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Tags Edward de Vere , Shakespeare conspiracies , william shakespeare

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Old 22nd August 2019, 07:18 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So, I just kind of skimmed the thread so maybe this has been answered but:

1. What was/is the motive for hiding the true identity of the person who wrote Shakespeare's play's?
So that 400 years later really clever people can make money selling books about it. It's a long game.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:06 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So, I just kind of skimmed the thread so maybe this has been answered but:

1. What was/is the motive for hiding the true identity of the person who wrote Shakespeare's play's?
Even Stratfordians agree that William Cecil, Lord Burghley, was the model for Polonius in Hamlet (Cecil was sometimes mockingly called Pondus by his peers), thus Cecil's character was assassinated, figuratively and literally, in the play. This was unknown publicly at the time, only recognised and acknowledged centuries later.

In the shorter, earlier "quarto" versions the character's name was Corambis which derived from "two-hearted" (two-faced) - Burghley's motto was "one heart, one way". It would seem that Shakespeare had a distinct dislike, perhaps a personal dislike, of the man.

This is only one of the most overt examples of Shakespeare's mocking of members of the Elizabethan elite (once the pattern is recognised, the plays seem to be full of them), and was imperative that the public never became aware of it. Hence it was expedient to make it seem as if the plays sprang purely from the imagination of a man with no connections to or knowledge of the court and the elite, preferably one who lived a good distance from London.


Quote:
2. What is the motive of those who deny it was Shakespeare? Most other conspiracist motives are relatively obvious. Denying some random nut can change history by killing a famous or powerful person, denying that the NAZI's really were that bad, not admitting that your sacred text is actually wrong about a lot of things. Who cares if it wasn't actually a guy named Shakespeare and why do they care?
That isn't really a question, is it?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:20 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
This is only one of the most overt examples of Shakespeare's mocking of members of the Elizabethan elite (once the pattern is recognised, the plays seem to be full of them), and was imperative that the public never became aware of it.
That sounds somewhat contradictory.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:40 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That sounds somewhat contradictory.
Not at all. The elite themselves were perfectly well aware of who and what the author was referring to.

How about Macbeth? A regicide with Beth in his name? On pain of death, no-one at the time would dare to even hint that they saw Elizabeth as a regicide for her signing of Mary Stuart's death warrant, but somehow Shakespeare got away with it.

And the deposition scene in which Richard II gave up his crown, again verboten, but performed on the eve of the Essex Rebellion? The troupe who performed it hauled up in court to explain themselves, but the author never even mentioned by the authorities?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:43 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Not at all. The elite themselves were perfectly well aware of who and what the author was referring to.
And so secrecy was apparently neither important nor observed.

And you know this how?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:51 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post

How about Macbeth? A regicide with Beth in his name? On pain of death, no-one at the time would dare to even hint that they saw Elizabeth as a regicide for her signing of Mary Stuart's death warrant, but somehow Shakespeare got away with it.
Probably because the name had nothing to do with Elizabeth and was based on a (historically inaccurate) tale about the actual King Macbeth.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:51 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That sounds somewhat contradictory.
There was plenty of ambivalence toward de Vere - in the 1570's he was Elizabeth's 'favourite', but after his fall from grace (in fact total disgrace) it appears that she probably intervened on his behalf and even saved him from his mortal enemies on multple occasions.

To this day no-one - except Oxfordians - have offered a plausible explaination as to why she granted him an 'annuity' of £1000 per year (a lot of money even for an Earl) which was paid unfailingly for nearly two decades of her reign, and then even renewed by James, who referred to him as "Great Oxford".
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:52 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Probably because the name had nothing to do with Elizabeth and was based on a (historically inaccurate) tale about the actual King Macbeth.
You know nothing about this.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:54 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And so secrecy was apparently neither important nor observed.

And you know this how?
Like i said, I'm not bothering with any pointless back-and-forths with you conformists.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:57 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Like i said, I'm not bothering with any pointless back-and-forths with you conformists.
In other words, you will only engage those who accept your claims uncritically. What are you doing on this forum, then? Go to 4chan or something.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
You know nothing about this.
Neither do you, that's the beauty of it.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:57 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
You know nothing about this.
Arrogance is not evidence.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:02 AM   #132
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Before anyone chimes in that Macbeth wasn't published or performed in Elizabeth's lifetime, there are unambiguous references to a play about a "Tragedy Of The King of Scots" as far back as the 1580's which (like many others) is held to be an "influence" on the later Shakespeare plays, but were likely just earlier versions performed only for audiences at places like Grays Inn, the court and the universities.

Most of the plays were revised and polished mulitple times, not least to render them suitable for the public stage, some over decades.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:07 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Before anyone chimes in that Macbeth wasn't published or performed in Elizabeth's lifetime, there are unambiguous references to a play about a "Tragedy Of The King of Scots" as far back as the 1580's which (like many others) is held to be an "influence" on the later Shakespeare plays, but were likely just earlier versions performed only for audiences at places like Grays Inn, the court and the universities.

