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Old 5th July 2019, 10:54 PM   #81
cullennz
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Just looked up what "Poe's law" means

If I wasn't obvious enough I apologise

FWIW I am more left than right in US type terms
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:56 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I am surprised it took you so long to get Trump into the conversation
See, now that's funny. My brilliance is rubbing off on you.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:58 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just looked up what "Poe's law" means

If I wasn't obvious enough I apologise

FWIW I am more left than right in US type terms
Except that you're a reactionary to social change. It is evident throughout your posts and even the topics you choose to respond to. Don't believe me? Ask that big guy with a sword over there in Canberra.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:02 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Except that you're a reactionary to social change. It is evident throughout your posts and even the topics you choose to respond to. Don't believe me? Ask that big guy with a sword over there in Canberra.
I am a kiwi, not an Aussie.

But forgive your mix up as our accents are similar
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:04 PM   #85
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And I have no issue with social change as long as it isn't done with a hammer and no one gets to discuss what it is
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:18 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I am a kiwi, not an Aussie.

But forgive your mix up as our accents are similar

No, they're not! Aussie accents are sexy. I can't imagine anyone mistakening a NZ accent for that.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:27 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nike is a logo. Full stop.

http://www.ijbmer.com/docs/volumes/v...2015060302.pdf


When all is said and done it is a logo.
Which isn't what you originally claimed. Nike does sales, marketing, distribution, and R&D but like many companies will outsource the manufacturing of its product, it's the same model a company like Apple uses. None of which means it licenses its IP to other companies.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:35 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No, they're not! Aussie accents are sexy. I can't imagine anyone mistakening a NZ accent for that.
Lol


We have better fush and chups
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 6th July 2019, 02:43 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I am a kiwi, not an Aussie.

But forgive your mix up as our accents are similar
I know where you're from. If I didn't, the ABs logo would be a give-away. Or the use of Christian Cullen's name... he isn't very obscure to rugby fans, of which I'm one.

It was an oblique reference to another poster.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 6th July 2019, 03:04 AM   #90
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Salon on the US Decloration of Indipendance


https://www.salon.com/2019/07/04/fou...and-prejudice/
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Old 6th July 2019, 03:08 AM   #91
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Would anyone here be surprised to find out that I agree that Nike should not sell these shoes?
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Old 6th July 2019, 03:10 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Would anyone here be surprised to find out that I agree that Nike should not sell these shoes?
Would depend entirely on your reasoning for why not.

Care to share it?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 6th July 2019 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 6th July 2019, 03:55 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Lol


We have better fush and chups
When I was on a temp exchange at 2OCU, RAAF Base Williamtown, I was in the Sgts Mess, and one of my hosts asked me I wanted a "rind of peel" - care to guess what he meant?
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Old 6th July 2019, 04:59 AM   #94
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Again, tempest meet teapot.

In my lifetime, there have been three US flags, with 48, 49 and 50 stars respectively. Is it just a matter of time before someone demonizes two of those three with some negative connotation? I’m sure someone can come up with some social injustice of the 1950’s to muddy the reputation of those hateful 48 and 49 star varieties.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:03 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Embosss over the Nike logo and sell'em at half the ridiculous prices they were being sold for.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:09 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You didn't pay much attention in class, then. Nike designs their products. They don't just buy a container of Fruit of the Loom and replace the logos. Nike supports a half-billion a year in R&D. When they want a new shoe, they design it. They then give it to CMs (contract manufacturers) who produce their product to their specifications. The other model, the one you're confusing with Nike's is OEM (original equipment manufacturing) which is when the manufacturer designs and makes the product and then sells it to marketing or retail companies who put their logo on it. (Think steam irons or blenders... if you look at some of them from the 90s and 00s, they are the same machine/product but with a logo changed from Sunbeam to Salton to Black & Decker...)

I handled the supply chain for many such companies for quite a few years. When Nike was launching a new shoe, the team from R&D in Seattle worked with the pro whose name was going on it for a year, then brought the designs to Asia to hand over to their CMs, with instructions as to whe
re to source the materials for the shoe! Nike is not just a logo.
Thanks for the PR. All this 'R&D' is just a fancy way of saying 'plagiarism': have a look at what your competitiors are doing, go out on the street and see what's fashionable, then go to drawing board and copy. Anyone can sit down and draw a 'design'.

Truth is, when you buy something for its logo you are paying a premium.

Have a read of No Logo by Naomi Woolf.

I just buy the cheapest trainers I see and I can see no difference in quality. In fact, the cheap trainers fit better and support my feet properly, being slightly flat footed.

