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5th August 2014, 10:41 AM | #241 |
Just the right amount of cowbell
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I would like to say upfront that, if nominated, I will not run, and if elected, I will not serve. Of course, a second term would be out the question. And it would be the height of absurdity to change the constitution to allow me to be in charge for life.
Just sayin' (with apologies to Pat Paulson) |
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5th August 2014, 10:46 AM | #242 |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 10:50 AM | #243 |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 10:54 AM | #244 |
Philosopher
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I suggest we run it like a modern western democracy and offer voting rights proportional to $$$ donated.
More seriously I hope Darat is willing to continue in his role. We've exchanged several messages and I know he very much would like the forum to remain a part of JREF and believes it has value as part of JREF. I think most of us, as participants, agree with him. The JREF board clearly doesn't and I can also see their perspective - financially, legally, and politically it's more likely a burden than a blessing. The first thing I hope to improve (along with getting things stable obviously) is communication. I get the distinct impression the forum admins (and to a lesser extent mods) have felt out of the loop and uninvolved in the decision-making process. Not just now, but for years. I can perfectly understand how they'd feel saddened and perhaps betrayed by the board's decision, given the years of work they've put in. So again, I encourage everyone to throw in their 2 cents. We'll never make everyone happy, but we can at least make an attempt! |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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5th August 2014, 11:24 AM | #245 |
Banned
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5th August 2014, 11:25 AM | #246 |
King of the Pod People
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Sure, if they take a short-sighted view and forget that the forum helped create TAM and transformed the organization into a community.
Quote:
Quote:
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5th August 2014, 11:27 AM | #247 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree. The personal data issue is easy to deal with. The fact of a new "regime" is irrelevant if the same mods and admins are doing the very same thing that they have always done.
There remains the question, though, that if the forum is no longer fettered by JREF, can or should the rules be changed? That is a question outside the remit of the practicality of sustaining this forum. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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5th August 2014, 11:30 AM | #248 |
Girl
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It might work out. Don't know.
It was the governance policies that made this forum so worthwhile IMO, and by implication those who policed them. If that stays the same all well and good but I doubt that it will since all that has to be stitched up again on the fly by presumably different folks. |
5th August 2014, 11:31 AM | #249 |
Technical Admin
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Nice input on the stats, thanks! The only difficulty is that the application itself is a commercial product and getting into it and making custom changes is definitely doable, but then you rapidly create completely custom software that can no longer be upgraded.. and I've seen forums that do that; run on highly customized versions of really old forum software that manually patch in security fixes and such, but you need developers who can and will do that kind of thing.
But it is a good point, for very large forums I followed one forum admin through his large forum changes with different versions of vBulletin and then his migration to Xenforo, and one of his findings was that Xenforo used about half the resources of vBulletin(EDIT: Rather he could serve pages twice as fast on the same hardware). His forum was larger than this one and was scaled properly before the move so the resource usage difference on this forum's hardware might not be the same, but your point is still valid. Yeah a single 10k Raptor for the MySQL database seems like it would become a bottleneck especially if images are being stored as blobs in it. Heh I'd never heard of that one before but just got off a conference call with a client and they use it too, the systems guy I work with likes Zabbix. |
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One man's reason that something is not reliable evidence is another man's whine about how others won't buy 3 magic beans with the family cow. - hgc |
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5th August 2014, 11:34 AM | #250 |
Philosopher
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I thought it might be best to come up with a strategy privately with the people who've been most invested (admins/mods etc) and then put it up for discussion, but the way the thread has gone I think it's best now just to be out in the open with all members.
Sharon, ball is in your court on that one. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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5th August 2014, 11:41 AM | #251 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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5th August 2014, 11:47 AM | #252 |
Girl
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The forum conduct rules and their implementation.
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5th August 2014, 11:58 AM | #253 |
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Value is relative. I remember JREF saying that there is very little conversion from forum membership to JREF membership. I'm not a JREF member, are you?
