ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism , bible

Reply
Old 19th July 2017, 12:55 PM   #1721
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,447
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So apart from the atheists who were largely atheist because they were communists, they never actually organised a moral resistance.
Apart from the good Christians, there are nothing but bad Christians.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 12:57 PM   #1722
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,447
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Martin Luther died in 1546.
No kidding.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 01:02 PM   #1723
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No kidding.
Luther hardly 'wrote the script' for Hitler in 1939.

Hitler was brought up a Catholic.

Luther would not have meant anything to him.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 01:10 PM   #1724
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,447
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Luther hardly 'wrote the script' for Hitler in 1939.

Hitler was brought up a Catholic.

Luther would not have meant anything to him.
I just showed you Luther's opinions. Hitler cited Luther and Nazi's used Lutheran literature to whip up antisemitism. And what the heck is your point in pointing out that Hitler was raised Christian?
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 02:06 PM   #1725
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,919
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, and as I said, they were not charged with war crimes, because being an active Nazi was not illegal at the time. You cannot be charged if there is no law against it.
What you are doing is conflating two groups of people.

One group is "members of the Nazi party"

The other is "people who committed war crimes and crimes against humanity"

While there is considerable overlap, membership in one group does not require membership in the other. Many of the high ranking members of the German military were not members of the Nazi party, but were convicted of war crimes or crimes against humanity. Conversely, many members of the Nazi party were not involved in either war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Membership in the Nazi party was never declared a criminal offence.

Quote:
If it is true that, 'Those that were could not use "only obeying orders" as a legal defence', how come only circa 300 at most were hanged, and roughly 1,500 ordinary citizens were convicted and had light sentences of on average three years?
Sliding scale of punishments.

Quote:
How does that reconcile with >6million Germany citizens genocided.

It obviously does not.
Not all the victims of the Holocaust were German. Most of the victims were Polish or Soviet citizens.

How many people do you think were actually involved? Not every Landser guarded a death camp or was assigned to the Einsatzgruppen.

Quote:
This is because the laws of Third Reich Germany (or lack thereof) meant the millions (yes, MILLIONS) of Germans who actively participated in the genocide got off scot-free.
How do you figure that millions of Germans participated in genocide?

Quote:
So back to the debating point raised by the OP: is it really harder to abide by laws 'and easy to be a Christian, as they get grace'?

I think this illustrates perfectly that on the contrary, it is much harder to be a Christian than a Godless person who yet abides by the law of the State.

In keeping with the example of Nazi Germany, the bulk of Germans felt themselves to be Christian of some flavour, the military stamped "Gott Mitt Uns"(God is with us) on the belt buckles and most went along with their government.

Using a more modern example the Christian Hutus committed genocide against the Christian Tutsis.

Being a decent human being is challenging no matter what your beliefs are.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 03:24 PM   #1726
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 14,542
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
What you are doing is conflating two groups of people.

One group is "members of the Nazi party"

The other is "people who committed war crimes and crimes against humanity"

While there is considerable overlap, membership in one group does not require membership in the other. Many of the high ranking members of the German military were not members of the Nazi party, but were convicted of war crimes or crimes against humanity. Conversely, many members of the Nazi party were not involved in either war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Membership in the Nazi party was never declared a criminal offence.



Sliding scale of punishments.



Not all the victims of the Holocaust were German. Most of the victims were Polish or Soviet citizens.

How many people do you think were actually involved? Not every Landser guarded a death camp or was assigned to the Einsatzgruppen.



How do you figure that millions of Germans participated in genocide?




In keeping with the example of Nazi Germany, the bulk of Germans felt themselves to be Christian of some flavour, the military stamped "Gott Mitt Uns"(God is with us) on the belt buckles and most went along with their government.

Using a more modern example the Christian Hutus committed genocide against the Christian Tutsis.

Being a decent human being is challenging no matter what your beliefs are.
And riffing on Dawkins a bit, a belief in a "higher purpose" can lead well-intentioned people to do evil, and think they are doing good.

