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9th May 2012, 12:39 AM | #321 |
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By just saying that you have proven yourself wrong.
You need to absolutely provide proof that in Nature nothing ever could arise from nothing. Unless you claim to completely, without any gap in knowledge, claim to be able to explain how Nature works. As long as you can not refute this, anything else you may mention is moot. |
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9th May 2012, 12:43 AM | #322 |
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Evidence of this assertion, especially the 'we don't need to learn it' part? I think I could pick anyone off the street and find a situation where they'd say all of the above is acceptable. Where that line is drawn is different for everyone.
And of course, even if was true it could just as much be a result of biology and evolution as anything else. No supernatural explanation required. |
9th May 2012, 03:12 AM | #323 |
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9th May 2012, 03:14 AM | #324 |
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9th May 2012, 03:14 AM | #325 |
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9th May 2012, 03:16 AM | #326 |
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9th May 2012, 03:16 AM | #327 |
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9th May 2012, 03:19 AM | #328 |
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9th May 2012, 03:19 AM | #329 |
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9th May 2012, 03:21 AM | #330 |
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As has been pointed out to you several times arleady, that last statement is wrong.
It has been experimentally found that you can get something from nothing. Hence the very assumption on which you base your god is not correct. Furthermore, even if something has existed forever, why would it be intelligent? Lastly, naturalistic explanations have given us the technological and medical base without which current society would literally not exist. While the scientific methods might not have given us every answer yet, there is no reason to assume that any answer is totally beyond reach. Maybe WE won't get to know them, but our descendants might. What answers has religion given us? What predictive value has god? |
9th May 2012, 03:21 AM | #331 |
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9th May 2012, 03:25 AM | #332 |
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So how do you deal with the second law of thermodynamics ? If the universe had no beginning, why are we not in a state of heath death ?
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9th May 2012, 03:28 AM | #333 |
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9th May 2012, 03:29 AM | #334 |
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9th May 2012, 03:31 AM | #335 |
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fist of all, to argue the universe is not finely tuned is ridiculous. That is a scientific , undisputed fact.
Secondly, the quotes are from reknown scientists, they do not just reflect unsubstantiated opinions, but opinions based on FACTS. You should do your homework, before argue, the universe is not finely tuned to life. |
9th May 2012, 03:36 AM | #336 |
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oh sure........
http://www.reasons.org/design/solar-...earth-apr-2004
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what amazing faith you have in chance...... http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...e-really-a-god
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9th May 2012, 03:39 AM | #337 |
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9th May 2012, 03:40 AM | #338 |
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9th May 2012, 03:42 AM | #339 |
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9th May 2012, 03:44 AM | #340 |
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9th May 2012, 04:12 AM | #341 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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9th May 2012, 04:19 AM | #342 |
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So you believe that god is absolutely nothing.
So there are different levels of nothing now? seems like there's track marks from this goal post shift. Well, then, you now admit that things DO come from nothing. So your entire premise if false and argument defeated. Excellent. So we are back to the beginning. Why do you think a supernatural argument is any better than a natural one? |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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9th May 2012, 04:25 AM | #343 |
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by using calculus.
because we stocked up on mars bars. Well, as you already agreed that time started with the big bang as well, your comment is illogical. How can you "exist" without a time and space to exist in? so says the puddle. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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9th May 2012, 04:30 AM | #344 |
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR
- For one, you cannot differentiate between the very vaguely defined concept of a God, and the also very vague concept of any entity that is not-universe and not-God. Bait and switch tactics won't cut it; tossing in free will (as Craig does) is to commit suicide. - Another problem would be evidence. Merely showing off a few logically 'possible' ... errr ... possibilities is one thing. Producing evidence (in whichever form) is another thing entirely. Put differently, how can an entity sufficiently described as God produce universes from nothing? You have no case. Plus, you really have to watch out that you do not unwittingly cannibalize your own arguments, e.g. that all of a sudden it is apparantly possible for stuff to come from nothing. I mean, creation ex nihilo, huh?? |
9th May 2012, 04:42 AM | #345 |
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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9th May 2012, 04:45 AM | #346 |
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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9th May 2012, 04:46 AM | #347 |
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GIBHOR did you know that matter and anti-matter are created constantly, even in a vacuum, and then immediately destroyed?
