ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th April 2007, 11:01 AM   #41
negativ
Graduate Poster
 
negativ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,904
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Yes T.A.M. I give a lot of thought to most of my posts..usually well before I make them.
And clearly, most of that lot of thought is somewhat deranged. Explain this to me:

* When were the explosives planted?

* Not ONE PERSON who was "in on it" has chosen to go public, go on 60 Minutes or whatever, sign what would certainly be a multi-billion dollar book deal, instantly become a household name all across the world, and single-handedly expose the biggest story ever told. Why?

* Who gives a crap about WTC7 anyway? Some of you guys make it sound like the whole point of 9/11 was to destroy WTC7, and everything else was just a diversion. What does the Big Bad Them gain from destroying WTC7?

* If They were going to destroy it all along, why not just SAY they did it, and lie about the reasons? Do you really think your imaginary plotters are so stupid that they never expected anyone would puzzle about WTC7?

* What could convince you that you are wrong?

* Let's pretend for a minute that you're 100% correct. What do you suppose the "real" plotters (i.e. the NWO) think of you spouting conspiracy theories on the internet?

* Let's pretend for a minute that you're 100% wrong. What do you suppose the "real" plotters (i.e. Zawahiri, bin Laden, and Pals) think of you spouting conspiracy theories on the internet?
__________________
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals.
Eternal salvation or TRIPLE your money back!
negativ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 11:03 AM   #42
JimBenArm
Based on a true story!
 
JimBenArm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,092
I wanted a new myth, but the sex change operation cost too much.
__________________
"JimBenArm is right" Hokulele Mom
JimBenArm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 11:18 AM   #43
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
Originally Posted by ConspiRaider View Post
Hiya Doc -

You're being facetious, right? Regarding MM and his writing "ability"? Thanks Doc. Thought so. You had me scared for just a second.

It is not creative, and you have to start with that if your manuscript is a gonna have it some legs. MM's thing is drivel, lamely assembled into "dialogue" in a pathetic attempt to dramatize the issue. He failed. Drama rating: zero point zero.

It is not screenplay material. Where are the 3 acts? I don't see them, do you? Nope - and you're even using your stethoscope, Doc. Lacks the 3-act structure, too much dialogue, no indication of setting, boring characterizations, no distinction between characters - this motion picture ain't movin'. A reader over at Paramount would use this screenplay as a droppings grabber for the gerbil cage on his and/or her desk.

It ain't funny. I mean if you are going to use sarcasm or similes or proxies or parallels to deliver the thrust of your premise within a humorous construct - ya gots to know what yer doin'. This is MM. Need I say more?

I heard tell that MM makes his living by licking the soup can labels and sticking them on the cream of mushroom. He should keep that day job, look ahead to retirement.

Yes I was being sarcastic. I am well aware of the structure of a screenplay. I have read Trottier and Syd field, in screenwriting, as well as Joseph Campbell in terms of the Heroe's Journey. I do have hobbies besides this one ya know...lol. 1st act 15-20 pages, setup, introduce main characters, protagonist, etc...2nd act, 60-80 pages, obstacles to overcome, main location to develop character arc. 3rd act, climax and resolution. Revelation, etc....blah blah blah...lol

Perhaps I should have said he has the ideas for great fiction...lol

All that said, obviously there is a reason I persued Medicine as a career instead of writing.

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 12:02 PM   #44
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 10,750
Originally Posted by Miragememories
Hmm..let's see

---



---

Yes T.A.M. I give a lot of thought to most of my posts..usually well before I make them.

Originally Posted by JonnyFive View Post
Eh... I liked T.A.M.'s version better.
[sarcasm]Ya gotta learn, J5--They even cherry-pick their own quotes. If you saw the entire thing, it would be something like "I give a lot of thought to most of my posts..usually well before I make them, but I go lie down until I've quite forgotten anything sane"[/sarcasm]






__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 12:10 PM   #45
ConspiRaider
Writer of Nothingnesses
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,156
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Yes I was being sarcastic. I am well aware of the structure of a screenplay. I have read Trottier and Syd field, in screenwriting, as well as Joseph Campbell in terms of the Heroe's Journey. I do have hobbies besides this one ya know...lol. 1st act 15-20 pages, setup, introduce main characters, protagonist, etc...2nd act, 60-80 pages, obstacles to overcome, main location to develop character arc. 3rd act, climax and resolution. Revelation, etc....blah blah blah...lol

Perhaps I should have said he has the ideas for great fiction...lol

All that said, obviously there is a reason I persued Medicine as a career instead of writing.

TAM
Yah I knew you were being sarcastic. It was just an "in" to slam the idiocy spewed from MM.

I'm writing my 2nd screenplay and it will probably be as successful as the first. I think we can say that's a given.

I'm 49. Too late to become a sawbones? I'd have a unique bedside manner - I'd kick the patient in the ass until they got better.