A non-profit very often has to make very difficult decisions. With the Challenge pretty much dormant that lessens the need to JREF for this forum. It sounds like they are trying to narrow the focus of JREF and in doing so, the forum will fall outside the new focus. As far as TAM goes, isn't it at the point where it can survive independent of the forum? There have been lawsuits and threatened lawsuits over the years because of the forum. Getting a lawyer to just respond to the threats is not cheap and never mind the occasional lawsuit. No matter how ridiculous (yes, I'm talking about you George), it still costs money. This forum is the only one I participate in on a regular basis. And as much as I love this forum, I can still understand JREF wanting to jettison it. We should stop worrying about that since it appears to be a fait accompli. We need to worry about the future. We've been handed lemons, so let's sell the lemons and buy some crack. Is that how that saying goes? |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 12:06 PM | #254 |
Obsessed with Reality
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Indeed. The forums started in mid 2001, and it rapidly gathered a lot of people avid of socializing with like-minded folk (skeptics were a rather rare species by then). It soon became clear that we needed to meet up IRL, and if IIRC, Girl6 played a major role in giving ideas and volunteering in that direction. TAM was born. |
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The Universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition - Carl Sagan |
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5th August 2014, 12:09 PM | #255 |
Guest
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In case anyone is curious:
I have deleted every PM and every email I have ever received including those I have received over the years from people who have had to prove their identity. They are all gone. |
5th August 2014, 12:13 PM | #256 |
Not bored. Never bored.
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When life gives you lemons, don’t make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don’t want your damn lemons, what the hell am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life’s manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I’m the man who’s gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I’m gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!
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"Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988- Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides. |
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5th August 2014, 12:15 PM | #257 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Maybe old age is playing havoc with my memory, but I rather clearly remember JREF - not sure who it was or under which circumstances - deny that the forum community had any meaningful part in making the TAMs happen or turning them (or JREF) into what they became.
Quote:
What interactions there were between JREF proper and the forum have for many years made it clear that the forum was something JREF allowed to continue to exist as long as the forum did nothing to displease JREF in any way (such as daring to suggest that the arbitrary rules Randi allegedly insisted on ought not be treated like they were handed down on clay tablets at Mt. Sinai), and definitely NOT in any way an asset to JREF´s mission. Maybe it was just Darat´s way to shut up any voice questioning his authority, but the message has always been clear: if the forum were ever to become more work to JREF than they thought it was worth (and he made it clear they considered it worth no work at all) then it would be closed down. |
5th August 2014, 12:21 PM | #258 |
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I think it is important for a Foundation like the Randi Educational Foundation, which claims to be "educational", to remain open, and to possibly expose itself to criticism and possible disagreements. This is important for its credibility, in my opinion. Otherwise, there is a risk of sliding into dogmatism, somewhat like religions, that skeptics sometimes criticize.
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5th August 2014, 12:22 PM | #259 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
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5th August 2014, 12:29 PM | #260 |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 12:45 PM | #261 |
Master Poster
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That is a major, BIG mistake. Either the Powers That Be don't understand technology (since 1970, that is) or they are otherwise blind to the situation. This Forum should be a major focus of JREF, big time.
Are they ignoring the Internet, also? Going back to paper mailing, billboards, newspapers and magazines to get the word out? Is that how education works nowdays? Anyone for a McGuffey Reader or a slate? |
5th August 2014, 12:47 PM | #262 |
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5th August 2014, 12:55 PM | #263 |
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No, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, etc. should be their focus. Sites that can get the word out to millions inexpensively and very quickly. I don't know if that's their plan but that's what it should be.
Our forum has about 2000 active users. A D-list celebrity like Mickey Dolenz has 17,000+ followers. (Not picking on Mickey, just happened to see him on TV the other night.) A forum is not nearly as efficient as a lot of other methods. Don't get me wrong, I like this forum. I've been here a long time and participate regularly, but let's not make this forum out to be something it's not. |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 12:57 PM | #264 |
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I think this is an error. Perhaps they want to give an impression that they are an "elite" of superior people, who wouldn't want to mix with the "ordinary people". If they are really so good, they should really prove it through the quality of their interaction with people.
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5th August 2014, 12:59 PM | #265 |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 01:08 PM | #266 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I heard things at TAM that hinted (well, more than hinted) a decision had been taken some time--not sure how long--before then. So unless he was involved in decision making a while before the official announcement of his joining the board, I don't think Savage played a part. |
5th August 2014, 01:15 PM | #267 |
Master Poster
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It pains me to say this, but the Olde Guard will pass soon. Perhaps the next generation will realize the value.