It doesn't need to be religion, but often it is. However, a belief that this is the only existence we have, and we create the only meaning by our actions, and any good has to be in this world is not likely to lead to committing atrocities in the service of a fictional higher good.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 03:43 PM   #1727
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,546
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So apart from the atheists who were largely atheist because they were communists, they never actually organised a moral resistance.
As shown, atheists cooperated in some opposition groups, like the Red OrchestraWP along with Christians, Jews and others. Some other atheists supported the Nazis. Some religious people supported the Nazis too. Some atheist organisations were opposed to the Nazis, like the Communists and the Free Thinkers. There were religious and atheists on both sides. The German armed forces had religious chaplains throughout the War, from the main denominations.

Religious people and atheists were equally capable of opposing Nazis, or supporting them. The were equally capable of moral vice or virtue in this regard.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 04:21 PM   #1728
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I was referring to Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommando
First, you seem to have a very quaint notion of what a "long word" is. It's not long, at least not for German. Second, it surprises me that with your research you'd forget such a basic word.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You cannot dismiss this as, 'Oh it was just a bunch of people breaking the law'.

This was carried out by the state under Hitler's military dictatorship and as such was not against Third Reich law, just as being a Nazi was not.

This was not as appears from your post a case of the killing squads victims being 'targeted by the SS in their retaliation against Soviet partisans'.
You have a serious reading comprehension problem. I didn't speak of killing squads targeting the SS, I spoke of SS killing squads; qualitatively the same as the Einsatzgruppen (whose orders came from Heydrich and Himmler, not from Hitler, but never mind).

Their orders coming from the highest echelons of the Nazi state doesn't make them legal. They rounded up Jews and mass-murdered them. That was obviously against international law. Here's the The Hague Convention IV of 1907, the Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, Annex, art. 23:
Quote:
Art. 23. In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden
(a) To employ poison or poisoned weapons;
(b) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
(c) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
...
That was the law of war, and they broke it. It doesn't matter one iota if the order came from Heydrich, Himmler or Hitler personally; the people who carried it out, carried out an illegal order and they knew it.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about AnjezŽ Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 04:25 PM   #1729
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There were no laws against it (see reference to the Einsatzgruppen above). As a military order, there was no democratic route (being a fascist dictatorship). Hitler ordered it, the masses obeyed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution


All of this was acting within Germany's laws at the time.

As I say, I researched the Einsatzkommando as to Germany's war strategy. I can't say I am familiar with Oster and Canaris, but I will look them up.
See my answer above. German law does not matter one iota. The vast majority of the Holocaust was carried out outside Germany's borders, in conquered territory. Mass murdering people in conquered territory was against the (unwritten) rules of war long before the The Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 put that in writing.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about AnjezŽ Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 04:27 PM   #1730
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They were not 'gangs'. For the most part they were members of the elite SS-Stormtroopers.

The Gestapo elite were given expensive black leather clothing, were driven around in sleek black limos and enjoyed wonderful headquarters.

No, they were not 'just a random bunch of criminals'.

What they did in their occupied territories was a reenactment of what was going on within Germany.
It sounds as if you've been watching reruns of 'Allo 'Allo.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about AnjezŽ Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 04:39 PM   #1731
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Martin Luther died in 1546.
Wow. He was still the spiritual leader of roughly half the German people.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Luther hardly 'wrote the script' for Hitler in 1939.

Hitler was brought up a Catholic.

Luther would not have meant anything to him.
And being brought up catholic means he was free of antisemitism? Hell, the RCC only denounced their antisemitism after Auschwitz.