Why anyone pays any more than £20 for a per of trainers beats me.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:13 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No, they're not! Aussie French accents are sexy. I can't imagine anyone mistakening a NZ accent for that.
FIFY
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:13 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Would anyone here be surprised to find out that I agree that Nike should not sell these shoes?
How many hours have you devoted to sneaker culture? If very little, why would I care about an opinion you just formed in the last week?
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:16 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which isn't what you originally claimed. Nike does sales, marketing, distribution, and R&D but like many companies will outsource the manufacturing of its product, it's the same model a company like Apple uses. None of which means it licenses its IP to other companies.
Take away the 'tick' logo and Nike would be nothing. Nike is its logo and nothing more.


As to Apple, Nike is not at all comparable, Mr Whataboutery.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:18 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Now all those Asian kids who make the shoes will have to work extra shifts to make replacement shoes. /jk

I just kinda see it as a waste of resources. The shoes were already made and shipped to stores apparently. I wonder what they'll do with them?
Sell them on eBay for > $1,500 (according to a poster above). As long as they manage the supply carefully, the price won't drop.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:37 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yeah, if we had allowed white supremacists to claim the Union Flag, what would we put on all the tourist tat?!
When I was at college in Your during the mids 80's I went to a Students' Union general meeting once where a member of the student Conservative Group wore a Union Jack t-shirt. A member of the Labour Group actually proposed a motion to have a student wearing a t-shirt with the national flag of the country on it kicked out of the meeting because "it's a symbol of the National Front".

There was a time when the St George's flag seemed to be going the same way, but then England had a relatively successful international football tournament (I think it was Euro 96) and the flag seemed to be displayed everywhere completely nullifying any fascist connotations it might have had.

The point is that the way to stop a flag that has a very important historical meaning for Americans from being appropriated by right wing groups is not to concede the point and ban it, but to reclaim it. Put it on trainers, put it on t-shirts. Fly it from every flagpole on July 4th. Let the fascists find some other symbol.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:45 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
The point is that the way to stop a flag that has a very important historical meaning for Americans from being appropriated by right wing groups is not to concede the point and ban it, but to reclaim it. Put it on trainers, put it on t-shirts. Fly it from every flagpole on July 4th. Let the fascists find some other symbol.
Would that equally apply to the “Stars and Bars”*. If not, why not? It certainly “has a very important historical meaning for Americans”.

Living here in Appalachia, it’s still seen regularly regardless.

*The flag of the Confederacy.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:53 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?
Do you have any evidence for this?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?
Err, no
Here is the original 4Chan post that started it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onwjwgzw9g...-684.jpg?raw=1

There are no web archives that I can find showing an association between the "OK" sign and white supremacy prior to 2017

I found this:

Quote:
The problem, of course, is that there are white nationalists, neo-Nazis and Klansmen who have increasingly begun using the use of the symbol both to signal their presence to the like-minded, as well as to identify potentially sympathetic recruits among young trolling artists flashing it. To them, the configuration means WP, for “white power.”
This use of the signal preceded the 4chan hoax that made it go viral. A number of alt-right figures, notably white-nationalist guru Richard Spencer, published photographs of themselves using the symbol as early as 2016. Milo Yiannopoulos adopted the symbol on social media as early as 2015.
Is that an OK sign? A white power symbol? Or just a right-wing troll? (Southern Poverty Law Center, Sep. 19, 2018)
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:20 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Thanks for the PR. All this 'R&D' is just a fancy way of saying 'plagiarism': have a look at what your competitiors are doing, go out on the street and see what's fashionable, then go to drawing board and copy. Anyone can sit down and draw a 'design'.

Truth is, when you buy something for its logo you are paying a premium.

Have a read of No Logo by Naomi Woolf.

I just buy the cheapest trainers I see and I can see no difference in quality. In fact, the cheap trainers fit better and support my feet properly, being slightly flat footed.

Why anyone pays any more than £20 for a per of trainers beats me.
It's Naomi Klein.

And you're changing the discussion. Nike is not just a logo. Period. If you want to start a thread on whether people get ripped off buying logos, that's a different discussion. I don't argue with the thought that people pay for too much to turn themselves into walking billboards, but that doesn't matter if it's Coach or Ivanka Originals.... (One actually designs their own bags, the other picks stuff off the showroom floor and puts a new label on it.) Brand names and logos are status symbols. I doubt anyone will deny it.

That wasn't your claim, though. Your claim is that Nike Is Just A Logo. That is incorrect. An intersection of completely different personalities have corrected you. You pick some weird crosses to die on.
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:38 AM   #105
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Don’t waste your time. Your engaging with a fiction here.
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Old 6th July 2019, 07:04 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Would that equally apply to the “Stars and Bars”*. If not, why not?
I would say not. There's a difference between the flag adopted when your nation was created and the flag adopted by the group of states that seceded so that they could carry on keeping slaves.
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Old 6th July 2019, 07:36 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
There's a difference between the flag adopted when your nation was created and the flag adopted by the group of states that seceded so that they could carry on keeping slaves.
Stipulated.

