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10th May 2012, 10:56 PM | #561 |
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What an interesting reaction.
Why not drop that ridiculous 'strawman' argument and actually talk about why you think morality is evidence of a creator god?
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11th May 2012, 12:30 AM | #562 |
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11th May 2012, 12:31 AM | #563 |
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Who said anything about supernatural?
I said constructed. I repeat what I said in my first reply, in each case A or B the result may be a naturalistic universe. Unfortunately as we don't know the basis of the existence of this naturalistic universe, we are not in a position to conclude whether it was constructed or not, or it arose spontaneously or not. We cannot observe it from the outside as a cohesive whole. Our models only describe it on the inside (the phenomena we can detect). |
11th May 2012, 12:34 AM | #564 |
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Just look at the history of posts. He is into acting balmy and suave. And I think he really believes that stems from his faith/belief in that he is at peace with himself.
He will not ever entertain the thought that he is self-deluded into the same state of 'happiness/bliss/one-ness' of every single cult-member on the planet. No matter, harmless person, provides comic relief. |
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"All is needed (and it is essential to my definitions) is to understand the actuality beyond the description, for example: Nothing is actually" - Doron Shadmi "But this means you actually have nothing." - Realpaladin --- |
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11th May 2012, 12:35 AM | #565 |
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Then why add the supernatural? Why not stick with what has been shown to work pretty darn well?
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11th May 2012, 12:41 AM | #566 |
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If you mean poe's law no.
I'm pointing out that all this naturalistic evidence we have that the universe arose through naturalistic processes does not address the philosophical questions about the origin of the world we find ourselves in at all. It is an unfounded assumption that because its all naturalistic, therefore its not constructed, or therefore it arose spontaneously. |
11th May 2012, 12:43 AM | #567 |
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11th May 2012, 12:48 AM | #568 |
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11th May 2012, 12:50 AM | #569 |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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11th May 2012, 02:24 AM | #570 |
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Because, like the vast majority of people who profess to believe in a religion, they start from a naturalistic morality derived from the Golden Rule, then re-interpret their scripture so as to bolster the morality they have already chosen independently of any religious belief.
Dave |
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11th May 2012, 02:26 AM | #571 |
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The crux of my point is that to discuss any unknown gods in relation to the origin of our universe is pure speculation. Also it is just as much a speculation to discuss a natural spontaneous origin.
If one speculates on two kinds of origin, you are effectively dividing the infinite possible alternatives into two groups or sets. Same with three alternatives etc. The probability is a function of the number of alternatives under speculation. My point is that no one origin or group of origins is more or less likely than any other. We cannot conclude an exclusively natural origin due to the evidence we have from science, because any other origin would result in the same apparently natural reality known to science. To speculate on the unknown origin of existence is to consider what occurs beyond our current understanding of existence. Which in turn results in the naturalistic universe known to science. In each case the empirical evidence is identical. |
11th May 2012, 03:08 AM | #572 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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11th May 2012, 03:17 AM | #573 |
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They are not constants of the universe. Of course they could be different and I will bet you that the universe contains planets and planet systems representing any concivable combination of the planetary parameters. Are you going to suggest that the fact that we live on one of the inhabitable planets is a sign of God?
The basic constants of the universe, OTOH, like the charge of an electron, the mass of a proton, the speed of light, the gravity constant, etc. Those are the ones that might render the whole universe uninhabitable, but we don't know if they can attain other values or not. Hans |
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11th May 2012, 03:19 AM | #574 |
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Which has been explained to to the point of absurdity is an absolutely meaningless statement.
"We don't know the unknowns" does NOT mean that everything unknown has an equal probability of being the correct answer. You have spent the whole of this and a half dozen other threads trying to justify why you think there is some magical point in our knowledge where simply making stuff up is acceptable. You are wrong. It never is.
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11th May 2012, 03:59 AM | #575 |
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ANswered above, but, let's LOOK at those factors:
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First of all, the 'surface' gravity of Jupiter is only about 2.5g. As far as gravity is concerned, a human could survive there, albeit with considerable hardness (there are other reasons why it would be a bad idea, however). Secondly, life originated in water. For marine beings, gravity is of little importance.
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Also, water is a very common substance in the universe.
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1) Last first: We have no idea about the composition of the atmosphere of any planets except those in our own solar system. All observations indicate that there are billions of planets in the universe. 2) The composition of Earth's atmosphere is NOT a condition for life, it is a RESULT of life. If there was no life on Earth, there would be no free oxygen.