Matthew 27:25: "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

They're Christ killers, after all. That's been Christian doctrine for nearly 2,000 years, in whatever denomination.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about AnjezŽ Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 04:55 PM   #1732
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,546
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Thanks for that, but did you attend my comment that the 'Reds' encouraging citizens to design and distribute pamphlets led to many being executed, whilst the Red agitators claimed hero-status. The victors get to paint themselves as heroes.
Your comment in fact was
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... It is important to remember that all the Russian boasts about how they led resistance against the Nazi is a lot of hot air as secret communists got many ordinary people to 'become active' who were then summarily executed later. Of course, the victors get to paint themselves as the heroes. But it is never as black and white as that.
Now give me examples of what you mean, as religious opponents are rightly also honoured, including the White Rose.

But the comment about Russians I really thought was a joke or an aberration of your mind. The bloodiest part of the struggle against the Nazis was the war resulting from Hitler's attack on the USSR and the subsequent four year war, in which the USSR lost upwards of twenty million dead.

Out of every ten German soldiers killed in WW2, nine were killed by the Red Army. This is not hot air. I thought your post was utterly ridiculous and I'm at a loss to know what you meant by it. Please enlighten me.

Last edited by Craig B; 19th July 2017 at 04:56 PM.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 07:37 PM   #1733
Beady
Philosopher
 
Beady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,524
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? And that script reads...?
Actually, that isn't far from the truth. First, Luther was an ant-Semite. Second, it was Luther who seems to have had the greatest influence on the German version of filial piety and obedience to authority. For a better and fuller discussion see the opening chapters of Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

This signature is intended to irritate people.
__________________
Ahh, screw it!
Beady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 11:12 PM   #1734
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 17,900
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
<snip>

Occultism, isn't really the same as religion as it is mostly to do with primitive magic and superstition.

Religion is primitive magic and superstition.

You're just impressed when it's wearing pretty new clothes.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 11:21 PM   #1735
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 17,900
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So here we come full circle. The people who carried out a systematic genocide 'were never brought up on any charges to begin with', except for a handful of 'leaders'.

Which brings me back to the point. The colluding masses were protected by law.

You have yet to show that.

All that shows is that the "colluding masses" were not prosecuted.

There were many political and diplomatic reasons for that.

It wasn't because of a judicial inability. It was because it wasn't useful.

Quote:

So, is it harder 'to keep the law' than to be a Christian?

What has that to do with the claim you continue to fail to support?

Quote:

This illustrates that any degenerate moron can 'keep the law' without any problem.

It really doesn't illustrate anything at all.

But you just keep telling yourself it does. It seems to make you feel better.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."

Last edited by quadraginta; 19th July 2017 at 11:26 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 12:30 AM   #1736
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,883
Speaking of religion and opposition to the Nazis, the ONLY high ranking member of the NSDAP who was excommunicated by the RCC during the war was Goebbels, for marrying a divorced protestant. Which shows us

A) that the church was feeling secure enough tho officially excommunicate a minister of the Reich, but
B) yeah, THAT is what their priorities were.

I'm utterly unimpressed with the supposed moral fiber that comes from religion, really. In fact, it's more of an illustration of what's wrong with counting on religion for that. Their priorities actually were that other religions, or really even sects of the same religion are bad, not that you're somehow supposed to oppose killing members of those bad religions.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 20th July 2017 at 12:32 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 09:55 AM   #1737
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, is it harder 'to keep the law' than to be a Christian?
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What has that to do with the claim you continue to fail to support?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This illustrates that any degenerate moron can 'keep the law' without any problem.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It really doesn't illustrate anything at all.

But you just keep telling yourself it does.* It seems to make you feel better.
The OP Vixen keeps referring to is this post by acbytesla where he is asking about religious laws, NOT civil laws:


Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Thanks. It so much tougher being a Jew compared to being a Christian. How does anyone keep all those laws? And why would you want to?

And while Jesus did say that he wasn't changing a jot or a tittle of the law, Christians don't even try since Jesus has them covered.
Vixen "answered" with a long, mostly illogical/irrelevant post, which also contained this paragraph at the end:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is considered more gracious than someone who keeps the law but never comes to any wisdom. For example, an ordinary German citizen acting as a prison camp guard was entirely obeying the law and following orders (one reason eight million Germans could not be tried for war crimes is because it was not against the law at the time).
Not only does this have nothing to do with religious law, (the post topic she was "responding" to) it is totally mistaken about WWII German citizens.