But do you deny it “has a very important historical meaning for Americans”.

That was the stated standard.
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Old 6th July 2019, 09:08 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Would that equally apply to the “Stars and Bars”*. If not, why not? It certainly “has a very important historical meaning for Americans”.

Living here in Appalachia, it’s still seen regularly regardless.

*The flag of the Confederacy.
Can't …..resist....historical.....trivia...…..but I'll put it in a spoiler because it is not very topical.

Is it? Are you referring to that thing with a saltire (the diagonal cross), with the stars on the cross as "the stars and bars"? A lot of people do, but they're wrong. That flag, frequently referred to as "the Confederate flag" or "the Confederate battle flag" is not the Stars and Bars. The Stars and Bars is the national flag of the CSA. In heraldry, a bar is a broad, horizontal stripe. I don't know that I've ever see the Stars and Bars flown outside of a specific historical display, but I've seen that other flag on pickup trucks and the Dukes of Hazard and such. In Appalachia, things might be different, or they might not know their history well enough to know that the Stars and Bars is a different flag.
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Old 6th July 2019, 09:32 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
When I was at college in Your during the mids 80's I went to a Students' Union general meeting once where a member of the student Conservative Group wore a Union Jack t-shirt. A member of the Labour Group actually proposed a motion to have a student wearing a t-shirt with the national flag of the country on it kicked out of the meeting because "it's a symbol of the National Front".

There was a time when the St George's flag seemed to be going the same way, but then England had a relatively successful international football tournament (I think it was Euro 96) and the flag seemed to be displayed everywhere completely nullifying any fascist connotations it might have had.

The point is that the way to stop a flag that has a very important historical meaning for Americans from being appropriated by right wing groups is not to concede the point and ban it, but to reclaim it. Put it on trainers, put it on t-shirts. Fly it from every flagpole on July 4th. Let the fascists find some other symbol.
This. Exactly this. I can remember when the English and British flags were considered National Front emblems, and am glad the mods and the football crowds stole them back. If only Nike saw things the same way.
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Old 6th July 2019, 09:33 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Would that equally apply to the “Stars and Bars”*. If not, why not? It certainly “has a very important historical meaning for Americans”.
Yes
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Old 6th July 2019, 09:34 AM   #111
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If White supremacists use the Betsy Ross flag, I wonder whether maybe they think they are using a Confederate flag and confused the Stars and Bars with the Betsy Ross flag.
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:08 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Can't …..resist....historical.....trivia...…..but I'll put it in a spoiler because it is not very topical.

Is it? Are you referring to that thing with a saltire (the diagonal cross), with the stars on the cross as "the stars and bars"? A lot of people do, but they're wrong. That flag, frequently referred to as "the Confederate flag" or "the Confederate battle flag" is not the Stars and Bars. The Stars and Bars is the national flag of the CSA. In heraldry, a bar is a broad, horizontal stripe. I don't know that I've ever see the Stars and Bars flown outside of a specific historical display, but I've seen that other flag on pickup trucks and the Dukes of Hazard and such. In Appalachia, things might be different, or they might not know their history well enough to know that the Stars and Bars is a different flag.
Thanks for that! I stand edified.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:05 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's Naomi Klein.

And you're changing the discussion. Nike is not just a logo. Period. If you want to start a thread on whether people get ripped off buying logos, that's a different discussion. I don't argue with the thought that people pay for too much to turn themselves into walking billboards, but that doesn't matter if it's Coach or Ivanka Originals.... (One actually designs their own bags, the other picks stuff off the showroom floor and puts a new label on it.) Brand names and logos are status symbols. I doubt anyone will deny it.

That wasn't your claim, though. Your claim is that Nike Is Just A Logo. That is incorrect. An intersection of completely different personalities have corrected you. You pick some weird crosses to die on.
It is just a logo. Companies like Apple can have watertight patents on their IT products and programmes (for example Mac). You cannot claim ownership of fashion. Were I to do some reverse engineering on the Betsy Ross Nike trainers, I can soon work out what is needed to copy the fashion, obviously modifyng the design so it is not a direct copy. I could then contract a factory in China or Indonesia to mass produce them to spec. As long as there is no Nike logo on them there is sweet fanny adams Nike can do because all they own is the logo. Nike = the Nike logo.

That is all Nike is.
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:23 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a logo. Companies like Apple can have watertight patents on their IT products and programmes (for example Mac). You cannot claim ownership of fashion. Were I to do some reverse engineering on the Betsy Ross Nike trainers, I can soon work out what is needed to copy the fashion, obviously modifyng the design so it is not a direct copy. I could then contract a factory in China or Indonesia to mass produce them to spec. As long as there is no Nike logo on them there is sweet fanny adams Nike can do because all they own is the logo. Nike = the Nike logo.



