IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » Welcome to ISF » Other Skeptical Organizations » JREF
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags D.J. Grothe , jref

Reply
Old 2nd September 2014, 10:48 PM   #161
AdMan
Penultimate Amazing
 
AdMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Until we see some decent investigative reporting, it's highly unlikely we will get the ins and outs of exactly what happened, here. I'm going with a Gestalt Theory. I'd say that you combine the evidence you have and it may not have been any one thing.

> DJ did not have the loyalty factor that Randi had. DJ's not Randi. But was the Amazing Charisma the reason for the departure of long-term people when Randi handed over? I don't know, but I think that was only a part of it. I think DJ wanted to run his own show and maybe rubbed some people the wrong way.

> He's not the sort of presence you get (in terms of PR and exposure) as releasing something to the press or networks with "James Randi Said....". Not even the kind of PR you get with a Plait or Banacek or Gillette or Savage if any of those folk were proposed as the head. (Not commenting on views or skeptical cred, just the very needed promotional aspects.)

> Certainly he was targeted by the FTB crowd and FTB wannabe crowd. The only way to place yourself above the fray is to place yourself above the fray. It doesn't work if you tweet them and tell them you're above the fray.

> If anyone has a wayback machine, check out the promotions for this year's TAM. DJ was barely mentioned, and in the few weeks right before TAM he was actually not mentioned at all. I understand he was present and was involved in some of the panels, but you'd think the President of the JREF should've been more prominent. I recall speculating at the time (with friends) that there was something up, possibly a parting of the ways in the offing.

Frankly, I think the Foundation missed the boat with the appointment of DJ. Nothing against him or his creds, in fact I think his outing of the rent-a-boy hypocrite was one of my favorite events in guerrilla theater of the past decade. At the time, we were all speculating about a big-name presence - Phil came close enough to that, but then he opted out. I truly think they should've looked for someone else with a higher public relations quotient.

The real question is where (and if) they go from here. TAM has a built-in following if Randi's behind it and promoting it. He can get a Who's Who in the sketpic(k)-atheist community to show up. If they want to include PZ or Rebecca in some side event or on the dais, I have no problem. I want to hear dissenting voices. Maybe they can repatriate the SJ wing? Lord knows they could use the gigs!

But where does the foundation go? Randi is rather senior and can't go on forever. I still think they need a major presence, e.g. someone who can call Anderson Cooper or (OMG) Bill Reilly and get quoted or even interviewed on a topic. Neil dG Tyson would be ideal. Alas, I think he makes eleventy-seven times what they could pay and I'm not sure he could hold down his current job and be the JREF president, also. Absent Dr. Tyson, Banacek or Plait. (My choices - not yours - not the Foundation's)

If the JREF had a choice, I think they'd go for Bill Nye. Of course, he's not going to take the job, as he's already CEO of the Planetary Society and in any case I doubt the JREF could afford him. Who else can take this? I have no *********** idea. I don't know if the JREF board does, either. Maybe they can convince David Silverman to jump ship. He's good. Actually, a probably relatively less known skeptic, but who's more capable, would probably be a good choice. Hint to the JREF: JW. Too bad it's not going to happen.

As an aside, yes--I also had noticed that DJ was barely mentioned in this year's TAM promotional materials (did he participate in any of the panels? I think I missed that, and I was there). That did seem strange. In previous years he was always mentioned as one of the speakers, IIRC. So maybe this wasn't as unexpected as many people think.

Last edited by AdMan; 2nd September 2014 at 11:01 PM.
AdMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 12:11 AM   #162
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,668
Mod WarningBickering and off topic posts have been split to AAH.

Please keep to the topic of the thread, and do take the time to re-read the MA if you are having trouble remembering what you agreed to.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:zooterkin
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 12:20 AM   #163
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by SinisterBen View Post
Tyson would be awesome, and has the added value of being way too popular for the crazies to smear. That would be awesome. Skepticism could possibly be identity politics free. That would be nigh utopian.
You contradicted yourself there.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 05:08 AM   #164
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
A fair point. But... how much of that decline had to do with the overall economic slump? Let's face it, TAM is expensive, and a lot of people lost a lot of money since 2009. Not to mention, when money is tight people tend to donate less to non-profits.

