuted by observation. |
10th May 2012, 06:46 PM | #552 |
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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10th May 2012, 07:07 PM | #553 |
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No, most of us say that naturalism is a pragmatic stance, that does not fit the dichotomy at all. Many of us don't take an extreme stance, that is just more straw on GIBHOR's part.
It doesn't matter, as usual, if it is natural then it is natural, if it is not natural then it acts as though it is natural. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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10th May 2012, 07:08 PM | #554 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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10th May 2012, 07:12 PM | #555 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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10th May 2012, 07:13 PM | #556 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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10th May 2012, 07:55 PM | #557 |
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I disagree.
Obviously the probabilities *are* weighted, as there is no evidence for anything supernatural. So while the probabilities are unknown, you could make the case that they are heavily weighted towards "naturalistic". ETA: Actually, I would probably make the case that the supernatural doesn't exist by definition, as once something "supernatural" was identified and it's effects known, it is no longer "supernatural" - but I disgress..... |
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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10th May 2012, 09:29 PM | #558 |
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Back to the OP though.
This is a gene of from yeast naturalism helped people explain its function. Please show the relevant function without using the theory of evolution MKLDTSHMRYLTTDDFRVLQAVEQGSRSHEVVPTPLIHQISGMRSQSGTN RAISDLAKLSLISKMRNVKYDGYRLTYNGIDYLALKTMLNRDTVYSVGNT IGVGKESDIYKVSDKNGNPRVMKIHRLGRTSFHSVRNNRDYLKKSNQGAN WMHLSRLAANKEYQFMSMLYSKGFKVPEPFDNSRHIVVMELIEGYPMRRL RKHKNIPKLYSDLMCFIVDLANSGLIHCDFNEFNIMIKDKLEDENDCGFV VIDFPQCISIQHQDADYYFQRDVDCIRRFFKKKLKYEPKPDSSMLDTEGF GDGYKYAYPDFKRDVKRTDNLDELVQASGFSKKHPGDRGLETAVESMRNA VYNSDDDMSNDEAEEENGEGDYSEEDEYYDSELDNESSEDDSEDAQEEEN ERIIEALSSGVENLKMDKLGNYILE We know we need to run the clocks on our satellites slower than on earth to keep our GPS system working correctly. Please detail how much slower without using the naturalistic method. Data is transferred trough fiberoptic cables. These are made of translucent material that still manages to contain light. Explain how this works without using the naturalistic method We know nuclear fusion of deuterium is possible (unless you subscribe to the "nuclear weapons are fake" CT). Explain how without using the naturalistic method. We know it is possible to burn a fuel and turn it into work. Explain how without using the naturalistic method. Electrical current and magnetic fields are connected. Explain how without using the naturalistic method. Why does water have a boiling point far higher than the weight of a water molecule would allow? Explain how without using the naturalistic method. These are just a minute amount of questions which the o so reviled naturalistic method had no problems answering and predicting. Reading a religious text, not so much. As for your "why does the puddle of water fit the hole" questions. Of course we are well adapted to life on this planet in this universe. Nothing in the naturalistic method would suggest otherwise. Now if we were to find life where current scientific knowledge would suggest none could exist, THAT would be a good indication of a supernatural entity. Can you show us a forest on the moon, where your god keeps an atmosphere intact in defiance of all natural laws? Until you do that, to me naturalism is far more convincing that someones (pre) bronze age myths and legends. |
10th May 2012, 10:18 PM | #559 |
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10th May 2012, 10:55 PM | #560 |
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