Most of the plays were revised and polished multiple times, not least to render them suitable for the public stage, some over decades.
Why do you act like this is a shocking thing? Most plays were re-vamps or re-imaginings of other plays and stories. Romeo and Juliet is based on a translated Italian story, which in turn may have been derived from Greek Tragedies.

The play as played show multiple characteristics of Shakespeare knowing the skill level of his company, something de Vere would have had no clue of. Examples of this have been given with other plays in this thread.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:17 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Before anyone chimes in that Macbeth wasn't published or performed in Elizabeth's lifetime, there are unambiguous references to a play about a "Tragedy Of The King of Scots" as far back as the 1580's which (like many others) is held to be an "influence" on the later Shakespeare plays, but were likely just earlier versions performed only for audiences at places like Grays Inn, the court and the universities.

Most of the plays were revised and polished mulitple times, not least to render them suitable for the public stage, some over decades.
Sorry, I'm not bothering with any pointless back-and-forths with you revisionists.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:20 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Why do you act like this is a shocking thing? Most plays were re-vamps or re-imaginings of other plays and stories.
Especially before copyright laws, and then even today there's a LOT of 'inspiration' going around.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:29 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
[it] was imperative that the public never became aware of it.
Evidence that this was the case?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:41 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Even Stratfordians agree that William Cecil, Lord Burghley, was the model for Polonius in Hamlet
No they don't. It's one theory, and a reasonable one, but certainly not universally accepted.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:39 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So, I just kind of skimmed the thread so maybe this has been answered but:

1. What was/is the motive for hiding the true identity of the person who wrote Shakespeare's play's?

2. What is the motive of those who deny it was Shakespeare? Most other conspiracist motives are relatively obvious. Denying some random nut can change history by killing a famous or powerful person, denying that the NAZI's really were that bad, not admitting that your sacred text is actually wrong about a lot of things. Who cares if it wasn't actually a guy named Shakespeare and why do they care?
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/22/114801...ip-controversy
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:06 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
8enotto, I really like much of what you say and I think you're a fine mechanic, but......pistols at dawn!
Rapiers would be more appropriate and period.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:07 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry, I'm not bothering with any pointless back-and-forths with you revisionists.
The Pearl Harbor revisionists can be fun to argue with, but the Anti Stratfordians are lacking in entertainment value in that regard.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:10 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Like i said, I'm not bothering with any pointless back-and-forths with you conformists.

Ah, the "Look at me, I am a daring heroic individualist rebel speaking the truth" card. Every crackpot does that eventually.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:20 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Why do you act like this is a shocking thing? Most plays were re-vamps or re-imaginings of other plays and stories. Romeo and Juliet is based on a translated Italian story, which in turn may have been derived from Greek Tragedies.

The play as played show multiple characteristics of Shakespeare knowing the skill level of his company, something de Vere would have had no clue of. Examples of this have been given with other plays in this thread.
Am I to take it from this that you think de Vere wasn't familiar with the theatre? With writing and producing plays? Oh dear.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:26 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Even Stratfordians agree that William Cecil, Lord Burghley, was the model for Polonius in Hamlet
No they don't. It's one theory, and a reasonable one, but certainly not universally accepted.
One of Cecil's own descendants has confirmed that Polonius's pontification on courtly manners almost precisely follows the "precepts" that Cecil wrote for his son, Robert, and which at that that time were known ONLY to his immediate family members. Which included Cecil's son-in-law.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:42 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Am I to take it from this that you think de Vere wasn't familiar with the theatre? With writing and producing plays? Oh dear.
He is alluded to having written plays, but none survive. When did he produce plays?

More to the point, any damn fool can write a script with generic parts but Shakespeare worked with a company of actors and he had to know what they were capable of to take advantage. Have a swordfight in your play? Better make sure at least two people know stage fighting, having your fellow courtiers use their skills learned from Saviolo won't end well. Have a lot of female roles? Better hope you have enough young lads in the company to play those parts. Someone important in the company is great at comedy but lousy at dramatic parts? You'll still need to make a part for them. This and a thousand other considerations is what Shakepseare would need to know and do. It wasn't like it is now, where you have casting calls and agents, etc. You have to make do with the pieces you have and make it whole.