So I'll go far as to say there is a correlation, but it's a far cry from proving a causal connection.

ETA: It's entirely possible, assuming that the financials were the reason for DJ's sacking, that he just happened to be the poor bastard in charge when the economy went in the crapper.
Isn't that what presidents are for, to take the heat when needed, even to be a sacrificial goat at times?
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 05:21 AM   #165
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
I'm not disputing that plenty of Skepchicks and FTBers have said plenty of not-so-pleasant things about DJ Grothe.

What I am disputing is your implication that the JREF Board decided to make their decision to sack him based upon those blog posts. I'm perfectly willing to concede the point, if you can provide evidence.

So... evidence?
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Can you provide any links to show that the people who matter (e.g. Randi, Adams, Denman) give half a **** about those bloggers?
Other than PZ and Greta Christina, I doubt that Randi/Adams/Denman even know who the other #FTBullies are. They certainly don't know who the A+ loons are.
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 05:42 AM   #166
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
Hint to the JREF: JW. Too bad it's not going to happen.
Who is JW?
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 05:48 AM   #167
Cleon
King of the Pod People
 
Cleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,628
Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Who is JW?
Hint: You were on a cruise that he organized not too long ago.

You were also at his wedding.
__________________
"People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich
Cleon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 06:18 AM   #168
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,901
Rhymes with Weff Jagg?
__________________
“Knowledge is Power; France is Bacon.”
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 06:24 AM   #169
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Hint: You were on a cruise that he organized not too long ago.

You were also at his wedding.
Joe Wagg?
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 10:41 AM   #170
Phlebas
Muse
 
Phlebas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 901
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
But where does the foundation go? Randi is rather senior and can't go on forever. I still think they need a major presence, e.g. someone who can call Anderson Cooper or (OMG) Bill Reilly and get quoted or even interviewed on a topic. Neil dG Tyson would be ideal. Alas, I think he makes eleventy-seven times what they could pay and I'm not sure he could hold down his current job and be the JREF president, also. Absent Dr. Tyson, Banacek or Plait. (My choices - not yours - not the Foundation's)
MY GUESS:

Randi stays as president/figurehead/public face/etc for the rest of his life, however long that is. The board brings in (I hope) experienced NPO people for the day-to-day running of things and the lights stay on. I'd like them to go outside the skeptical community for those jobs and just get the best available. That effectively means the JREF is a tax shelter that throws an annual conference.

Randi eventually leaves us, and the JREF shuts its doors soon after. Maybe they start fresh with a different organization, I don't know. But I think we've seen the last JREF president, and he's an older version of the first JREF president.
Phlebas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 11:03 AM   #171
Dumb All Over
A Little Ugly on the Side
 
Dumb All Over's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name)
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Good point.

I seem to recall that the entire Skepticamp phenomenon also got started at about the time that DJ became JREF president (our first Chicago Skepticamp was in early 2010, I think, and we were one of the first ones). That combined with the expense of TAM (Vegas ain't cheap) and the general economic downturn seems like it could easily contribute to less money flowing into the JREF's coffers.
The very first Skepticamp was in Denver during the summer of 2007, IIRC.
__________________
The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty forum word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead."
"Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." -Steve Martin
Dumb All Over is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 11:13 AM   #172
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's all dissolving around us. Things haven't been the same since Sylvia passed. Great heroes need great enemies.

She's dead; Randi's old; I'm old.

Sadness abounds.
I had no idea. I guess this closes the door on my prediction that Randi and Browne were going to get married.

Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Not to read too much into it, but the gist of the message seemed to be "we're dumping DJ as part of our ongoing effort to actually educate people." Whether or not that's the actual intended message, it does seem that whoever wrote that announcement didn't exactly bend over backwards to ensure DJ didn't have any hard feelings.
I thought the announcement was strange, certainly if you're fired from a large organization the public announcement drips with platitudes and often the fired individual is allowed the fiction of resignation.

