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1st August 2014, 12:35 PM | #41 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Without knowing the details of this issue, how can one know? The issue is with some specific software, running with a given amount of load on some unknown hardware. Is it impossible that the forum software isn't particularly efficient? We've already seen them trying to turn some features off to reduce load.
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1st August 2014, 12:43 PM | #42 |
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Yes. We know it is in fact. But two points: #1: Another larger and more active forum is using the exact same relatively inefficient version of vBulletin that we are and it loads just fine. No seemingly random several hour long sessions of slowness. #2: Because of the add-ons used on this forum and because of a few other reasons, transferring the content of this forum to another version of vBulletin or to another forum software entirely would be a gargantuan nightmare of a task. Because of those two reasons, and if there is a simple hardware fix, the hardware fix is the obvious solution for our needs. If the forum is moved to a dedicated and sufficient server and it then still has problems, then and only then should one consider a nightmarish (and possibly forum life altering) software transfer. |
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1st August 2014, 12:56 PM | #43 |
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I'm a software guy and I'm always loathe to just throw hardware at problem.
However, if the above is correct it would be unwise to do otherwise in this case. If JREF really wants help from people here, then we need accurate information. First and foremost is a confirmation of exactly what the hardware and software that is running the forum. |
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1st August 2014, 01:00 PM | #44 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Oh, I agree that looking at the application side can certainly be a can of worms. "How much faster do we need to do the stuff we are doing right now to get it done fast enough?" is a simpler question. If some forum features don't scale though, we may only be delaying addressing root causes. What the scalability limits are on this future infrastructure might be worth knowing.
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1st August 2014, 01:08 PM | #45 |
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I'm a hardware guy (more or less) and I agree with you sentiment. I'm reminded of a document from EMC about the impact on performance of different layers in the stack. It was an inverted pyramid with application at the top. It takes a lot of hardware take make the same impact that can often be made by tuning the software.
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1st August 2014, 01:43 PM | #46 |
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On the flip side, hardware is often cheap compared to people, so is it better to spend a few hundred or thousand dollars to double the RAM, or spend tens of thousands on developers to improve RAM usage? Depends, the idealist in me wants to fix the software (quality software, future scalability blah blah), the pragmatist in me asks what the business needs are and what the realistic future needs are. Do the developers even have the time, would their efforts be better spent on features that bring in more customers, etc etc.
I have seen a number of forums that have highly customized their forum software and database though, sometimes you don't have money for hardware but you have volunteer developers that are free. I should change my username to "itdepends" |
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1st August 2014, 02:12 PM | #47 |
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Kind of depends on how things scale. If it's the kind of problem that grows linearly(ish) and can be fixed with a bit of hardware, sure fix it with hardware. Who knows though?
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1st August 2014, 02:24 PM | #48 |
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1st August 2014, 02:39 PM | #49 |
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It may be difficult to getthis data from JREF.
Is may be they don't know. Do they know what "dedicated" means in this context, for example? Sharon's own website suggests she has no special knowledge in this field. Indeed,her post suggests she thinks this forum has a single moderator. I suspect the knowledge of the other JREF staff re forum maintenance is at a similar level. (As in any small group of non computer nerds; why would JREF be any different?They do other stuff.) It is therefore critical that those here who do have such knowledge should email her , asking for that data and offering advice accordingly. Keeping Darat in the loop makes sense and would be simple courtesy, so I'd suggest anyone emailing Sharon with constructive suggestions copies the email here and drops Darat a heads up PM with a link to the relevant post. |
1st August 2014, 02:43 PM | #50 |
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Why does this cloud of doom keep hovering?
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1st August 2014, 02:45 PM | #51 |
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Excellent suggestions, Soapy Sam. Or, you can cc Darat at darat@randi.org . |
1st August 2014, 02:59 PM | #52 |
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I'll contribute $100 towards whatever hardware/software solutions are needed. Failing that, I'll give the $100 to abaddon to help defray his costs.
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1st August 2014, 03:03 PM | #53 |
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Don't do that. This problem is going to need LOTS of communications between parties with HUGELY different skills, knowledge and experience. To start accusing one party of bad faith at the outset is to poison the well with utterly bad consequences. Can we assume the good faith and intentions of others. And if those do come into question, leave the ad homs at home and focus on the issues.
Please. |
1st August 2014, 03:23 PM | #54 |
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I've offered via email to, if necessary, take it over and maintain it with or without JREF branding. That would be a better option than starting over.
If it comes to that I'm more than happy for us (indeed prefer) to work with others on a solution. (For some background I founded and ran a successful ISP in Oz back in the 90s before selling it and moving to Europe, starting a dedicated hosting company, then selling it to pursue other interests. I now have another internet related startup) |
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1st August 2014, 03:43 PM | #55 |
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I propose a fund raising effort specifically for the purpose of a hardware/software upgrade for the forum.