Any correspondence courses in cutting folks open for their own good that I can peruse? I read real good, even sometimes learn things by doing that very thing.
ConspiRaider is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 12:15 PM   #46
defaultdotxbe
Drunken Shikigami
 
defaultdotxbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,474
Originally Posted by ConspiRaider View Post
Any correspondence courses in cutting folks open for their own good that I can peruse? I read real good, even sometimes learn things by doing that very thing.
aw you dont need classes, its all common sense, cut someone open (you know hwo to carve a turkey, right?) and if you dont recognize a bit, its probably bad so go ahead and cut it out
__________________
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein
defaultdotxbe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 12:28 PM   #47
ConspiRaider
Writer of Nothingnesses
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,156
Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
aw you dont need classes, its all common sense, cut someone open (you know hwo to carve a turkey, right?) and if you dont recognize a bit, its probably bad so go ahead and cut it out
I think you're right. It's all instinct. Books? Harrumph! Harrumph, Harrumph, HARRUMPH! I didn't get a "harrumph" outta that guy! (sorry, flashed into Blazing Saddles).

On the other hand I can use the technique demonstrated by our esteemed James Randi on the Johnny Carson show, didja see that? Surgery without instruments. Best thing about that demonstration is when Randi pulls out an inner organ, pauses, then says: "Oh no, that doesn't come up." Then shoves it back in.
ConspiRaider is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 01:05 PM   #48
JonnyFive
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,459
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
[sarcasm]Ya gotta learn, J5--They even cherry-pick their own quotes. If you saw the entire thing, it would be something like "I give a lot of thought to most of my posts..usually well before I make them, but I go lie down until I've quite forgotten anything sane"[/sarcasm]
I've yet to see any evidence to the contrary.
JonnyFive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 02:19 PM   #49
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
Its not the cutting part that needs teaching. Its the anatomy underneath, where everything is, how deep you can go before you hit certain things, what you have to go through to get to certain places. What you can and cannot cut...that type of thing...lol

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 02:39 PM   #50
JimBenArm
Based on a true story!
 
JimBenArm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,092
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Its not the cutting part that needs teaching. Its the anatomy underneath, where everything is, how deep you can go before you hit certain things, what you have to go through to get to certain places. What you can and cannot cut...that type of thing...lol

TAM
Yeah, that's what you say! I say just hack away till you get to the good stuff.
Darn experts never want us lay people to have any fun!
__________________
"JimBenArm is right" Hokulele Mom
JimBenArm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 02:51 PM   #51
ConspiRaider
Writer of Nothingnesses
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,156
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Its not the cutting part that needs teaching. Its the anatomy underneath, where everything is, how deep you can go before you hit certain things, what you have to go through to get to certain places. What you can and cannot cut...that type of thing...lol

TAM
So it's kind of like changing spark plugs on a modern automovehicle? What a pain that is. Last time I tried that, I had to remove the 4 tires and even strip off the Klear-Kote finish. They bury those bad boys, lemme tell ya.

I'm gonna become a lung surgeon, if I could? That way if I screw up, no problemo. Dude's got another lung to breathe with. Don't be a crybaby, Mac. Take two IV lines and call me in the mourning.
ConspiRaider is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 03:09 PM   #52
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
Should be a plastic surgeon. Just cut stuff off, repair other stuff, inject here, suck out there...lol

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th April 2007, 04:34 PM   #53
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Hmm..let's see

---

WORDS

---

Yes T.A.M. I give a lot of thought to most of my posts..usually well before I make them.

MM


You're not a very good writer...

-Gumboot
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2007, 07:17 AM   #54
Miragememories
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,473
Well it's nice to see I moved T.A.M. into the limelight.

You folks are a 'laugh riot'. You'll attack anything that moves.

I make no claims as a writer. Especially a quick spinoff in reply to T.A.M.'s pseudo dialogue.

My point was, and I stand by it, that NIST's administrators will place their political and material existence ahead of their professional credibility.

Anyway, back to my day job.

MM
Miragememories is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2007, 07:28 AM   #55
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 10,493
[quote=Miragememories;2506618]My point was, and I stand by it, that NIST's administrators will place their political and material existence ahead of their professional credibility.

Anyway, back to my day job./QUOTE]The ignorance and arrogance shown by that statement is beyond belief. Who the **** are you? You have no "professional credibility". You bring nothing to the discussion except what your uneducated eyes see and read. Exactly, MM, who the **** are you to question others "professional credibility"? You don't have evidence, you don't have any facts, you just blow **** out your *** and smugly return to your Internet anonymity.

Tell me, MM, on your "day job" are you allowed to accuse your co-workers of crimes without evidence? Does your manager allow you to make claims without facts and evidence?
__________________
For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2007, 07:38 AM   #56
DarkMagician
Graduate Poster
 
DarkMagician's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,529
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
To accept your offering would raise the expectation of discovering these reactions all over the place.