Naturally posters in this thread, who are actually knowlegable about WWII Germany, tried to correct Vixen.

We know how well that usually goes.

Vixen seems to be saying that being a Christian is better than following civil laws......or something. Because......something.

Last edited by Zivan; 20th July 2017 at 09:58 AM.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 10:01 AM   #1738
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 14,542
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Religion is primitive magic and superstition.

You're just impressed when it's wearing pretty new clothes.
Yes

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Like transubstantiation? or Ikons literally being somehow the essence of the saints?

Or Moses turning a staff into a snake? Or speaking in tongues?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 04:24 PM   #1739
Humots
Critical Thinker
 
Humots's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Wow. He was still the spiritual leader of roughly half the German people.


And being brought up catholic means he was free of antisemitism? Hell, the RCC only denounced their antisemitism after Auschwitz.

Matthew 27:25: "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

They're Christ killers, after all. That's been Christian doctrine for nearly 2,000 years, in whatever denomination.

Ah, but according to Vixen (see http://www.internationalskeptics.com...post11757711):

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is a reference to the general baying mob, some of whom just happened to be Jewish (hey, it is Jerusalem, where hordes had gathered on their Passover pilgrimage). Yes, Pontius Pilate was weak and ineffective. However, if you ask any typical hoi polloi crowd, 'What shall we do with this here felon?' they will respond in true lynch mob style.

It is not a comment on the crowd's Judaism, but a damnation of mass crowd mentality.

Highlighting mine. I asked:

Originally Posted by Humots View Post
As for the statement highlighted above, you are saying that there were only a few Jews in a crowd "gathered on their Passover pilgrimage" in Jerusalem?

Who else besides Jews celebrate Passover? And what percentage of the population of Jerusalem were not Jews?

She didn't respond.

How about now, Vixen?
Humots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 11:20 PM   #1740
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,883
Actually, here's a better question. That mob is not a random sample of the population in Jerusalem. That mob is there to be outraged and demand righteous punishment on a heretic. So here's the question: why would ANY non-jew be in that mob at all?

I mean, it's not just a question of why would they waste a day trying to get a guy nailed for breaking a religion they don't even believe in. But we're talking a city where sicarii zealots were shanking people left an right for being the wrong religion, and even for giving the heathens the time of day. And around a holy date when such fanatics were the most butthurt. And in a lynch mob which is butthurt about heresy.

And not only that, but a mob which is annoying the local governor too. Who has been known before to respond with swift brutality to such mobs. (Cf both Josephus and Philo.)

Does that sound like a sane place to be if you're a heathen in that town? WHY would you want to be in a group which both might remember that you too need a good lynching for being a heathen, AND which might get suppressed by the Romans? Or would you rather keep your head low if you don't, in fact, have any reason to be butthurt by Jesus's teaching against the laws of moses?

I mean, it's like being, dunno, a Christian in an ISIS lynch mob in Mosul that tries to get someone stoned for apostasy. Chances are equally good that you'll have problems with the government as that the rest of the lynch mob might remember that you ain't exactly a muslim either. WHY would you be there?

Now mind you, I'm pretty sure that the incident in the bible didn't actually happen, but just saying... If one takes the bible at face value, there's no sane way to take that section as anything else but trying to blame the Jews.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:26 AM   #1741
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
First, you seem to have a very quaint notion of what a "long word" is. It's not long, at least not for German. Second, it surprises me that with your research you'd forget such a basic word.


You have a serious reading comprehension problem. I didn't speak of killing squads targeting the SS, I spoke of SS killing squads; qualitatively the same as the Einsatzgruppen (whose orders came from Heydrich and Himmler, not from Hitler, but never mind).