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I think this nicely sums up the credibility of your source, and thereby also answers the question you have asked me earlier: Why do I discard Creationst sources? - Simply because they are worthless. Hans |
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11th May 2012, 04:12 AM | #576 |
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re: "fine tuned" universe and improbability
What are the odds of humans observing a universe in which humans exist? What are the odds of humans observing a universe in which humans do not exist? |
11th May 2012, 04:31 AM | #577 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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11th May 2012, 04:35 AM | #578 |
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You ever get the impression that when Woo Slingers use the term "unknown" they seem to think it means "The land where everything I want to believe in but don't have evidence of lives?"
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11th May 2012, 04:47 AM | #579 |
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11th May 2012, 05:02 AM | #580 |
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mentions of the fine tuned universe remind me of the Douglas Adams analogy of a puddle in a hole in the ground thinking the hole must have been intelligently designed to fit it perfectly. The universe isn't fine tuned to us. We are fine tune to the universe.
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11th May 2012, 05:08 AM | #581 |
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Pishposh. Our hands obviously evolved to fit into gloves. You're gonna tell me that it's pure coincidence that my gloves have 4 fingers and a thumb and my hands have 4 fingers and a thumb? What are the odds of that?
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11th May 2012, 05:56 AM | #582 |
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11th May 2012, 06:30 AM | #583 |
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11th May 2012, 06:38 AM | #584 |
a carbon based life-form
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11th May 2012, 06:43 AM | #585 |
a carbon based life-form
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11th May 2012, 06:57 AM | #586 |
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11th May 2012, 07:04 AM | #587 |
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11th May 2012, 07:08 AM | #588 |
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11th May 2012, 07:19 AM | #589 |
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There are completely brainless creatures on Earth that assemble DNA (and every other chemical they need) from raw, non living, materials by completely natural chemical mechanisms. On planet Earth this happens octillions, maybe nonillions, of times per day. We don't know how it happened the first time but we know for a fact it can happen naturally, because it does, constantly.
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11th May 2012, 07:59 AM | #590 |
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Which of course leads to the fact that 99.99999999999999999999(add lots and lots more 9s)% of the universe is hostile to humans. Which is what you would expect if life was a "chance" occurrence in the universe. If the universe had been designed by God the question is why did he make so much of it hostile to the humans he made it for? (Yeah I know the answer "He works in mysterious ways!" or a "It is not for us to know the mind of God!" )
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11th May 2012, 08:24 AM | #591 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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11th May 2012, 08:27 AM | #592 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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11th May 2012, 09:15 AM | #593 |
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11th May 2012, 10:02 AM | #594 |
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I think what punshhh is saying is that someone/something could have created our universe (with all its inherent properties/laws) and that would appear just the same to us as a universe that is be explained by "naturalism".
If that is what he (sorry punshhh if you are a she) is saying then of course the weakness in his approach is that there is a fundamental difference between the two that we could in principle detect or understand i.e. the interface between our universe and those that created it. It's the universe equivalent of "dualism" - and it shares the same logical inconsistency that dualism does i.e. if it interacts with the "natural" then it is part of the natural and subject to discovery. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th May 2012, 12:11 PM | #595 |
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Forget the universe, we can't even survive on the majority of our planet. And those bits we can survive on is mostly down to us swaddling ourselves in fabrics, retreating in to constructed heated shelter to sleep, and applying chemical and physical barriers against the sun's effects on our skin and eyes.
How is even this planet fine-tuned to accommodate us? Seems to me like we're pretty well adapted for surviving somewhere hot (large surface area to volume ratio, little body hair) with maybe the odd tree here and there (like, say, the African savannah), and that most of the fine-tuning is us fine-tuning our environment to suit. But, if anyone truly believes that the Earth is fine-tuned for our survival and that we were given dominion over the Earth, I invite them to stand naked in Antarctica and report back to me how well that works out for them. Seem like a silly suggestion? Thousands of penguins and seals do exactly that every day. It couldn't be the case that Antarctica is fine-tuned for penguins, could it? |
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11th May 2012, 12:18 PM | #596 |
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11th May 2012, 12:19 PM | #597 |
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So yeah it's sooooooo incrediably unlikely that we can survive.
On 1/3rd of one planet. In one solar system. In one local cluster. In one arm. Of one Galaxy. |
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11th May 2012, 12:20 PM | #598 |
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GIBHOR has turned into a cricket
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11th May 2012, 12:21 PM | #599 |
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11th May 2012, 12:23 PM | #600 |
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley
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"All is needed (and it is essential to my definitions) is to understand the actuality beyond the description, for example: Nothing is actually" - Doron Shadmi "But this means you actually have nothing." - Realpaladin --- |
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