MM
__________________
Sometimes going by "Nyke" | "Pascal's Wager: Believe in Unicorns, or one might kick you in the nads!" | "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la!" --c4ts | Intelligent Design & Expelled Exposed | I'm on dial-up. If you want to reply to me, summarize please.
DarkMagician is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2007, 01:31 PM   #57
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Well it's nice to see I moved T.A.M. into the limelight.

You folks are a 'laugh riot'. You'll attack anything that moves.

I make no claims as a writer. Especially a quick spinoff in reply to T.A.M.'s pseudo dialogue.

My point was, and I stand by it, that NIST's administrators will place their political and material existence ahead of their professional credibility.

Anyway, back to my day job.

MM
Well I thank you for that MM. You know me, always wanting the spotlight. I am always trying to get attention here...yes indeed.

As for my pseudo-dialogue, I appreciate your attempt to insult, but I am quite confident in my ability to communicate, so you are gonna have to pick another area to get me upset.

My comments were a reflection on how wild and outrageous some of your ideas and assumptions were, and that it might make good as inspiration for a fictional work...it was sarcasm, yes. Sorry it was not very good.

As for your comment on what NIST will do, do you have even ONE SINGLE PIECE OF PROOF, that this is what the NIST scientists would do, or have done. Why on this earth would you assume this is what they would do. Do you think everyone on earth is this shallow, this materialistic. Would you like others to think YOU are this way...or is it that you think everyone is like this, BECAUSE you yourself are like it?

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2007, 03:14 PM   #58
pomeroo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,081
Skeptosis lacks the stones to post here, so I'll help him out. Here is his reply to TAM on Smasher's site.


Skeptosis wrote:

the artistic macrophage said...

Are you saying that NIST has said that NO METAL WAS RECOVERED by ANYONE from WTC7, or that THEY did not recieve any or They did not analyze any themselves.


TAM, I'm not a mind reader and I wouldn't presume to 'embellish' the public record with a guess as to what they might've meant. maybe 'truthiness' wants to give it a shot.

All i'm doing is providing a direct, verbatim, linked quote from NIST:

"Although no steel was recovered from WTC 7, a 47-story building that also collapsed on September 11, properties for steel used in its construction were estimated based on literature and contemporaneous documents."

- NIST NCSTAR 1-3: Mechanical and Metallurgical Analysis of Structural Steel

As I've said repeatedly on this blog, and my own blog, and my unanswered emails to WPI and NIST, the 'literature and contemporaneous documents' aren't going to show structural steel with silver dollar-sized holes burned through it, or inch-thick steel columns reduced to half-inch thickness.

Only the actual physical evidence, the steel samples from WTC7, will exhibit that unique phenomenon. And it smacks of 'plausible deniability', in that they can claim "NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event" re: WTC7, as long as they continue to ignore the existence of those melted steel samples which were in the possession of FEMA or WPI.

-

the artistic macrophage said...

Perhaps, they read FEMA's analysis of the metal, and decided it was sound, and no need to reanalyze.

Not sure, what exactly did they say??


here's exactly what they said in FEMA 403 Appendix C:

"Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure" - FEMA 403 C-1.

"The eutectic temperature for this mixture strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached 1,000 C (1,800 F), which is substantially lower than would be expected for melting this steel." - FEMA 403 C-2

"The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. ... A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires." - FEMA 403 C-13


I've put emphasis on the sections of the above quotes which make it obvious that WPI's analysis for FEMA was inconclusive (far from 'sound'), and that there was clearly a need (explicitly stated on the last page [C-13] of Appendix C, under the heading 'Suggestions for Future Research') to 'reanalyze'.

-

Further, the three WPI Professors of Engineering who conducted the analysis for FEMA were interviewed in 'Transformations', for a piece entitled The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel (not sure if PM, or any of you 'debunkers', have contacted these experts to tell them that the whole 'melted steel' thing is just a conspiradroid myth...)

excerpts from that article, emphasis mine:

"...metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese."

"The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation.""

"A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes."

"The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow. (Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community."


That was FIVE YEARS AGO. Since then, there's been no further investigation, no publication of results, NOTHING.

I contacted Professor Barnett last May to find out the status of their 'continuing' studies, and the status of the steel samples, and have still not received a reply.

I contacted Michael Newman @ NIST to see if he was aware that there ARE samples of steel from WTC7 waiting to be analyzed, and have still not received a reply.



And so i ask you again: is it really such an outlandish question, to ask why NIST has been ignoring this evidence?
pomeroo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th April 2007, 06:12 PM   #59
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
All I have to say about this is:

1. Thanks for answering my question.
2. NIST is probably aware of the FEMA study, and either (a) chooses to leave it as is, satisfied (unlike the truth movement) with what results it confers, or (b) will add it, and perhaps add to it, within the final WTC7 Report...still pending.
3. I am not a metallurgist, so beyond that I am not sure what he wants me to say..."bad, bad NIST" perhaps, for not looking into the possibility that explosives might have been used in WTC7...

I'm not gonna say it, all the truthers say it, and thats enough.

TAM

PS: If I get around to CS Blog tonight, I'll redirect him to here.
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:46 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.