Let's nitpick, shall we? All of those, plus the Forum, should be in the mix. Each has their advantages. Want to get the word out quickly? Twitter. But try to put an essay or debate on Twitter sometime, or try to carry on a serious discussion, or find a relevant one. |
5th August 2014, 01:17 PM | #268 |
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Are there any other comparable forums (or whatever, discussion areas) where skeptical topics are tackled like they are here? I think this is the question; not are we as big as some pop star's fanclub.
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5th August 2014, 01:19 PM | #269 |
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5th August 2014, 01:19 PM | #270 |
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You've seen the Donate button, that brings you to a membership page where you can sign up. You haven't done so. You aren't unusual, the vast majority of people here are not members, myself included.
I agree they have never figured out how to leverage the forum fully, but then again JREF is a small organization. I think there's less than 10 employees, including Jame Randi. The main focus of JREF has been lectures, TAM and getting Randi an occasional media interview. From the JREF point of view, I can understand them thinking that they shouldn't have to preach to the choir (us). We should be the one's to step up without a lot of marketing, but that hasn't been the case. |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 01:22 PM | #271 |
Illuminator
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- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games'] |
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5th August 2014, 01:28 PM | #272 |
Technical Admin
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http://talkfreethought.org/ is the other forum of this kind that I sometimes frequent, used to be free ratio and part of Internet Infidels before that if I recall correctly.
As someone already mentioned, no link at all to JREF would probably mean reduced visibility and less incoming users, and some people leaving, on the other hand it's starting with an existing user base is further ahead than the vast majority of forums. I guess that's two other questions that maybe can be at least considered... is there an existing forum with similar enough goals that could be the new home for this forum's members? Does make the whole transition easier, though I expect that's not what most people who care would want. A related question, is there maybe another skeptic type organization what could take on the forum? Would that even be desirable? Does the community have to exist in the context of and for the purpose of supporting/facilitating/whatever some other goal, or is the community existing on its own for the purpose of existing sufficient? Kind of relates to the questions about ownership and who sets policy politics etc etc. |
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One man's reason that something is not reliable evidence is another man's whine about how others won't buy 3 magic beans with the family cow. - hgc |
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5th August 2014, 01:28 PM | #273 |
Master Poster
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Two that immediately come to mind are The Straight Dope and GiraffeBoards. Although many members here are also members there, each board has its distinctive ambiance.
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5th August 2014, 01:29 PM | #274 |
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It's not nitpicking. A forum is an inefficient means of communication and fraught with problems that most organizations don't want to deal with. How many advocacy organizations run their own forum like this one?
They have randi.org for essays and articles. The forum is very valuable to me, you and most of the people on it. It's not that valuable to JREF itself. |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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5th August 2014, 01:30 PM | #275 |
ETcorngods survivor
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People may have learned that, and it may be that fine print you mention does appear in many places, but not the Membership Agreement for this forum.
As for a general PII purge, don't forget private messages. All PMs would need to be deleted. Actually, a case could be made for any post made in a non-public forum would need to be purged, too. |
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5th August 2014, 01:35 PM | #276 |
Philosopher
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Sharon has said the JREF website will continue to promote the forum where appropriate, including posting. Just no resources (or liability)
Quote:
Quote:
There is zero reason this community cannot continue much the same way as it has to date. But it's up to the community to make it happen. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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5th August 2014, 01:36 PM | #277 |
Membership Drive
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I has a sad, and a question:
When? When will this happen? This forum is dear to me, and I will hate to lose it. Any move is going to involve some inevitable losses. If JREF really is letting go, when will whatever happens, happen? |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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5th August 2014, 01:39 PM | #278 |
Membership Drive
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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5th August 2014, 01:41 PM | #279 |
ETcorngods survivor
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A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group. "He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost |
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5th August 2014, 01:41 PM | #280 |
Critical Thinker
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Posts: 415
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Not really going to comment on the forums issue, just with a fix for the login issues that people are having:
If you add this line to your hosts file (in OS X it's under /etc/hosts, don't know about other OSes), flush your Safari cache and/or DNS cache, you should be able to log in: 67.228.115.45 forums.randi.org |
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