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Old 24th September 2018, 11:36 AM   #2281
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I have not; do you have any examples you can link to?
Byron David Smith was linked earlier in the thread.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_...Smith_killings
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Old 24th September 2018, 11:41 AM   #2282
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Byron David Smith was linked earlier in the thread.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_...Smith_killings
Yes, that's the one; I have already explained why that is not an example of what I was talking about. To say Smith was convicted "because he shot more than once" is an intentional mischaracterization of that case.
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Old 24th September 2018, 11:42 AM   #2283
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yes, that's the one; I have already explained why that is not an example of what I was talking about. To say Smith was convicted "because he shot more than once" is an intentional mischaracterization of that case.
Shooting more than once, alone, would never get someone convicted (or should never, there are bizarre miscarriages of justice all the time). Not sure who said that in this thread, but if they did, they are wrong.

ETA: Smith's intention was to kill them, not fear for his life. He admitted that.

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Old 24th September 2018, 11:44 AM   #2284
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So basically at this point "She took an action that any reasonable person would know would most probably result in death but didn't want him to die?" is where we are at?
"I threw him under the train because I was hoping it would just give him a black eye or something."
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Old 24th September 2018, 11:53 AM   #2285
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
...My own guess is that the odds of conviction on a serious charge are higher than your estimate, but that it will not be a murder charge and that Guyger will be given a relatively light sentence.
The charge she was arrested on was manslaughter.
Quote:
Guyger, 30, of Dallas, was charged with manslaughter, according to jail records. The four-year veteran of the department was released from the Kaufman County Jail on Sunday evening after posting a $300,000 bond. CNN
If the case goes to trial a conviction is always a possibility. As for getting a light sentence, that's possible, too. The law gives the sentencing judge a lot of leeway.
Quote:
Manslaughter in Texas is a second degree felony. This charge will typically carry a sentence of between two and twenty years in a state prison and/or a fine of no more than $10,000. Legal website
You're undoubtedly right, though, the victim, Botham Jean, could have responded with deadly force to someone pushing their way into his apartment. However, in this case where it was a uniformed police officer entering the apartment, prosecutors might contend it was reasonable to presume this was a police action gone awry and thus deadly force was NOT a legal response.

What if that had been the outcome? If Guyger had been shot by Jean? Then we'd be arguing, was it reckless to have shot a uniformed police officer (illegally) entering your apartment at night? How quickly should Mr. Jean have been able to recognize, "It's a cop!" Could you use the NRA argument, if you hesitate you're dead? Ironically, in this case that was apparently true.

The whole incident has some very bizarre aspects.
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Old 24th September 2018, 11:55 AM   #2286
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"I threw him under the train because I was hoping it would just give him a black eye or something."
Remember: once the train fails to kill your target, you have to keep throwing him under the train because killing him was your original intent. That's how things work in la-la land.
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Old 24th September 2018, 11:57 AM   #2287
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The charge she was arrested on was manslaughter.

That's still just a preliminary charge.
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Old 24th September 2018, 12:12 PM   #2288
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"I threw him under the train because I was hoping it would just give him a black eye or something."
Yeah, but what if you were at the wrong station?
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Old 24th September 2018, 12:14 PM   #2289
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Apparently not; the statement released by the department references "adverse conduct when she was arrested", whatever that means.
The adverse conduct is the shooting, imo.

There's been no hint of her behaving improperly after that.
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Old 24th September 2018, 12:49 PM   #2290
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The search warrant was written up before Guyger had been interviewed.

Originally Posted by Star-Telegram
A search warrant written on Sept. 7 and signed by Judge Brandon Birmingham tells a different story (when compared to the later arrest warrant). An officer within the police department told The Dallas Morning News that the search warrant was written before Guyger was interviewed.

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/l...218927790.html
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Old 24th September 2018, 12:53 PM   #2291
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The adverse conduct is the shooting, imo.

There's been no hint of her behaving improperly after that.
Dallas Mayor just said this, which suggests that she wasn't fired because of how she behaved during an interview.