I didn't understand the alphabet soup of speculation about sexual harassment being the reason very well, but in the absence of some other plausible reason it seems possible to me. It provides an explanation for the minimalist announcement of the change.

Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
There's actually plenty of evidence to suggest what's going on.

The steady financial decline since DJ started, for instance.
Assuming this was the case, I would have expected a routine announcement of the change that thanked Grothe for his services and wished him well in his new ventures.

Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
...
In any case, it's obvious there's more going on behind the scenes than most of us are aware of.

...
That seems like the only thing knowable at this point.

Some uninformed speculation that I don't have evidence for:
I thought there might be something to the estate planning idea. Perhaps Randi is in the process of planning how something of JREF survives him. Randi still seems to be mentally sharp and he probably is aware that the JREF he created depends on his celebrity for its existence. That idea supports the notion that JREF could be folded into an existing skeptic organization that is less dependent on the celebrity of the founder but that has a more stable base for its existence.

Although, even though Randi seems to be a pretty well known celebrity, based on anecdotal polling I've done he is not as well known as I thought.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 11:29 AM   #173
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
Although, even though Randi seems to be a pretty well known celebrity, based on anecdotal polling I've done he is not as well known as I thought.
He's not very well known at all. Every year, people ask why I'm going to Vegas. When I tell them "for Randi's conference", I've never met a single person who knew who he was. Even at local Skeptics In The Pub events, I've met skeptics, especially younger ones, who have no idea who he is.
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 11:40 AM   #174
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
I thought the announcement was strange, certainly if you're fired from a large organization the public announcement drips with platitudes and often the fired individual is allowed the fiction of resignation.

I didn't understand the alphabet soup of speculation about sexual harassment being the reason very well, but in the absence of some other plausible reason it seems possible to me. It provides an explanation for the minimalist announcement of the change.
Although, Darat was similarly kicked to the curb, having administered this forum for years on a volunteer basis, and not so much as a heads-up about the changes nor a thank you. In fact, the only word from JREF (that I saw) was in the stickied thread above, where the lady representing jref (forget her name) posted some ungenerous, and apparently untrue, things about emails sent by Darat.

It may just be that Randi is running things, and he's insensitive to these formalities. I dunno.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 12:16 PM   #175
kajata
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,177
Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
He's not very well known at all. Every year, people ask why I'm going to Vegas. When I tell them "for Randi's conference", I've never met a single person who knew who he was. Even at local Skeptics In The Pub events, I've met skeptics, especially younger ones, who have no idea who he is.
He needs to get on Happy Days again.

Kids still love The Fonz, right?
kajata is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 01:26 PM   #176
wardenclyffe
Master Poster
 
wardenclyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,333
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Although, Darat was similarly kicked to the curb, having administered this forum for years on a volunteer basis, and not so much as a heads-up about the changes nor a thank you. In fact, the only word from JREF (that I saw) was in the stickied thread above, where the lady representing jref (forget her name) posted some ungenerous, and apparently untrue, things about emails sent by Darat.

It may just be that Randi is running things, and he's insensitive to these formalities. I dunno.
Except that Darat is not gone and is still working with the forum. I think there was some early mis-handling of the forum situation, but cool heads seem to be working to make the transition easy. Darat is one of those cool heads.

Ward
__________________
~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~
- Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347
wardenclyffe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 02:50 PM   #177
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
Originally Posted by wardenclyffe View Post
Except that Darat is not gone and is still working with the forum. I think there was some early mis-handling of the forum situation, but cool heads seem to be working to make the transition easy. Darat is one of those cool heads.

Ward
I think his point was that the mishandling of the Darat situation suggests that the Grothe announcement could be just another example of clumsiness at dealing with these kind of situations by the powers that be at JREF.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 05:14 PM   #178
Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North of the White Line of Toldt
Posts: 3,141
Originally Posted by kajata View Post
He needs to get on Happy Days again.

Kids still love The Fonz, right?
Who?
Ampulla of Vater is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 05:49 PM   #179
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Isn't that what presidents are for, to take the heat when needed, even to be a sacrificial goat at times?
A fair point. After all, DJ was the public face of the JREF. It's easy to kill the messenger.