Their orders coming from the highest echelons of the Nazi state doesn't make them legal. They rounded up Jews and mass-murdered them. That was obviously against international law. Here's the The Hague Convention IV of 1907, the Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, Annex, art. 23:

That was the law of war, and they broke it. It doesn't matter one iota if the order came from Heydrich, Himmler or Hitler personally; the people who carried it out, carried out an illegal order and they knew it.
And those persons who carried out those orders - an issue you keep evading - number tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands 'ordinary citizens'.

It became legal by common law practice.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:29 AM   #1742
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
See my answer above. German law does not matter one iota. The vast majority of the Holocaust was carried out outside Germany's borders, in conquered territory. Mass murdering people in conquered territory was against the (unwritten) rules of war long before the The Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 put that in writing.
That has to be euphemism of the week.

So Germany 'deported' millions of Jews and others to concentration camps outside of Germany, so this proves Jews in Germany were not eliminated in Germany and therefore no laws were broken within German jurisdiction.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:30 AM   #1743
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It sounds as if you've been watching reruns of 'Allo 'Allo.
I can honestly say, I have never watched that programme apart from seeing the odd clip.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:33 AM   #1744
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Wow. He was still the spiritual leader of roughly half the German people.


And being brought up catholic means he was free of antisemitism? Hell, the RCC only denounced their antisemitism after Auschwitz.

Matthew 27:25: "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

They're Christ killers, after all. That's been Christian doctrine for nearly 2,000 years, in whatever denomination.
I was disappointed to see Luther write what he did in the 16th Century.

However, the Christian doctrine is, as stated in the New Testament, and as supported by history of the Romans, who did indeed crucify large numbers of people, it was the Romans who crucified Christ.

The Sanhedrin were disapproving of Christ, sure.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:02 AM   #1745
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Your comment in fact was Now give me examples of what you mean, as religious opponents are rightly also honoured, including the White Rose.

But the comment about Russians I really thought was a joke or an aberration of your mind. The bloodiest part of the struggle against the Nazis was the war resulting from Hitler's attack on the USSR and the subsequent four year war, in which the USSR lost upwards of twenty million dead.

Out of every ten German soldiers killed in WW2, nine were killed by the Red Army. This is not hot air. I thought your post was utterly ridiculous and I'm at a loss to know what you meant by it. Please enlighten me.
I wasn't talking about military strategy. It's about civil resistance by ordinary people.

I was thinking of the recent cinema release, 'Alone in Berlin', based on a book by Hans Fallada, whilst incarcerated in a mental institution in Germany during the Nazi-era, Every man dies alone'. I am not sure if Lost in Berlin a similar novel - insofar it is about a couple who leaflet Berlin against the Nazis - is based on this, too.

Quote:
Most notable of these critics was Fallada's contemporary Thomas Mann, who had fled Nazi repression early on and lived abroad. He expressed harsh condemnation for writers like Fallada, who though opponents of Nazism made concessions which compromised their work.

“It may be superstitious belief, but in my eyes, any books which could be printed at all in Germany between 1933 and 1945 are worse than worthless and not objects one wishes to touch. A stench of blood and shame attaches to them. They should all be pulped.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Fallada

An even less charitable source says:

Quote:
The author of the book collaborated secretly with the nazis in running a creative school based on his fame, and encouraging new young authors to be critical, and then , of course they get arrested.

In the true story that his was based on , the pair were caught and blamed each other in begging for their lives. Real life.

End of war, the Russians thought the book would be good to show how communists, working class people etc resisted the nazis and the author adapted the story as 'propaganda' . like media stories now, slanted a certain way? Readers never get full relevant facts, just those(very adapted) that support the agenda of those presenting the story. It's bad enough getting the lies in the media, to get it in a supposedly entertainment form is annoying?
(private comment)

Fallada, it is said was forced to collaborate with the Nazis, as a well-known author. Just before his death, he wrote the aforesaid book, condemning them.