Originally Posted by Star-Telegram
"The swift termination of any officer who engages in misconduct that leads to the loss of innocent life is essential if the Dallas Police Department is to gain and maintain the public trust."
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:16 PM   #2292
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Fired because of the manslaughter charge.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Apparently not; the statement released by the department references "adverse conduct when she was arrested", whatever that means.

I understand why that wording could mean other things, but I don't understand why you would think the shooting couldn't be adverse conduct.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:19 PM   #2293
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The adverse conduct is the shooting, imo.

There's been no hint of her behaving improperly after that.
No hint other than her getting fired for behaving improperly after that.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:29 PM   #2294
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No hint other than her getting fired for behaving improperly after that.
What behavior?
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:30 PM   #2295
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Unless her toxicology came back positive.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:34 PM   #2296
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I understand why that wording could mean other things, but I don't understand why you would think the shooting couldn't be adverse conduct.
Because the shooting happened considerably before she was arrested, or at least that's my current understanding - that she was permitted to go home from the scene and wasn't arrested until sometime later (someone correct please if I am mistaken?).

I would expect a reference to the shooting to read something like "adverse conduct when she shot the victim", not "when she was arrested" which is something that happened later.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:35 PM   #2297
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I understand why that wording could mean other things, but I don't understand why you would think the shooting couldn't be adverse conduct.
The killing is certainly the reason she's in trouble, but the "adverse conduct" could be as simple as entering a private home without a warrant or good cause. If she ever said, even in the first 911 call, "I caught somebody in my house," that would be a lie, which I imagine would also be a firing offense. Most organizations can find grounds to get rid of somebody one way or another.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:36 PM   #2298
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For what it's worth the "During arrest" wording doesn't sound like it's referring to the shooting to me either, but it's not the best worded and/or not vague thing ever written.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:41 PM   #2299
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Maybe the Mayor will have a private chat with the Police Chief and ask her to please not release official statements that contain ambiguities and vagueness.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:42 PM   #2300
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For what it's worth the "During arrest" wording doesn't sound like it's referring to the shooting to me either, but it's not the best worded and/or not vague thing ever written.
It's almost like cops are sometimes not the best writers.

I've edited ad copy that was worse, though. So I'm not going to start throwing stones.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:49 PM   #2301
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For what it's worth, the precise quote from the statement that's throwing me off is,

Quote:
An Internal Affairs investigation concluded that on September 9, 2018, Officer Guyger, #10702, engaged in adverse conduct when she was arrested for Manslaughter.
I suppose that it's possible this is meant to convey that the fact she was arrested for Manslaughter is what constitutes "adverse conduct" wrt whatever regulations under which she was employed; but that seems like a tortured reading.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:49 PM   #2302
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Because the shooting happened considerably before she was arrested, or at least that's my current understanding - that she was permitted to go home from the scene and wasn't arrested until sometime later (someone correct please if I am mistaken?).

I would expect a reference to the shooting to read something like "adverse conduct when she shot the victim", not "when she was arrested" which is something that happened later.
She was arrested 3 days later, imo. She turned herself in without any reported incident. There was video of her being processed into jail.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:49 PM   #2303
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You can read post #2291. The Mayor says she was fired because she engaged in conduct that did lead to the loss of innocent life.
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Old 24th September 2018, 01:53 PM   #2304
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
She was arrested 3 days later, imo. She turned herself in without any reported incident. There was video of her being processed into jail.
Right and that's the problem. The direct statement pretty clearly says she engaged in adverse conduct "on September 9" and "when she was arrested". She was arrested on September 9; but the shooting itself happened on the night of September 6 didn't it?
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:01 PM   #2305
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Right and that's the problem. The direct statement pretty clearly says she engaged in adverse conduct "on September 9" and "when she was arrested". She was arrested on September 9; but the shooting itself happened on the night of September 6 didn't it?
The 9th is when she was officially was booked for manslaughter. manslaughter is the adverse conduct. Until she is officially charged, she hasn't officially done anything.

