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Old 28th May 2020, 07:57 PM   #41
Arcade22
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I made another thread about a attack in Canada against a "erotic massage parlour" by a 17 year old that the prosecutor is treating as terrorism.

Quote:
The decision by Canadian authorities to lay*terror charges in the case of a deadly stabbing believed to be fuelled by a hatred of women could finally force a reckoning of the country's definition of terrorism,*with legal minds on various sides*grappling with exactly what counts as an ideological motive, national security experts say.

The charges announced Tuesday in connection with the killing of 24-year-old*Ashley Noell Arzaga at a Toronto erotic massage parlour*represent the first time police have treated an alleged incel-inspired attack as an act of terrorism.*

Since Criminal Code offences for terrorism were first introduced in 2001, 56 out of the 57 terror charges laid in Canada have been in cases of Islamist-inspired extremism, Leah West, former Department of Justice lawyer and national security expert at Carleton University, told CBC News.*

Until now, just one has*been laid in connection with another ideology*— in 2008, when a Toronto-area man was charged with raising funds for a Tamil militant group.

"Ideology is not*defined in the Criminal*Code and this will be one of the interesting things that prosecutors have to face in bringing these charges, because they're trying to prove that the incel movement is an ideology," West said.

"So how they choose to define that and prove that will be the real interesting element of this prosecution."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rism-1.5577015

So how exactly would incels motivate attacking sex workers? I'm guessing that the target was not chosen randomly.
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:25 PM   #42
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I made another thread about a attack in Canada against a "erotic massage parlour" by a 17 year old that the prosecutor is treating as terrorism.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rism-1.5577015

So how exactly would incels motivate attacking sex workers? I'm guessing that the target was not chosen randomly.
Without knowing what exactly leads the police to connect that particular attack with incel, it's difficult to say.

I know that the incel ideology looks down on sex workers and those who make use of them. Suggesting that an incel could have all the sex he wanted if he just hired a prostitute tends to enrage them - which is why, by the way, your earlier suggestion of perhaps dealing with this problem by legalizing prostitution would not work in practice; incels consider the idea debasing, "using" a woman that has already been used countless times by other men is beneath them.

But I don't know if that would motivate an attack against a massage parlor. It could just as easily be that such an establishment was the most obvious or convenient target for this individual that he could be reasonably confident would have a number of women all in one place to attack.

This case is especially sad to me, because 17 is far too young for a person to be resigning themselves to never having a girlfriend. This boy was targeted and radicalized.
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Old Yesterday, 02:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I made another thread about a attack in Canada against a "erotic massage parlour" by a 17 year old that the prosecutor is treating as terrorism.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rism-1.5577015

So how exactly would incels motivate attacking sex workers? I'm guessing that the target was not chosen randomly.
Because incels aren't just lonely men. It's a deeply misogynistic ideology. Many hate promiscuous women and a liberal society that allows them to be promiscuous without consequence.

In the spaces I've ventured into, incels often react very negatively to the suggestion that they visit sex workers. They feel the suggestion is an insult to them.
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Old Yesterday, 08:07 AM   #44
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Of course the term probably covers a lot of territory, and may even sometimes be misapplied, but the little investigation I've seen of "incel" culture suggests that along with being deeply misogynist to the point of approving of rape and murder, the ideas underlying it are flamboyantly, mind-bogglingly stupid and crazy. Any attempt to apply rationality to incel thought is destined to fail.
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Old Yesterday, 09:00 AM   #45
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I think there's a case to be made for a kind of pipeline to extremism.

I also think that the way that incels and male "betas" and socially inept males are treated in general gives even non-hateful people (I would argue most people who lack sex/intimacy are not themselves hateful) an incentive to find the toxic subcultures, where such extremism forms. After all, they're not treated with kindness or much consideration elsewhere. Shaming language, like claiming they feel "entitled to woman's bodies" or similar I think is inaccurate for the majority. Perhaps this entitlement grows in these toxic echo-chambers, but even then I think most don't feel entitled but simply miserable - lack of intimacy and human connection (and online echo chambers don't give much of a connection, I think) lead to depression and I think likely a causal factor in hatred/nihilism.

I don't write very well, but I hope what I said makes sense.

I think the "I have the right to rape woman" idea isn't a majority position even among the most depressed of this people. People want to be WANTED, generally. That's not really what rape or sexual violence entails.

Of course, there will be those who are that extreme.

Last edited by pharphis; Yesterday at 09:02 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:09 AM   #46
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I have to disagree with you there, pharphis.

"Incels" aren't simply "that set of men who haven't found girlfriends or had sex before". Or even, "that set of men who are as above and are depressed about it".

"Incel" is a self-proclaimed identity that is attached to a particular ideology. While there isn't exactly a rote scripture proclaiming their exact beliefs in every detail, there are certain general tenets that are common to self-proclaimed incels:

- The natural order is for men to dominate women and choose wives, and for women to accept these choices and obey their husbands; liberals and women's rights movements have destroyed this natural order and stolen men's birthright.