Energy in the space is transformed into matter and anti-matter, which immediately collide and become energy once again. They've tested it. Multiple times. They've recorded it's effects. |
9th May 2012, 04:50 AM | #348 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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9th May 2012, 04:51 AM | #349 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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9th May 2012, 04:57 AM | #350 |
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But that is assuming a huge range of freedom in the natural constants:
_this is the error that both Smolin and Penrose make Without empirical data you can not just give a freedom of say 10,000x to a factor, or 1,000 or 100. It is just as like that physical constants are constrained (read the first part of The Inflationary Universe by Guth) as that they have huge degrees of freedom. So his 10^50 could really be 10^5, now couldn't it? And given the possibility of an almost infinite number of inflationary space times, those are pretty good speculative odds. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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9th May 2012, 05:21 AM | #351 |
a carbon based life-form
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9th May 2012, 05:32 AM | #352 |
a carbon based life-form
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9th May 2012, 06:04 AM | #353 |
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No, GIBHOR.
You're indulging in special pleading here. But you knew that, right? "If ist social conditioning, then its learned. But the sense of morals is independent of in which society somemone lives. " I'm interested in knowing where you got that idea. Could you source it, please? |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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9th May 2012, 06:34 AM | #354 |
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What is forever? You seem to have an all too common misconception regarding the nature of time as currently understood. We have no indication that time goes back forever. As far as we can tell, time and space, for this universe at least, only go back as far as the Big Bang. There is no evidence for such a thing as 'before' the Big Bang.
Imagine a sphere as an analogy for our universe. We'll have to reduce the number of dimensions so as to fit it into our experience. Let's reduce the spatial dimensions to two and imagine that time is the third dimension, perpendicular to the spatial dimensions. Space and time are really the same thing, but for reasons we do not yet understand we perceive them differently. If Mr. Square inhabits our imaginary universe, he will only perceive the two spatial dimensions in a plane perpendicular to the time dimension, but he will, in fact, be moving through time as well. Although he thinks of himself and his universe as two dimensional, he actually exists in three dimensions. If we were to curve the space/time of our model in other dimensions, it could become unbounded yet finite, like the 2D surface of a 3D sphere. So let's take a step back and look at our little 3D universe model. There is no space/time outside of it. It exists as finite and unbounded. Even though Mr. Square can perceive of time and has memories that enable him to form a concept of the past, it doesn't mean that he can go backward in time infinitely. He can only go as far as his Big Bang event where matter and energy are concentrated in the spatial dimensions, in a little circular plane near one 'pole' of his universe. Just because he experiences movement through time, it doesn't follow that he can move through it infinitely, and it doesn't follow that his universe crossed some transition from nonexistence to existence. It simply is. This highly simplified illustrational model is one possible explanation for the nature of our universe. The notion that it had to have a moment of creation is far from being established as fact. Another possibility is that our universe was generated by natural forces, and while it seems to have arisen from 'nothing', it actually arose from matter and energy in another universe. One very interesting observation is that when you run the equations for a black hole backward, it looks a lot like equations for the Big Bang. Our universe may exist within the event horizon of a black hole in another universe. This idea of a 'multiverse' is remarkable, but given the history of understanding of our own universe, it really shouldn't shock us to have our status demoted even further. In short, there are an number of possible naturalistic explanations for the existence of our universe. Your arguments from personal incredulity fall flat. The universe has a way of confounding our intuitions about how it should behave. Stars are born and die, continents drift, space can be bent and time can pass at different rates for observers in two different frames of reference, and virtual particles can be generated and destroyed from seemingly nothing. In fact, at the quantum level, things get really weird. Saying, "I can't believe it" says more about your ignorance of science and lack of imagination than it does about the nature of the universe. |
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9th May 2012, 06:36 AM | #355 |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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9th May 2012, 06:40 AM | #356 |
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9th May 2012, 06:48 AM | #357 |
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You really need to get past this false dichotomy in stating that the universe either had a discrete beginning separating states of nonexistence from existence, or that it must be temporally eternal, with time going back infinitely into the past. I realize that it's a counterintuitive concept, but if you really think about it, you can understand, fundamentally, how the universe might exist in a completely self contained state, both finite and unbounded.
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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9th May 2012, 06:51 AM | #358 |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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9th May 2012, 07:07 AM | #359 |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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9th May 2012, 07:17 AM | #360 |
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