My concern is that perhaps there are even deeper problems than those that might be attributed to DJ. If there is still considerable dysfunction on the JREF Board, then I don't see things getting better anytime soon.

I hope I'm wrong.
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 05:53 PM   #180
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
He's not very well known at all. Every year, people ask why I'm going to Vegas. When I tell them "for Randi's conference", I've never met a single person who knew who he was. Even at local Skeptics In The Pub events, I've met skeptics, especially younger ones, who have no idea who he is.
There's that. The earlier suggestion from another competing events is also a very good point; many of the non-VIP/speakers who attend skeptic events have neither the money nor the time to budget several of these conferences per year and have to be selective. The economic downturn, plus just economic wisdom in general, might be leading people to stay closer to home. International events like the London gathering and the Galapagos cruise were quite costly and might have depleted some attendees' resources for an extended period of time.

Certainly for some, the urgency to attend TAM (or attend it again) began to wane once it seemed clearly to become a regular event that would continue to be held for the predictable future.

If what some say about DJ is true - that he was basically hired to handle TAM - then there doesn't have to be some deeper motivation for letting him go than the JREF deciding not to do TAM anymore. This could well be due to declining return - but that doesn't necessarily mean DJ was blamed for that, or that there was ever necessarily considered a "fault" to assign.

TAMs were fun for skeptics; but despite the valiant efforts of many, they were ultimately never anything more than a bunch of already-skeptics gathering to gam about how skeptical they are while they listen to skeptical speakers rehash the exact same skeptical talking points about the same issues for yet an umpteenth time and occasionally peddle skeptic-books doing same. Yeah, it feels kind of cheap characterizing it in such a way and I don't mean to imply that such a meeting can't be a perfectly acceptable end unto itself, and I'm sure plenty of people will be able to chime in about something new they actually learned at a TAM; but the point is, it wasn't outreach or education in the public sense that JREF has professed interest in since whenever. It was just choir-preaching and hobnobbing. A decade of TAM does not seem to have created any more visibility or awareness of the JREF, the MDC, or skepticism generally, in the public consciousness. Meanwhile, I wouldn't be surprised if TAM or TAM-related tasks began to dominate or monopolize more and more of the JREF's resources as time went on.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2014, 06:04 PM   #181
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
TAMs were fun for skeptics; but despite the valiant efforts of many, they were ultimately never anything more than a bunch of already-skeptics gathering to gam about how skeptical they are while they listen to skeptical speakers rehash the exact same skeptical talking points about the same issues for yet an umpteenth time and occasionally peddle skeptic-books doing same. Yeah, it feels kind of cheap characterizing it in such a way and I don't mean to imply that such a meeting can't be a perfectly acceptable end unto itself, and I'm sure plenty of people will be able to chime in about something new they actually learned at a TAM; but the point is, it wasn't outreach or education in the public sense that JREF has professed interest in since whenever. It was just choir-preaching and hobnobbing. A decade of TAM does not seem to have created any more visibility or awareness of the JREF, the MDC, or skepticism generally, in the public consciousness. Meanwhile, I wouldn't be surprised if TAM or TAM-related tasks began to dominate or monopolize more and more of the JREF's resources as time went on.
Yeah, this was one of the reasons TAM started to become less fun for me as the years went on (I haven't attended since 2012). Don't get me wrong, I always had fun at TAM when I went, but once the sheen of being a new TAMer wore off I started to notice the same thing you mentioned.

Eventually, I became more involved in TAM on the "inside", so to speak: I participated in the TAM Talent Shows (never won, but it was fun), I helped to run a few Skepticism in the Classroom workshops, I helped to run two vaccination clinics at TAM, and I even was consulted a couple of times on the MDC (where I once got into a yelling match with Jamy Ian Swiss that he later thanked me for *swoons*).

As time went on, I was less and less interested in being in "the big room" with almost everyone else watching presentations, discussions, and lectures. So that side of it wore off for me.

In the last couple of years I didn't go to TAM because of financial reasons (I bought a new house last year) and the fact that I wasn't previously scheduled to do anything specific to education (like a workshop, etc). So I couldn't justify the expense.