- Women are biologically programmed to only desire men who fit a highly specific physiological shape profile. This is how incels refute the notion that their toxic personality, or anything else about themselves that is within their control to change, is responsible for their lack of luck with women. (This biological programming doesn't exonerate women, by the way; succumbing to it makes them shallow and animalistic)

- Women will occasionally date or marry men outside the preferred shape-profile but only ever for money; such men are "betas", and are also "cucks" because their wives will invariably cheat on them and have sex with men who do fit the profile. Incels consider "betas" to be pathetic and sellouts.

- Incels are highly judgmental of every aspect of women, from looks to personality to career choices to demographic identity. Psychologically I suppose this could be interpreted as a vindictive turnabout for the judgments they feel women have been making about them all their lives.

The common theme is that incels aren't merely subject to falling to extremism, they ARE the extremists. They are way past the feeling miserable stage; they've fixated on using pseudoscience to explain their "predicament" and eliminate any personal culpability for it, reject notions like "intimacy" and "human connection" as fictions used by women to manipulate men, and now proclaim to reject sex even if offered (as if it would be).
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 AM   #47
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Well many people might not be self proclaimed 'incel', but may be involuntarily celibate. Should they feel included in 'incels' or not ?
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Old Yesterday, 12:12 PM   #48
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Not.
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Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM   #49
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well many people might not be self proclaimed 'incel', but may be involuntarily celibate. Should they feel included in 'incels' or not ?
No.
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Old Yesterday, 12:59 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No.
I would agree. Although the term may once have been a simple description of status, it now denotes a philosophy that involves much more. To be involuntarily celibate is no longer to be an incel, and to call oneself an incel carries a good deal of implication.

One might compare it to "antifa," which has gone beyond its initial meaning of opposing fascism to mean an incendiary radical left activism that goes well beyond actual anti-fascism.
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Old Yesterday, 01:20 PM   #51
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would agree. Although the term may once have been a simple description of status, it now denotes a philosophy that involves much more.
That may be. I'm not aware that the term "involuntarily celibate" was widely used by anyone until incels as a group started doing so.
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Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That may be. I'm not aware that the term "involuntarily celibate" was widely used by anyone until incels as a group started doing so.
There's some reporting about the woman who coined the term. She started a sort of online community and support group that was mostly about people dealing with loneliness and the difficulty of forming romantic relationships. She left the group and moved on to other things only to discover it had become a toxic cess-pit years later.

Funny that most modern incels would probably insist that a woman cannot be an incel.

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/20...inition-reddit
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Old Yesterday, 06:05 PM   #53
pharphis
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I have to disagree with you there, pharphis.

"Incels" aren't simply "that set of men who haven't found girlfriends or had sex before". Or even, "that set of men who are as above and are depressed about it".

"Incel" is a self-proclaimed identity that is attached to a particular ideology. While there isn't exactly a rote scripture proclaiming their exact beliefs in every detail, there are certain general tenets that are common to self-proclaimed incels:

- The natural order is for men to dominate women and choose wives, and for women to accept these choices and obey their husbands; liberals and women's rights movements have destroyed this natural order and stolen men's birthright.

- Women are biologically programmed to only desire men who fit a highly specific physiological shape profile. This is how incels refute the notion that their toxic personality, or anything else about themselves that is within their control to change, is responsible for their lack of luck with women. (This biological programming doesn't exonerate women, by the way; succumbing to it makes them shallow and animalistic)

- Women will occasionally date or marry men outside the preferred shape-profile but only ever for money; such men are "betas", and are also "cucks" because their wives will invariably cheat on them and have sex with men who do fit the profile. Incels consider "betas" to be pathetic and sellouts.

- Incels are highly judgmental of every aspect of women, from looks to personality to career choices to demographic identity. Psychologically I suppose this could be interpreted as a vindictive turnabout for the judgments they feel women have been making about them all their lives.

The common theme is that incels aren't merely subject to falling to extremism, they ARE the extremists. They are way past the feeling miserable stage; they've fixated on using pseudoscience to explain their "predicament" and eliminate any personal culpability for it, reject notions like "intimacy" and "human connection" as fictions used by women to manipulate men, and now proclaim to reject sex even if offered (as if it would be).
So, I don't completely disagree with you...

Where I do is that I think either or both of us guilty of pulling a motte and bailey in some sense. These days, I see "incel" used as a label thrown at men to shame them (not based on self-description, but as a catch-all for men who disagree with women or even the zeitgeist on gender relations). It's not quite to the level of "nerd" (nerds are mostly cool, now) or "virgin" (this is a class male sex shaming label), but is a bit more like "neckbeard"; applied with impunity. Of course, neckbeard implies loser/loner/nerd archetypes, not maniacal killers or haters of women. So the word has a lot of bite.

This is part of my reason for disliking the connection between the most extreme acts of those who are incels with the term "incel" as if that is the defining characteristic/ideology.
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Old Yesterday, 06:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's some reporting about the woman who coined the term. She started a sort of online community and support group that was mostly about people dealing with loneliness and the difficulty of forming romantic relationships. She left the group and moved on to other things only to discover it had become a toxic cess-pit years later.

Funny that most modern incels would probably insist that a woman cannot be an incel.

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/20...inition-reddit
Women created this evil, now they must create a way to fight it.
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