BTW, I know there are a lot of variables here, but how about a ballpark figure for how much we are talking about? |
1st August 2014, 03:49 PM | #56 |
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1st August 2014, 04:06 PM | #57 |
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1st August 2014, 05:24 PM | #58 |
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1st August 2014, 05:44 PM | #59 |
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1st August 2014, 05:57 PM | #60 |
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As in your point 3 in the original post where you notified "the forum moderator", this seems like you actually have not much of a clue about how the forum is run, for whatever reason. As some informed people have said, it seems like the problems are mostly due to a lack of hardware power. I suggest your next step is to get someone to look up the contract you have with SoftLayer and post both the hardware specifications and the costs in this thread. I can't see anything standing in way of transparency here. The informed people will tell you if the current hardware is the definite problem or if there is something else to look after. Likely it is the former, and not unlikely the contract is a couple of years old given that the forum doesn't seem to have been a JREF priority for the last few years. Meaning that today you would get a lot more power for the bucks you signed in for, likely enough for the current needs, and I suggest that you lay all of this out to the amazing Randi and let him make the phone call for a new deal. |
1st August 2014, 05:58 PM | #61 |
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Well aside from the fact that, as a computer programmer, I have no idea why that would be the case, yesterday it was far worse than that. I couldn't log in at all, and when I moved around the forum, I was apparently logged in as different people, depending on where I was going.
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1st August 2014, 06:03 PM | #62 |
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1st August 2014, 06:10 PM | #63 |
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The fact that the forum's been slow for six months is evidence enough that they don't really give a ****.
All you need to know about the people who are "working on this". Hell, I probably wouldn't mind paying for a whole year just by myself to stop this damn problem. |
1st August 2014, 06:40 PM | #64 |
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1st August 2014, 06:41 PM | #65 |
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Can we cut Sharon some slack? The fact that she referred to the Forum Liaison (if that's his actual title now, damned if I'm going to go look it up) as "the" moderator, is really rather minor.
The OP says that at least someone's looking at the situation. The fact that they have approached it from a non-technical side may just be an indication that the human resources they have available do not include sufficient techies, so they gave it to a willing and capable person and thought, "Hey, we've got a resource we're not using; let's go out to the forums and see if we can get anyone with technical chops who wants to help get this going." I think the OP sort of states that. I note one person who's mentioned that he made an offer... I'm guessing by email. I see none of the traditional responses like "email sent", though. Darat told us a few weeks before TAM that the Foundation was totally involved in TAM and this would be addressed after that was done. They're at least looking at it. If we want to bitch about whether the team should be headed by a technical guru instead of an outreach person, we're going to get no where. It's a stumbling start, but it's a start. Now we can be helpful or we can pee on their socks. If you guys know the answers, SEND THE EMAIL. It would seem that they don't want to put all the specs in a public thread on the forum, if they even know them. If we've got the technical chops here in the usergroup, then step up. ETA: And I'm in the group that questions/questioned whether the Foundation has the will to make the forum work and to get the forum back involved in "Foundation Business". I'm just saying.... it's a start. |
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1st August 2014, 06:46 PM | #66 |
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Why do I feel like this is a way of setting up the idea that we need to have ad clicks and banner ads on the site to "help offset the costs of running a forum."
Sorry but abaddon is right. My husband has made several forums over the years and it's cheap, even with a dedicated server it's not that expensive at all. We're talking a couple hundred dollars. The bulk of the "work" on the forum is generally done by the posters themselves, that's who is making it interesting and drawing the large numbers of posters. If running a few banner ads is what it's going to take to offset the cost then just do it I guess. But it does seem really weird to see the disconnect between the forum and the Foundation and it also seems strange that this is being suggested as some huge problem when most other forums I know will just pick a holiday weekend and upgrade the forum in a few hours? I don't get it. |
1st August 2014, 07:15 PM | #67 |
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1st August 2014, 07:16 PM | #68 |
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1st August 2014, 07:20 PM | #69 |
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1st August 2014, 07:53 PM | #70 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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1st August 2014, 08:11 PM | #71 |
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Quoting this again because it deserves to be seen by everyone reading this thread:
Sharon's email address again: Sharon@randi.org |
1st August 2014, 08:20 PM | #72 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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1st August 2014, 08:28 PM | #73 |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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1st August 2014, 08:32 PM | #74 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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1st August 2014, 08:33 PM | #75 |
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1st August 2014, 08:47 PM | #76 |
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1st August 2014, 08:47 PM | #77 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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1st August 2014, 08:51 PM | #78 |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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1st August 2014, 09:21 PM | #79 |
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1st August 2014, 09:31 PM | #80 |
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That's rich. The OP asks for advice that obviously shows she's out of her league and people explain to her that she's not saying something that makes sense and they get attacked for not being NICE.
How about this instead, If you don't know what you are talking about stop cluttering up the thread with a welcoming committee and lots of really nice comments. If there's a real problem, which the OP clearly indicates there is, let those who DO know what they are talking about give advice. |
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