Hopefully I'll go next year
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2014, 05:59 AM   #182
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
I don't go to TAM to "learn" anything. I don't go to software conferences to learn anything either. I go to hang out with friends, make new friends, and hear some interesting talks. And drink.
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2014, 06:30 AM   #183
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
It's sad that something I care a great deal about is small potatoes. I suppose this is how people who collect wishniks feel.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2014, 03:37 PM   #184
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,901
LA JREF office closes, D.J. Grothe no longer with the JREF

Pfeh. Topicality is for n00bs.

ETA: Heard that Ray Hall will be organising TAM2015. So that's sort of topical, yeah?
__________________
“Knowledge is Power; France is Bacon.”

Last edited by d4m10n; 4th September 2014 at 03:48 PM. Reason: ETA
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2014, 09:10 PM   #185
MattusMaximus
Intellectual Gladiator
 
MattusMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,948
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Pfeh. Topicality is for n00bs.

ETA: Heard that Ray Hall will be organising TAM2015. So that's sort of topical, yeah?
Where'd you hear that?
__________________
Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher
"We ****** up the air, the water, we ****** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?" -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness
MattusMaximus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2014, 09:11 PM   #186
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,901
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Where'd you hear that?

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...ing-ahead.html
__________________
“Knowledge is Power; France is Bacon.”
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2014, 09:59 PM   #187
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Pfeh. Topicality is for n00bs.

ETA: Heard that Ray Hall will be organising TAM2015. So that's sort of topical, yeah?
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post

I greet this news with cautious optimism. Ray Hall has done an outstanding job running the Sunday Papers for many years. I've always thought that the decrease in time allotted for these talks the last few years was a big mistake. Hopefully with Ray in charge, this trend will be reversed.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2014, 10:19 PM   #188
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
Ray is top notch. This is good news indeed.
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 02:45 AM   #189
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
In my opinion, the best TAM years were pre-DJ.
Back when they had real musicians instead?

Personally, I could never figure out why the JREF needed a DJ in the first place.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 06:42 AM   #190
Brive1987
Muse
 
Brive1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
It's not all that mysterious. Let's state the obvious.

TAM is safe, even as you all mostly acknowledge it has no role in outreach.
Million dollar oddity is safe.

The new educational hand waving is un-budgeted and un-specified. Ie no strategy at all. Barely aspirational. DJs 100 grand isn't going to bankroll much of a new curriculum given the continuation of TAM management overheads.

Really, all that has happened is that DJ has been burnt together with the forums. In as unprofessional a fashion as could be imagined. Even the attempted smoke screen was a farce.

Bravo. Go Randi. Go JREF. You make me proud.

Last edited by Brive1987; 5th September 2014 at 06:59 AM.
Brive1987 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 07:17 AM   #191
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,901
Originally Posted by Brive1987 View Post
…DJ has been burnt together with the forums. In as unprofessional a fashion as could be imagined. Even the attempted smoke screen was a farce.

Agreed.

Still waiting for the third shoe to drop.
__________________
“Knowledge is Power; France is Bacon.”
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 07:25 AM   #192
Denver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Denver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,015
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Agreed.

Still waiting for the third shoe to drop.
The Sharon Hill presidency?
__________________
Dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions -- Invader Zim
Denver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 07:28 AM   #193
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 11,901
LA JREF office closes, D.J. Grothe no longer with the JREF

Originally Posted by Denver View Post
The Sharon Hill presidency?

If that's third shoe, I'll be relieved. She's good people, IMO.
__________________
“Knowledge is Power; France is Bacon.”

Last edited by d4m10n; 5th September 2014 at 07:29 AM. Reason: deleted pretense of humilty
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 08:02 AM   #194
Denver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Denver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,015
That, and/or acquiring Doubtful News?
__________________
Dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions -- Invader Zim
Denver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 08:25 AM   #195
Joe Random
Illuminator
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,083
Originally Posted by Denver View Post
The Sharon Hill presidency?

Radial Tire re-instated as a mod at the new forums?
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 03:37 PM   #196
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
Originally Posted by Brive1987 View Post
It's not all that mysterious. Let's state the obvious.