This is not something you can mail in from his Lordships House.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:00 PM   #145
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I think "arguing" with dyed-in-the-wool conformists is a fool's errand and I wasn't going to bother providing an easy-to-digest source for their simple minds, but what the hell - this article provides a fair sampling (but isn't comprehensive by any stretch) of evidence (or "awfully funny coincidences") suggesting de Vere as the Spear-shaker ;

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...oxford/306478/
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:09 PM   #146
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Well, I think it's pretty impossible to debate about art - I find "Divine Will" actually pretty damn divine, but that's just my individual taste:

https://stockholmslender.blogspot.co...an-rag_19.html
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:13 PM   #147
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Walt Whitman reveals himself as a proto-typical "conspiracy theorest" and "Shakespeare Denier" (still LoL);

"The comedies have the unmistakable hue of plays, portraits, made for the divertissement only of the elite of the castle, and from its point of view. The comedies are altogether non-acceptable to America and Democracy."

The history plays were "Conceiv'd out of the fullest heat and pulse of European feudalism—personifying in unparallel'd ways the medieval aristocracy, its towering spirit of ruthless and gigantic caste, its own peculiar air and arrogance (no mere imitation)—only one of the 'wolfish earls' so plenteous in the plays themselves, or some born descendant and knower, might seem to be the true author of those amazing works...."
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:14 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Well, I think it's pretty impossible to debate about art - I find "Divine Will" actually pretty damn divine, but that's just my individual taste:

https://stockholmslender.blogspot.co...an-rag_19.html
Art? History, actually.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:14 PM   #149
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Celebrity endorsements are considered proof now?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:23 PM   #150
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When Oxfordians simply voice their perception of the plays in a way that essentially agrees with Whitman, they're accused of being "snobs".

It's interesting to note that there is far more freedom of debate in the US (and many non-English speaking countries for that matter) about the authorship question in 'respectable' or academic circles than in the UK, and I find it ridiculous that an American Oxfordian could be considered a snob.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:23 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Art? History, actually.
Well, the historical part is pretty obvious: Shakespeare wrote the plays of Shakespeare. The wonder and mystery is the scary comprehensiveness of the texts - he wrote for our modern era almost before it had started. And that really is pretty damn exceptional.

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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:24 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Celebrity endorsements are considered proof now?
Whut?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 02:56 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Whut?
You brought up Walt Whitman.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:25 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Starting a thread about a theory of the works of Shakespeare, refuses to answer questions, insults the intelligence of other posters.
This isn't a discussion, this is masturbation.
Hey,it's the way most Conspiracy Kooks roll....
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:27 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
He is alluded to having written plays, but none survive. When did he produce plays?

More to the point, any damn fool can write a script with generic parts but Shakespeare worked with a company of actors and he had to know what they were capable of to take advantage. Have a swordfight in your play? Better make sure at least two people know stage fighting, having your fellow courtiers use their skills learned from Saviolo won't end well. Have a lot of female roles? Better hope you have enough young lads in the company to play those parts. Someone important in the company is great at comedy but lousy at dramatic parts? You'll still need to make a part for them. This and a thousand other considerations is what Shakepseare would need to know and do. It wasn't like it is now, where you have casting calls and agents, etc. You have to make do with the pieces you have and make it whole.

This is not something you can mail in from his Lordships House.
"Shakespeare In Love" is, of course, fictional and an comedy that takes many,many, liberties with history, but the way it shows Shakespeare working in the Elizabethan theater is probably pretty close to the mark.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 22nd August 2019, 05:45 PM   #156
Leftus
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Why couldn't Shakespear have written the plays?
Because he was a filthy commoner.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 06:28 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
"Shakespeare In Love" is, of course, fictional and an comedy that takes many,many, liberties with history, but the way it shows Shakespeare working in the Elizabethan theater is probably pretty close to the mark.
Well, kinda. I mean to nitpick they showed a 'casting call' and that just wasn't how theaters go their actors.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 03:20 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ah, the "Look at me, I am a daring heroic individualist rebel speaking the truth" card. Every crackpot does that eventually.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
One of Cecil's own descendants has confirmed that Polonius's pontification on courtly manners almost precisely follows the "precepts" that Cecil wrote for his son, Robert, and which at that that time were known ONLY to his immediate family members. Which included Cecil's son-in-law.
Ah family anecdote. Not exactly evidence, but the you don't have any of that...

I assume that you, unlike all the other Oxfordian nuts will be demonstrating that the Earl of Oxford had a copy of the precepts written for Robert?
And while you're at it, how about you do a side-by-side comparison of the precepts against Polonius's speech? Because they don't, as you claim, "almost precisely follow".
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Old 23rd August 2019, 03:22 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Am I to take it from this that you think de Vere wasn't familiar with the theatre? With writing and producing plays? Oh dear.
He may have written plays. When will you be producing evidence of Oxford's familiarity with staging and producing them?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 03:25 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I think "arguing" with dyed-in-the-wool conformists is a fool's errand
I take it you won't be supporting your claims then?


And, BTW, wow. You're actually citing Bethell as some sort of expert on Shakespeare? The AGW denying, Evolution denying, HIV denying waskjob?
That's the best you can muster?
Sweet jeebus that's just pathetic, even for Oxfordians.
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