Here it seems possibly to be about statements made? Possibly during booking?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slvKflzvAWU
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:03 PM   #2306
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If she was fired for adverse conduct on the 9th, that means shooting Jean was not enough to get fired...
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:03 PM   #2307
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
What behavior?
You'll have to ask whoever fired her. I said we had a hint, not a forty-page dissertation plus bibliography.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:03 PM   #2308
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I wonder why didn't empty her gun into the guy as cops sometimes do. Maybe after the second shot she realized her mistake?
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:04 PM   #2309
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You'll have to ask whoever fired her. I said we had a hint, not a forty-page dissertation plus bibliography.
It's apparently in her statements somewhere, possibly statements we haven't seen yet.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:06 PM   #2310
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Right and that's the problem. The direct statement pretty clearly says she engaged in adverse conduct "on September 9" and "when she was arrested". She was arrested on September 9; but the shooting itself happened on the night of September 6 didn't it?

It's not really that clear. It could either mean that or it could mean that was when they arrived at the conclusion. Obviously they arrived at some kind of conclusion about something the day they arrested her.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:06 PM   #2311
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I wonder why didn't empty her gun into the guy as cops sometimes do. Maybe after the second shot she realized her mistake?
I want to know where the other shot hit.

Also would like to know if the walls would stop a bullet from entering another apartment.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:17 PM   #2312
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I want to know where the other shot hit.

Also would like to know if the walls would stop a bullet from entering another apartment.
Earlier today I reviewed the Inside Edition video of his apartment showing much of the living room. I don't see any apparent bullet hole in the visible walls. That shot may have gone through a balcony window.

Anyway I'm just mentioning that I saw no bullet hole.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:21 PM   #2313
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I want to know where the other shot hit.

Also would like to know if the walls would stop a bullet from entering another apartment.
As unusual as the ramifications of this incident appear to be, I shudder to think how convoluted things would be if a bullet had penetrated a wall and hit someone in a third apartment instead of Jean.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:22 PM   #2314
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I want to know where the other shot hit.

Also would like to know if the walls would stop a bullet from entering another apartment.
Walls would be wallboard on studs. If it's a well-designed building there might be sound insulation in the cavities, but that would be an extra expense. The walls wouldn't stop a bullet. People have been killed by random shots through interior and even exterior walls.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:25 PM   #2315
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If she was fired for adverse conduct on the 9th, that means shooting Jean was not enough to get fired...
I think that she was fired for what was determined (on September 9th) to be adverse conduct wrt events on September 6th.


ETA: IIRC, the guy who was illegally deer hunting at night and shot his neighbor wasn't charged for several days.

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Old 24th September 2018, 02:28 PM   #2316
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
As unusual as the ramifications of this incident appear to be, I shudder to think how convoluted things would be if a bullet had penetrated a wall and hit someone in a third apartment instead of Jean.
That would pretty clearly be unintentional. But it could certainly be prosecuted as reckless discharge or something similar.
https://www.txcrimdefense.com/unlawf...rm-texas-laws/
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:31 PM   #2317
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Earlier today I reviewed the Inside Edition video of his apartment showing much of the living room. I don't see any apparent bullet hole in the visible walls. That shot may have gone through a balcony window.

Anyway I'm just mentioning that I saw no bullet hole.
What about light switches? Why didn't Guyger turn on the light when she walked in? Presumedly, the switches both in hers and Jean's appt. were in the same position. Next to the door?
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:34 PM   #2318
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The 9th is when she was officially was booked for manslaughter. manslaughter is the adverse conduct. Until she is officially charged, she hasn't officially done anything.
I understand that; but then once she is officially charged I would still think they'd refer to the date of the "adverse conduct" as the date the crime was committed, not the date she was charged for it.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:39 PM   #2319
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
What about light switches? Why didn't Guyger turn on the light when she walked in? Presumedly, the switches both in hers and Jean's appt. were in the same position. Next to the door?
Yeah, I had thought about that. Usually the light switch will be within arm's length of the doorway.

It may be that she saw the figure silhouette before she reached for the switch. Then she doesn't turn the light on and instead draws her gun with that hand.
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Old 24th September 2018, 02:42 PM   #2320
jimbob
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I want to know where the other shot hit.

Also would like to know if the walls would stop a bullet from entering another apartment.
Wasn't the victim's laptop broken? That would be one way that could happen without him having got it repaired or binned..
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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