That is all Nike is.
https://patents.justia.com/assignee/nike-inc
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:37 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a logo. Companies like Apple can have watertight patents on their IT products and programmes (for example Mac). You cannot claim ownership of fashion.

Unless you get a design patent on the specific fashion item you're selling.

In which case, yes you can. Kemo Sabe!
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Old 6th July 2019, 07:34 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a logo. Companies like Apple can have watertight patents on their IT products and programmes (for example Mac). You cannot claim ownership of fashion. Were I to do some reverse engineering on the Betsy Ross Nike trainers, I can soon work out what is needed to copy the fashion, obviously modifyng the design so it is not a direct copy. I could then contract a factory in China or Indonesia to mass produce them to spec. As long as there is no Nike logo on them there is sweet fanny adams Nike can do because all they own is the logo. Nike = the Nike logo.

That is all Nike is.
You just keep pulling opinions out of thin air, don't you. Nike has about 5000 patents! That's just in the US. They have 19,000 in place or pending, globally.

Your mass-produced copy would not contain that patented process or material, believe me. My Nike trainers from 1990 are still in wearable condition. (I no longer run but when I have trouble, post bypass, with my circulation, they're ideal.) Your knock-offs will last a year or two and will look similar but ain't no one running the London Marathon in them.
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Old 6th July 2019, 07:35 PM   #117
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Well, the US Government thought well enough of this flag to give it twopostage stamps:








Norm
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:44 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Well, the US Government thought well enough of this flag to give it twopostage stamps:


https://i.imgur.com/LctzF1t.jpg?1


https://i.imgur.com/5Hqx1Px.jpg?1


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The customers for stamps and the customers for limited edition sneakers might not have a lot of overlap.
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Old 7th July 2019, 08:32 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I found this:
I think the development of the okay hand sign into a white supremacist gesture and a representation of the letters WP (White Power) and influence from 4chan is a bit more complex. This is what I remember:

Pepe the frog was an internet reaction image for years, appropriated from artist Matt Furie and popularized by 4chan. There were many racist and anti-semitic depictions introduced on 4chan.org/pol/ and this accelerated when Trump entered the Republican primaries in 2015. The 'smug Pepe' form began to sometimes include an okay handsign similar to a gesture Trump often makes (also adopted by Malik Obama, Barack Obama's half-brother).

The media picked up on the /pol/ Pepe memes and began suggesting Pepe was an alt-right, and therefore white supremacist, symbol and /pol/ gleefully embraced the idea (there is a chicken and egg and also a tail wagging the dog aspect to this). That was the initial 4chan hoax that led to the creation of Kekistan, a fictional alt-right country, to people displaying Pepe at rallies and protests, and to Milo Yiannapolis (half-Jewish and married to a black man) and Richard Spencer making the handsign as an alt-right reference to smug Pepe.

It was later that /pol/ suggested okay should represent the letters WP in order to more firmly cement the white supremacist connection. That was the second 4chan hoax which you referenced.

This is a pretty good article about it:
https://theoutline.com/post/1428/the...t-right-symbol

uke2se said: "The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?"

I think uke2se's definition of "long before" is important. I am suggesting that there are at least two 4chan hoaxes related to it's adoption by the alt-right and white supremacists and that it was not known to be used that way by almost any definition of "long before".

Last edited by Scopedog; 7th July 2019 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 7th July 2019, 08:45 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You just keep pulling opinions out of thin air, don't you. Nike has about 5000 patents! That's just in the US. They have 19,000 in place or pending, globally.

Your mass-produced copy would not contain that patented process or material, believe me. My Nike trainers from 1990 are still in wearable condition. (I no longer run but when I have trouble, post bypass, with my circulation, they're ideal.) Your knock-offs will last a year or two and will look similar but ain't no one running the London Marathon in them.
They can have as many patents as they like but they do not own the patent for trainers, running shoes and sports wear in general. AIUI it was Addidas who invented the trainer, in Germany. Truth is, you cannot patent or copyright fashion.

Sure you can patent a 'design' but all it needs is someone to simply change the shape of the circles and ridges on the sole, the number of lace eyes, length of the lip, height of the heel and there is NOTHING to stop you from bringing it out. It's only if you use the Nike logo you're in trouble.

Mary Quant 'invented' the mini skirt. Could Mary Quant stop anyone else from producing them? No. is the short answer.

My cheap trainers are by a Dutch company called Kappa. They are the only trainers that seem to fit me perfectly. The last pair lasted about three years of constant wear and at that price it was no big deal to chuck them out.
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