Has history been revised to show Fallada a 'good guy' because of this book/film where a couple get executed for pamphletting, based loosely on a true story, hence no plagiarism, by the lady who wrote 'Lost in Berlin' or is the truth simply the 'reds' using Fallada as anti-Nazi propaganda after the event [of victory]?

Members of the White Rose were executed for similar activity and a poster here commented that their resistance was a waste of time, in the end.

Wikipedia further writes:

Quote:
In September 1935 Fallada was officially declared an "undesirable author", a designation that banned his work from being translated and published abroad. His novel Old Heart Goes A-Journeying caused him problems with the Reich Literary Chamber because it had Christianity instead of Nazism as the unifier of the people.[8]

Although this order was repealed a few months later, it was at this point that his writing shifted from an artistic endeavor to merely a much needed source of income, writing "children's stories and harmless fairy tales" that would also conveniently avoid the unwanted attention of the Nazis.

During this time the prospect of emigration held a constant place in Fallada's mind, although he was reluctant because of his love of Germany.
As we saw above, he never did emigrate.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11

Last edited by Vixen; Today at 07:05 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:30 AM   #1746
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Actually, that isn't far from the truth. First, Luther was an ant-Semite. Second, it was Luther who seems to have had the greatest influence on the German version of filial piety and obedience to authority. For a better and fuller discussion see the opening chapters of Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

This signature is intended to irritate people.
I agree anti-semitism was brewing in central Europe a long time before the rise of nazism and the rise of fascism triggered by galloping inflation.

The churches were indeed insular, even in Norawy up until circa the early 20th century, you could not be a citizen - and the same applied to all nordic countries - unless you were a Christian. So in other words, if you were Jewish, and you wanted to claim citizenship, you had to keep quiet about your true religion and forego any Jewish congregation (an essential part of Jewish religious life).

Even in Finland after a later compromise there were only three 'congregations', one in each of the major cities.

Christianity was a core concept of many of these countries (look at their flags) and indeed, Sweden was founded as an independent nation after the Stockholm Bloodbath, which was about breaking away from the Kalmar Union, but also a break with Papal rule from Rome, thanks to Luther's reformation movement (Protestantism). So their ban on non-Protestant religions is paralleled by Henry VIII's dissolution of the monastaries and similar massive conflicts throughout Europe.

The anti-semitism is a complex mix of cultural conflict, economics (land ownership or prohibition thereof), language, religion (=which all go to make up national identity and hegemony).

We cannot say that a Christian Germany, as opposed to the pagan Third Reich one, would not have led to the genocides but we can say that a rejection of Christian values gave way to the depraved behaviour of the Nazis.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:35 AM   #1747
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
The OP Vixen keeps referring to is this post by acbytesla where he is asking about religious laws, NOT civil laws:




Vixen "answered" with a long, mostly illogical/irrelevant post, which also contained this paragraph at the end:



Not only does this have nothing to do with religious law, (the post topic she was "responding" to) it is totally mistaken about WWII German citizens.

Naturally posters in this thread, who are actually knowlegable about WWII Germany, tried to correct Vixen.

We know how well that usually goes.

Vixen seems to be saying that being a Christian is better than following civil laws......or something. Because......something.
Cultural laws lead to statutory ones. For example, marriage, birth and death being the most basic and hereditary rights.

We see quite a lot in the early Bible about jacob and his brothers and their squabbles over inheritance.

So once a religious law, now a law enshrined in a statute.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:37 AM   #1748
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,351
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I was disappointed to see Luther write what he did in the 16th Century.
Why?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
However, the Christian doctrine is, as stated in the New Testament, and as supported by history of the Romans, who did indeed crucify large numbers of people, it was the Romans who crucified Christ.
There is no evidence that the christ of the holey babble ever existed.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Sanhedrin were disapproving of Christ, sure.
How could they be so given there is no evidence any such person existed?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:41 AM   #1749
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Humots View Post
Ah, but according to Vixen (see http://www.internationalskeptics.com...post11757711):




Highlighting mine. I asked:




She didn't respond.