TAM is safe, even as you all mostly acknowledge it has no role in outreach.
Million dollar oddity is safe.

The new educational hand waving is un-budgeted and un-specified. Ie no strategy at all. Barely aspirational. DJs 100 grand isn't going to bankroll much of a new curriculum given the continuation of TAM management overheads.
Unspecified here in the forum, you mean. No strategy having been posted here in the forum. Unless you have special awareness of the issue, for instance from personally attending actual board meetings and such, this is baseless. To my knowledge, the JREF has never posted such particulars about its business in the forum at any time during my decade-plus of usership here.

Since TAM overhead existed and was covered while DJ was still being paid his 100 grand, it doesn't make sense to suggest the continuance of TAM necessarily means that cash would not be available to use for spending on other things; but at any rate, it should be pointed out that the closing of the office in California represents a freeing up of more than just DJ's salary.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 04:03 PM   #197
Denver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Denver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,015
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Unspecified here in the forum, you mean. No strategy having been posted here in the forum. Unless you have special awareness of the issue, for instance from personally attending actual board meetings and such, this is baseless. To my knowledge, the JREF has never posted such particulars about its business in the forum at any time during my decade-plus of usership here.

Since TAM overhead existed and was covered while DJ was still being paid his 100 grand, it doesn't make sense to suggest the continuance of TAM necessarily means that cash would not be available to use for spending on other things; but at any rate, it should be pointed out that the closing of the office in California represents a freeing up of more than just DJ's salary.
It looks to me (based on the last three-year 990 filings) that Randi's total compensation is about 15% of the prior year's total revenues. So he's gone from 150K to 250K down to 200K. But last year's revenue was not pretty, and 15% of it is around 130K.

I speculate that part of the reorganization is to get that compensation back up for this year, regardless of the 15% trend of the past. Maybe DJ's 100K, and the office closing, will be part of that.

Total speculation, of course.
__________________
Dreams inevitably lead to hideous implosions -- Invader Zim
Denver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 06:23 PM   #198
Brive1987
Muse
 
Brive1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 556
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Unspecified here in the forum, you mean. No strategy having been posted here in the forum. Unless you have special awareness of the issue, for instance from personally attending actual board meetings and such, this is baseless. To my knowledge, the JREF has never posted such particulars about its business in the forum at any time during my decade-plus of usership here.

Since TAM overhead existed and was covered while DJ was still being paid his 100 grand, it doesn't make sense to suggest the continuance of TAM necessarily means that cash would not be available to use for spending on other things; but at any rate, it should be pointed out that the closing of the office in California represents a freeing up of more than just DJ's salary.
It is traditional when communicating "a big new strategy and change of direction" to have done enough work to be be able to supply enough detail to enthuse the troops. It's about credibility.

Now naturally everything said here is opinion (duh) - but (IMHO) the release smacks heavily of hand waving smokescreen rather than (say) Point 2 of a considered marketing strategy for a newly mapped out focus.

Also, it has been a consensus here on the thread that DJ's job was to run TAM. Either by intent or by default. The opening premise was that no DJ = no TAM = more money and focus for the Big New Strategy.

Keeping TAM (and the requirement for a manager) kind of mucks this calculus up - no?

Last edited by Brive1987; 5th September 2014 at 07:43 PM.
Brive1987 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 07:30 PM   #199
Howie Felterbush
Bow Tie Daddy
 
Howie Felterbush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: In the twilight, singing all the old lullabies
Posts: 7,599
So that's who D J Grothe is.

I kept getting e-mails from him (or her) and I just assumed he was looking to play at my wedding or bar mitzvah or something.
__________________
"Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts
"I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962
"You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur
"...wing collars are like an ocular violation."-TubbaBlubba
Howie Felterbush is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2014, 07:42 PM   #200
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,185
Originally Posted by Brive1987 View Post
Also, it has been a consensus here on the thread that DJ's job was to run TAM.
While we're at it let's settle the pesky "Pluto, planet or not" question by vote here.

And let's just pick some simple date for Easter.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » Welcome to ISF » Other Skeptical Organizations » JREF

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:39 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.