How about now, Vixen?
As explained in the New Testament, Jesus upset the Jewish elders. The Jews looked to their elders for lead. When Pontius Pilate asked the crowds, who yes, would have been the greater part Jewish just before Passover, 'Who do you want to choose between Jesus and Barrabus', (who appears to have been some kind of political prisoner), they looked towards the Sanhedrin, who despised Jesus because he called them out on their hypocrisy and fake piousness - standing on street corners ostentatioulsy praying, and making sure they had the best seats in the synagogue - and noting their stony silence, in the matter, did their usual lynch-mob baying and wailing.

So yes, the Sanhedrin could have saved Jesus, but they did not.

However, it was the Romans who are responsible for his crucifixion.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:46 AM   #1750
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, here's a better question. That mob is not a random sample of the population in Jerusalem. That mob is there to be outraged and demand righteous punishment on a heretic. So here's the question: why would ANY non-jew be in that mob at all?

I mean, it's not just a question of why would they waste a day trying to get a guy nailed for breaking a religion they don't even believe in. But we're talking a city where sicarii zealots were shanking people left an right for being the wrong religion, and even for giving the heathens the time of day. And around a holy date when such fanatics were the most butthurt. And in a lynch mob which is butthurt about heresy.

And not only that, but a mob which is annoying the local governor too. Who has been known before to respond with swift brutality to such mobs. (Cf both Josephus and Philo.)

Does that sound like a sane place to be if you're a heathen in that town? WHY would you want to be in a group which both might remember that you too need a good lynching for being a heathen, AND which might get suppressed by the Romans? Or would you rather keep your head low if you don't, in fact, have any reason to be butthurt by Jesus's teaching against the laws of moses?

I mean, it's like being, dunno, a Christian in an ISIS lynch mob in Mosul that tries to get someone stoned for apostasy. Chances are equally good that you'll have problems with the government as that the rest of the lynch mob might remember that you ain't exactly a muslim either. WHY would you be there?

Now mind you, I'm pretty sure that the incident in the bible didn't actually happen, but just saying... If one takes the bible at face value, there's no sane way to take that section as anything else but trying to blame the Jews.
We have to bear in mind that Jesus was an observing Jew. He went through all the Jewish rituals. He was hardly a heathen. He called out the Jewish elders on their hypocrisy, much like youngster do today on our seedy politicians.

In addition, at that time in history, the Romans had a tacit understanding with the Jews. As long as they paid their taxes, the Romans would not interfere in their religion (the sacking of Jerusalem came circa AD90).

So, there was nothing dangerous about being a Jew in Roman-occupied territory. Early Christians were virtually 100% Jewish. (NB they were not called Christians, Jesus called his teaching 'The Way')
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 07:57 AM   #1751
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Why?

There is no evidence that the christ of the holey babble ever existed.

How could they be so given there is no evidence any such person existed?
As we now know (hindsight is a fine thing) hate speech is horrible.

The Sanhedrin, as described in the New Testament.

Pontius Pilate did exist, an archealogical dig in recent times uncovered a plaque referring to the prelate Pontius Pilate in that era and Josephus - an ancient Jewish historian - mentions Jesus, too.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:13 AM   #1752
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,351
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As explained in the New Testament, Jesus upset the Jewish elders. The Jews looked to their elders for lead. When Pontius Pilate asked the crowds, who yes, would have been the greater part Jewish just before Passover, 'Who do you want to choose between Jesus and Barrabus', (who appears to have been some kind of political prisoner), they looked towards the Sanhedrin, who despised Jesus because he called them out on their hypocrisy and fake piousness - standing on street corners ostentatioulsy praying, and making sure they had the best seats in the synagogue - and noting their stony silence, in the matter, did their usual lynch-mob baying and wailing.

So yes, the Sanhedrin could have saved Jesus, but they did not.

However, it was the Romans who are responsible for his crucifixion.
How do you know that?

None of the NT authors ever saw jesus let alone spoke to him or witnessed any of the described events.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:17 AM   #1753
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,351
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As we now know (hindsight is a fine thing) hate speech is horrible.
You mean like modern christians?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Sanhedrin, as described in the New Testament.
You realise that those accounts are mere hearsay, right?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Pontius Pilate did exist, an archealogical dig in recent times uncovered a plaque referring to the prelate Pontius Pilate in that era
Strawman. Nobody cares about PP until suddenly, you raise him for no reason. PP is known to be a real figure. Nobody here has even raised that as an issue except YOU.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
and Josephus - an ancient Jewish historian - mentions Jesus, too.
No he doesn't. That was a later fake retcon added by the church to bolster their baseless claims. Go look it up if you don't believe me.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:03 AM   #1754
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Cultural laws lead to statutory ones. For example, marriage, birth and death being the most basic and hereditary rights.

We see quite a lot in the early Bible about jacob and his brothers and their squabbles over inheritance.

So once a religious law, now a law enshrined in a statute.
Death is a basic "right"? What happens if someone is denied the basic right of death? They are not allowed to die?

Anyway, what does anything in your post have to do with the 613 mitzvot that religious jews are to follow, but christians are "free" from and do not follow?

Which is what the post by acbytesla was asking about.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:25 AM   #1755
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When Pontius Pilate asked the crowds, who yes, would have been the greater part Jewish just before Passover, 'Who do you want to choose between Jesus and Barrabus', (who appears to have been some kind of political prisoner),
The name is "Jesus Barabbas".

"Barabbas" (בר אבא) is Aramaic and translated means "son of the father", which is an aramaic idiom for "son of God". Curious that one prisoner was called "Jesus the Christ", and the other prisoner was called "Jesus son of God".

From the NIV:

Matthew 27:16
"At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus Barabbas."

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
they looked towards the Sanhedrin, who despised Jesus because he called them out on their hypocrisy and fake piousness - standing on street corners ostentatioulsy praying, and making sure they had the best seats in the synagogue - and noting their stony silence, in the matter, did their usual lynch-mob baying and wailing.

So yes, the Sanhedrin could have saved Jesus, but they did not.
You appear not to know that the sanhedrin was the 'Supreme Court' and the entire NT story about the alledged "trial of Jesus" is entirely bogus.

-The sanhedrin was never held at night.

-The sanhedrin was never held on shabbat or festivals.

-The sanhedrin never met in a private home.

-At the time of the alledged "trial" of jesus, no High Priest presided. It was presided over by a "nasi" (president). At the time of the alledged "trial" of jesus, the nasi was a man named Hillel. He was not a priest.

- There was NO custom to release a prisoner of the crowd's choice at Passover.

And many more such historical facts regarding the sanhedrin that show this alledged "trial" in the NT never happen.

Last edited by Zivan; Today at 11:17 AM.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:35 AM   #1756
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
(the sacking of Jerusalem came circa AD90).
70 ce.

Basic history.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:48 AM   #1757
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,351
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Death is a basic "right"? What happens if someone is denied the basic right of death? They are not allowed to die?
I had a basic right to be born? And to die? Do we know of any way whereby these "basic rights" are ever violated? Why yes, we do. God himself then violates those "basic rights" all the time. Heaven/Hell for eternity ring any bells?

I don't think vixen has thought this one through.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:50 AM   #1758
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I had a basic right to be born? And to die? Do we know of any way whereby these "basic rights" are ever violated? Why yes, we do. God himself then violates those "basic rights" all the time. Heaven/Hell for eternity ring any bells?

I don't think vixen has thought this one through.
^Exactly
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:45 AM   #1759
Beady
Philosopher
 
Beady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,524
Has this thread lost focus?

This signature is intended to irritate people.
__________________
Ahh, screw it!
Beady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.